Devon & Filton banks - could electrification on uphill sections be possible?

[Hartington]

As I understand it the proposal to acquire more Hitachi trains to replace HSTs to Devon and Cornwall is actually for "IEP alikes". In particular, they will have the same diesel engines but there will be no power in reserve as (apparently) there is on "real" IEPs.

Would it be fesible to electrify Newton Abbot to Plymouth so that they had sufficient power "plus a bit in reserve"?

I can't see any problems that haven't been solved elsewhere.

Yes, there's a cost and I can't see it being given the go-ahead (yet) but are there any real killer technical resons why it wouldn't work?

 

[snowball]

Looking at OS Landranger mapping there are about 5 places where high voltage lines cross the route or run alongside it, including one near Newton Abbott and one near Plympton, so feeder sites are potentially available.

 

[fgwrich]

Dainton may only just have sufficient clearance (depending or not on weather the mouth is typical Brunelian in having a larger mouth leading to a smaller bore) and Marley Tunnels would have to be lowered or completely removed as they still remain as a pair of rather narrow single bore tunnels.

 

[Chris125]

Presumably the Voyagers need all their engines working on the Devon Banks, so presumably the AT300s will be no different - electrification would be entirely possible but I can't see how it would be justified on that basis, and certainly not a priority.

 

[LateThanNever]

Presumably the Voyagers need all their engines working on the Devon Banks, so presumably the AT300s will be no different - electrification would be entirely possible but I can't see how it would be justified on that basis, and certainly not a priority.

Quite. Tilt would be a much better investment!

 

[455driver]

Presumably the Voyagers need all their engines working on the Devon Banks,

No they don't!

so presumably the AT300s will be no different - electrification would be entirely possible but I can't see how it would be justified on that basis, and certainly not a priority.

Presumably no they wont either!

 

[HowardGWR]

No they don't!

May I presume that is because the curvature of the track prevents higher speed? If so, then the tilt suggestion seems to be a way forward. Forgetting Torbay and the LSWR route, is there a way around Dartmoor that does not involve much curvature? Don't tell me, it's the A38! (Actually, the Okehampton route is potentially very fast on the northern stretch - dead straight).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Would it be fesible to electrify Newton Abbot to Plymouth so that they had sufficient power "plus a bit in reserve"?

I am sure I recall there was a study done about 70 years ago or more that suggested rather than conventional wisdom of starting in London and electrifying to Penzance, actually start in the South West of England and work forwards exactly because of the Devon Banks.

I love the idea but politicians will not I fear.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Dainton may only just have sufficient clearance (depending or not on weather the mouth is typical Brunelian in having a larger mouth leading to a smaller bore) and Marley Tunnels would have to be lowered or completely removed as they still remain as a pair of rather narrow single bore tunnels.

Network Rail do now own a rather fetching tunnel (re)boring machine, in the shape of "Fillie", the Farnworth Tunnel boring machine.

Don't be too surprised if it makes a few notable appearances in the plans for Control Period 6 or 7; there are a number of tunnels on the network which are drifting towards being life expired as it is (Farnworth was one such example) so rebuilding will have to happen in places.

The machine has an 8 metre diameter, so you get electrification clearance even if it's not immediately needed.

 

[dk1]

Presumably the Voyagers need all their engines working on the Devon Banks, so presumably the AT300s will be no different - electrification would be entirely possible but I can't see how it would be justified on that basis, and certainly not a priority.

Voyagers can easily lose an engine, possibly two on a 5-car & keep relative time. That's why the XC examples are one of, if not the most reliable IC unit in the UK.

 

[jimm]

May I presume that is because the curvature of the track prevents higher speed? If so, then the tilt suggestion seems to be a way forward. Forgetting Torbay and the LSWR route, is there a way around Dartmoor that does not involve much curvature? Don't tell me, it's the A38! (Actually, the Okehampton route is potentially very fast on the northern stretch - dead straight).

Is this some A38 I don't know about, because in places it's a pretty testing bit of road between Exeter and Plymouth.

Rail and road journey times between Exeter and Plymouth are much the same anyway, never mind that the AA reckons driving from Paddington to Plymouth will take you four hours, which even the trains calling at Berks and Hants stations beat comfortably.

On the original point, as long as you threw enough money at it, there's no obvious reason that you couldn't wire a bit of the line in Devon, but it's hardly going to be a priority, especially in current circumstances.

 

[Colind]

This interesting stretch of line was designed by Brunel as part of his Atmospheric Railway, though problems with the technology meant it was never used west of Newton Abbot. A route was chosen which had a profile suitable for atmospheric operation: long climbs followed by long descents, minimising the number of changes of direction of gradient and therefore the number of separate lengths of pipe.

Stay with me, I promise this isn't off topic!

This has left us with a route that starts at sea level at Plymouth, climbs steeply to a summit, and falls steeply back to sea level at Totnes. Then the same again between Totnes and Newton Abbot.

Wouldn't it be good to exploit Brunel's legacy in the 21st century? Electrify just the uphill stretches: 4 lengths of wiring, 2 in each direction, a total of 30 miles or so. We know the trains are capable of switching between electric and diesel power at line speed. Brunel intended freewheeling down the other side, though these days you'd want to start the diesel engines.

Benefits are exploiting the maximum potential of the new trains on this difficult route at least cost, without the trouble and expense of procuring a small non-standard fleet, different from the other IEP bi-modes. Cost could be offset against the eventual electrification of the whole route.

It won't happen, of course!

 

[30907]

I am sure I recall there was a study done about 70 years ago or more that suggested rather than conventional wisdom of starting in London and electrifying to Penzance, actually start in the South West of England and work forwards exactly because of the Devon Banks.

I think the GWR came up with this or similar in the 30s - I suspect because government money was being made available. Can't easily find a reference online, sorry.

 

[snowball]

Electrify just the uphill stretches

If you electrified the downhill too you could get the benefit of regenerative braking.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think the GWR came up with this or similar in the 30s - I suspect because government money was being made available. Can't easily find a reference online, sorry.

My info was that it was because they wanted to negotiate lower prices from the coal factors. I can't remember where I read it - I've just too many books on that company! (I wish those were all digitised, then I could have had an instant reference to give you).

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Presumably the Voyagers need all their engines working on the Devon Banks, so presumably the AT300s will be no different - electrification would be entirely possible but I can't see how it would be justified on that basis, and certainly not a priority.

Several years ago a voyager only had 3 engines running, it made it as far as Luxulyan Valley (long stretch of 1 in 37 and severe speed restrictions) on the Newquay Branch.

Imo a cost effective method of electrification in Devon & Cornwall would be battery/ bi mode type trains, and have short stretches of OHE. Eg in stations (charging batteries) and up to a mile after, steep banks etc where maximum power required.

 

[MarkyT]

My info was that it was because they wanted to negotiate lower prices from the coal factors. I can't remember where I read it - I've just too many books on that company! (I wish those were all digitised, then I could have had an instant reference to give you).

In steam days all trains stopped at Newton Abbot where a pilot locomotive was usually attached to all but the lightest loads, so changing engines completely wouldn't have added to journey time. Electrification would have saved significant numbers of steam locomotives as well as manpower back then. Wet and hilly Devon might have offered the opportunies to generate some traction power from hydro-electric stations perhaps, and with DC traction simple regen techniques could have been employed as on the Woodhead route.

 

[snowball]

and have short stretches of OHE.

If you have short sections of OHE how do you get the power to them?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If you electrified the downhill too you could get the benefit of regenerative braking.

exactamundo

 

[Cliveblackpool]

If you have short sections of OHE how do you get the power to them?

National grid! Towns have a decent supply eg Newton Abbot probably 4m stretch, Dainton has a Aggregate quarry nearby substation. Hemerdon there is a gas fired power station not far away. Rattery - Totnes again 4m (2 grid lines cross the railway one above the tunnel, the other near where the A385 crosses the railway)
Regenerative braking on the down hill stretches is good!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If you have short sections of OHE how do you get the power to them?[/QUOTE

National grid! Towns have a decent supply eg Newton Abbot probably 4m stretch, Dainton has a Aggregate quarry nearby substation. Hemerdon there is a gas fired power station not far away. Rattery - Totnes again 4m (2 grid lines cross the railway one above the tunnel, the other near where the A385 crosses the railway)
Regenerative braking on the down hill stretches is good!

The problem with this is you need grid feeder stations etc - they are not cheap. Might as well have a longer stretch of OHLE.

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't it be good to exploit Brunel's legacy in the 21st century? Electrify just the uphill stretches: 4 lengths of wiring, 2 in each direction, a total of 30 miles or so. We know the trains are capable of switching between electric and diesel power at line speed. Brunel intended freewheeling down the other side, though these days you'd want to start the diesel engines.

We could call it "roller coaster mode"!

 

[snowball]

National grid! Towns have a decent supply eg Newton Abbot probably 4m stretch, Dainton has a Aggregate quarry nearby substation. Hemerdon there is a gas fired power station not far away. Rattery - Totnes again 4m (2 grid lines cross the railway one above the tunnel, the other near where the A385 crosses the railway)
Regenerative braking on the down hill stretches is good!

Feeds from the grid are expensive. On a normal electrified line they only occur at quite long intervals. I think they're about every 30 miles on the southern WCML. Not everything that looks like a feeder station is one - some are just track sectioning stations. If there was one near Newton Abbott and one near Plymouth, I suspect another one in between could not be justified.

 

[Busaholic]

I am sure I recall there was a study done about 70 years ago or more that suggested rather than conventional wisdom of starting in London and electrifying to Penzance, actually start in the South West of England and work forwards exactly because of the Devon Banks.

I love the idea but politicians will not I fear.

About fifteen years ago a petition was around in the Penzance area to secure electrification from there to Plymouth. I did try to point out to the promoter of the petition that any time gained in Cornwall would be lost on the transfer to non-electrified trains at Plymouth, and more beside, but it fell on deaf ears. He'd got another five minutes of uncritical fame in the local paper and probably a few more votes from the more unthinking of his constituents.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

About fifteen years ago a petition was around in the Penzance area to secure electrification from there to Plymouth. I did try to point out to the promoter of the petition that any time gained in Cornwall would be lost on the transfer to non-electrified trains at Plymouth, and more beside, but it fell on deaf ears. He'd got another five minutes of uncritical fame in the local paper and probably a few more votes from the more unthinking of his constituents.

Surely IEPe demolishes that argument.

 

[455driver]

Surely IEPe demolishes that argument.

Yeah because dragging 20 tonnes of diesel engines around is soooo environmentally friendly.

This also applies to dragging 15 tonnes of transformer around when running on diesel!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can think of 2 electrification schemes which were installed just for the hilly sections of a route and not the whole length.
They were far bigger than the route over the Devon banks.

The Milwaukee Road (CM&StP) electrified its western extension to Seattle in two long sections, over the Rockies and Cascades, in 1916. The rest of the line was steam/diesel worked.
The electrified sections continued in service until 1972, when the equipment became life expired.
The whole route (apart from the odd section worked as a branch from other lines) is closed and gone now, after the Milwaukee Road's bankruptcy in 1980.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago,_Milwaukee,_St._Paul_and_Pacific_Railroad

In New Zealand, the North Island Main Trunk line was electrified from Palmerston North to Hamilton over the mountain section in 1988, leaving relatively short gaps north into Auckland and south into Wellington.
It is still in operation, but the health of main-line railways in NZ is precarious.
The line is worked by Class EF electric locos built by Brush Traction at Loughborough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Island_Main_Trunk

 

[HSTEd]

If you have short sections of OHE how do you get the power to them?

There are at least four 400kV circuits going as far west as Luxulyan (which is one of the reasons it was proposed as a site for a PWR during the 80s).

A 400kV circuit could handle a single phase traction load with no problem at all, and its sufficiently close that you could put the substation adjacent to the power line and run 25kV across country if necessary.

 

[snowball]

There are at least four 400kV circuits going as far west as Luxulyan (which is one of the reasons it was proposed as a site for a PWR during the 80s).

A 400kV circuit could handle a single phase traction load with no problem at all, and its sufficiently close that you could put the substation adjacent to the power line and run 25kV across country if necessary.

Cliveblackpool was proposing several short sections of OLE. To feed them you'd either need several feeder stations (which would worsen the economics of his proposal compared with straight electrification, which would have fewer feeder stations) or else you'd need to connect them with 25kV lines running along the railway. But if you're going to do that...

 

[HSTEd]

Cliveblackpool was proposing several short sections of OLE. To feed them you'd either need several feeder stations (which would worsen the economics of his proposal compared with straight electrification, which would have fewer feeder stations) or else you'd need to connect them with 25kV lines running along the railway. But if you're going to do that...

A 33kV single circuit line on wooden poles costs £30-50k/km. A 25kV line would cost less a similar amount - you could even have a three conductor 25-0-25kV line if you wanted more range.
That is essentially negligible compared to the costs of electrification, even on a single track line, let alone double track.

And that is before you consider that the line would not have to run along the railway, it could run in a straight line between subsequent electrified sections.