Southern Axes Catering?

[DarloRich]

RMT, ASLEF, and possibly TSSA?

I wouldn't put TSSA in the militant bracket unless you mean militantly polite

ASLEF aren't really publicly militant either, they just quietly go about their businesses of representing their members interests and getting decent results. RMT are much more vociferous!

Back on topic: I am surprised the trolleys have lasted so long! although the people i really feel sorry for are those facing the sack on short notice

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, Southern are in principle right - station catering facilities, particularly in and around London, are far better than they ever were, with a wide range of quality take away food. Only thing I've bought from a trolley anything like recently is a coffee and a choccy bar, and selling a few passengers those won't keep them going, sadly.

I agree it is a shame for the hard-working and generally low-paid employees, though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Its called offering the best deal to the Treasury - scrapping loss making catering services enables the company to provide that best deal.

Yes, a race to the bottom in terms of performance. It is absolutely no coincidence that all of the worst franchises in the UK for passenger satisfaction are operated by GoVia.

When passengers in St Albans are lamenting the loss of First Capital Connect, you know GoVia are plumbing new depths.

There are no dodgy deals in rail franchising.

Of course not. Our civil servants are paragons of virtue and probity, as a quick scan of the back pages of Private Eye will tell you every two weeks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, a race to the bottom in terms of performance. It is absolutely no coincidence that all of the worst franchises in the UK for passenger satisfaction are operated by GoVia.

When passengers in St Albans are lamenting the loss of First Capital Connect, you know GoVia are plumbing new depths.

I'm really not 100% sure about that.

I must admit in my own personal travel I only ever tend to buy coffee and chocolate from trolleys, and rarely anything else, not even often that. Soft drinks, water, food etc I always buy before boarding. I often like to deliberately break my journey up[1][2] once it goes over about 2 hours, so half an hour at a selected intermediate station allows a stock-up.

The one exception to that is that there are longer journeys when I'd probably quite happily pay well over the odds for a sit-down meal on proper crockery etc. A DB-style Bistro would be perfect - but with that you're not so much paying for the food as the experience.

[1] Not BoJ, as I'll normally choose a larger station and mostly won't leave it. But even so same day BoJ prohibitions on walk-up tickets are rarely if ever enforced.

[2] Often at New St, as it's a convenient change point for many journeys, so I'm looking forward to the poshing up being finished!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm really not 100% sure about that.

I must admit in my own personal travel I only ever tend to buy coffee and chocolate from trolleys, and rarely anything else, not even often that. Soft drinks, water, food etc I always buy before boarding.

It's not just sales that are affected though, I think the removal of first class complimentary snacks is a fairly bad thing. You only have to look at the number of complaints London Midland receive on Twitter from people who've paid extra for first class and get nothing for it. I don't think it does London Midland's image any good when you consider the other trains with first class from Liverpool and Birmingham give you snacks and drinks at the very least.

In terms of whether I buy anything, it depends on how long the journey is. I tend to be similar, buying coffee and chocolate (the sandwiches tend to be poor quality), but then the margins on a cup of instant coffee are pretty good- Costco sell the sachets of Starbucks Via coffee for about 30-40p per unit, and I'm sure the TOC's suppliers are even cheaper, yet the retail price is at the £2-£2.50 mark.

I always thought a trolley on Gatwick Express was a bit strange; the journey is barely half an hour, and you don't have a trolley on Heathrow Express which is more expensive. But the journeys to some of the Coastway stations can be the thick end of two hours, and I think the ability to buy a hot drink is a good thing. Even if you buy a coffee on the station it's cold by East Croydon on a Brighton train.

 

[transmanche]

It is absolutely no coincidence that all of the worst franchises in the UK for passenger satisfaction are operated by GoVia.

Hmmm...

% passengers satisfied or good:

72% Southern
74% Thameslink/Great Northern
75% Greater Anglia
75% Southeastern
79% Northern
80% SWT
81% FGW
84% London Midland
[...]

What that shows to me is that the big London commuter TOCs are always going to struggle to have high satisfaction rates, no matter who operates them.

Incidentally, London Midland and Southeastern showed marginal improvements over the previous two surveys. And as a comparison the figures for two commuter TOCs widely acknowledged as being good are:

87% London Overground
94% Merseyrail

Source: National Passenger Survey Spring 2015

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just sales that are affected though, I think the removal of first class complimentary snacks is a fairly bad thing. You only have to look at the number of complaints London Midland receive on Twitter from people who've paid extra for first class and get nothing for it. I don't think it does London Midland's image any good when you consider the other trains with first class from Liverpool and Birmingham give you snacks and drinks at the very least.

This is true especially given the 2+2 layout as well. TBH if I were LM I'd just follow Chiltern's DMUs and get rid of it if they can't be bothered giving it valid in its own right (i.e. 2+1 seating, in which case I might well cough up for it more often, as that is the main reason I tend to upgrade), but it's probably an effective ORCATS raid and a bit of extra income from commuters who pay for it for more chance of a seat.

Costco sell the sachets of Starbucks Via coffee for about 30-40p per unit, and I'm sure the TOC's suppliers are even cheaper, yet the retail price is at the £2-£2.50 mark.

I really don't like that stuff, it tastes "thick" because of the bits of grounds in it. Good quality filter is nicer, but if that stuff is all that's on offer I'll have tea instead.

I always thought a trolley on Gatwick Express was a bit strange; the journey is barely half an hour, and you don't have a trolley on Heathrow Express which is more expensive. But the journeys to some of the Coastway stations can be the thick end of two hours, and I think the ability to buy a hot drink is a good thing. Even if you buy a coffee on the station it's cold by East Croydon on a Brighton train.

I have bought a coffee on GatEx - usually if I'm using it I'm in a rush (else I'd be on Southern or Thameslink for cheaper) and so haven't got time to hang about buying in the station. It's also quite expensive so I'm surprised it's not profitable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What that shows to me is that the big London commuter TOCs are always going to struggle to have high satisfaction rates, no matter who operates them.

Yet both Chiltern Railways and c2c have significantly higher satisfaction rates than any of the GoVia franchises, and Overground (who operate the most intensive commuter-style system of anyone in London, with some of the worst overcrowding) have satisfaction rates 15 percentage points higher than that of Southern.

I know SouthEastern tried to claim that their satsifaction scores were so low because "people were unhappy at paying them to go somewhere they don't want to go", but that excuse shows more about the GoVia management than about public attitudes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What that shows to me is that the big London commuter TOCs are always going to struggle to have high satisfaction rates, no matter who operates them.

And also that those of us north of London generally have a better time of it (faster trains, more punctual/reliable, less overcrowding) than those south. I really don't mind LM. There are things they could do with fixing, but they really aren't the worst thing in the world. They get on with it reasonably well in the manner that Silverlink did before them while not charging completely outrageously for doing so, which leads me to suspect any operator would be about the same.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Arctic Troll, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about Govia.

c2c is a minute and isolated system, while passengers value frequency over comfort on London Overground. I really don't think it's fair to compare those two franchises with Govia's.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Arctic Troll, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about Govia.

Why, because I'm critical of them?

c2c is a minute and isolated system, while passengers value frequency over comfort on London Overground. I really don't think it's fair to compare those two franchises with Govia's.

Chiltern Railways have satisfaction ratings six percentage points higher than London Midland, despite serving pretty much the same market with pretty much the same mix of local, commuter and inter-urban services, and despite London Midland's rolling stock being significantly newer than Chiltern's.

Chiltern are a whopping eighteen percentage points better than Southern, sixteen points better than Thameslink and fifteen points better that SouthEastern.

c2c may be self-contained, but it isn't very long ago that it was known as the Misery Line yet now it's one of the best performing TOCs in London.

I think blaming the London market for poor customer satisfaction is nothing more than lazy excuse making from GoVia. That's something that figures given my experience of the last two years of London Midland commuting.

 

[DarloRich]

@ Artic Troll - wait till you get to Northern Land If you think LM are bad good luck finding the trolley on any Northern service (except the wonderful one on the S&C) or the coffee shop at most stations!

You will notice i don't complain much about southern services. Years of pacer travel in the north east reduce your expectations somewhat

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is perhaps my better experience of LM commuting (though I don't do it all the time) because I live further north and thus always get a seat, perhaps?

The same will apply of Chiltern. But the other thing about Chiltern is that their relatively fast Brum service is never going to be quite as bargain-basement as LM, and they also don't carry quite as many passengers nor run such an intensive service as the WCML.

And don't forget, I recall it was Chiltern that attempted to bring on the abolition of the Network Card.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

@ Artic Troll - wait till you get to Northern Land If you think LM are bad good luck finding the trolley on any Northern service (except the wonderful one on the S&C) or the coffee shop at most stations!

I'd imagine there is probably more business for the trolley on fTPE because stations are smaller and more rural and often don't have even a shop nearby.

When boarding around 6am at Altnabreac having wild-camped overnight I was very thankful of some trolley coffee

 

[Tetchytyke]

@ Artic Troll - wait till you get to Northern Land If you think LM are bad good luck finding the trolley on any Northern service (except the wonderful one on the S&C) or the coffee shop at most stations!

You will notice i don't complain much about southern services. Years of pacer travel in the north east reduce your expectations somewhat

I grew up in Shipley and then lived in Newcastle for over ten years. My commute was first on the Tyne Valley and then Newcastle-Durham before I moved down here. I'm well aware of what you get with Northern!

The lack of a trolley on commuter trains doesn't bother me at all; putting a trolley on a Tring or Milton Keynes stopper would be stupid. I think the lack of catering on Euston-Birmingham/Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool is a bit different though.

I also think the lack of catering is just a symptom of GoVia's penny-pinching attitude, it's not the only (or even the main) reason why I have precious little time for GoVia.

Is perhaps my better experience of LM commuting (though I don't do it all the time) because I live further north and thus always get a seat, perhaps?

I usually get a seat in both directions on my peak time commute, the only time I don't is when a train is short-formed or there's been disruption. And even if I don't get a seat, it's normally only as far as Harrow or Watford (depending on where the train stops first) and standing for 15 minutes isn't exactly a disaster. I stood for longer than that on the tube.

It's the penny-pinching that bothers me with London Midland, even more so when you think my season ticket costs the thick end of five grand a year. The ticket offices, even at Hemel and Berkhamsted, close very early (far earlier than what the published hours are) and you're treated like a criminal if you don't use the card-only TVM. Staffing at Apsley and Kings Langley is even more erratic than that because London Midland have no cover for staff sickness or holidays.

My biggest gripe is the off-peak meanness, running crush loaded 4-car trains on evenings and weekends because they're too cheap to pay Siemens for the extra miles. It's more common I don't get a seat on an off-peak train, which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

you're treated like a criminal if you don't use the card-only TVM

Not my experience. I once had a RTV I wanted to use so I boarded anyway and told the Euston barrier staff, they just sent me over to the ticket office to buy and asked me to pass the outward to them once I had. No mention of PFs, prosecution or any such nonsense.

That said, I can't see why I wouldn't use the TVM if I was paying by card. I usually do anyway. If paying cash (actually paying cash) I think they're fine with you paying at the destination - there is even a sign at Tring to that effect. The TVMs are card only because of break-ins - I believe the one at Bletchley was done over a few times when it took cash, and that isn't even a bad area.

Notably, the Cambs busway has gone back to "pay the driver" if paying cash, for similar reasons. Even though most of that route is *really* in nice areas or the middle of nowhere.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The barrier staff are generally OK, the RPIs are an absolute nightmare. I've had the "pleasure" of negotiating with them once after the Apsley office was shut, and it was enough. It was after that I got LM customer services to confirm in writing I can board without a ticket if I'm using cash or RTVs.

And yes, I do use the TVM if I'm using a card. I think that's reasonable, walking past the machine with a card is simply not on, but as much as anything, it saves the queue at the other end.

And back on topic, I think it is sad that GoVia don't see the benefit of catering on long-distance services, instead choosing to look at the catering profit and loss account in isolation. That sort of attitude isn't really fair on catering; in isolation it may not make money, especially as part of the service is free to first class ticket holders, but there are wider benefits to catering on trains. If it attracts leisure passengers from other modes or attracts people into upgrading to first class then it has a big benefit to the business.

 

[Bishopstone]

The particular issue I have is that I purchased a First Class season, amongst other reasons, because of the advertised benefit of a complimentary drink from the trolley.

This benefit is now being removed with four days notice. I realise, as with all other catering services in First Class, that being 'complimentary' it's not part of my contract with Southern, and they are legally entitled to act as they have done. I suspect if VTEC/VTWC etc removed First Class catering, there would be quite a bit of noise from season ticket holders, nonetheless.

Whatever the strict legal position, I would expect an organisation that aspires to treat customers fairly to allow me to exit from my contract without loss if they change the product benefits adversely, mid-term. In this case, I would expect a full pro-rata refund if I surrender my season ticket. Southern have refused to do this, and I am escalating the matter.

As a matter of common courtesy, I would also have expected to receive an expression of regret or apology from Southern at the removal of a benefit. They have a website, a Twitter account and they know where I live. Other than a bare factual statement, there has been no communication.

The decision may have been the right one, commercially, but the poor implementation again says a great deal about the absence of leadership at the top of this company.

 

[DarloRich]

I grew up in Shipley and then lived in Newcastle for over ten years. My commute was first on the Tyne Valley and then Newcastle-Durham before I moved down here. I'm well aware of what you get with Northern!

Ah - a southerner i see I ma sure you will notice a qualitiv......... you wont notice any changes LOL

The lack of a trolley on commuter trains doesn't bother me at all; putting a trolley on a Tring or Milton Keynes stopper would be stupid. I think the lack of catering on Euston-Birmingham/Crewe or Birmingham-Liverpool is a bit different though.

Agreed

I also think the lack of catering is just a symptom of GoVia's penny-pinching attitude, it's not the only (or even the main) reason why I have precious little time for GoVia.

Maybe - alternatively it is good business sense to pinch pennies and make pounds in profit

I usually get a seat in both directions on my peak time commute, the only time I don't is when a train is short-formed or there's been disruption. And even if I don't get a seat, it's normally only as far as Harrow or Watford (depending on where the train stops first) and standing for 15 minutes isn't exactly a disaster. I stood for longer than that on the tube.

Agreed again but you do need finely honed commuter skills at times ot make sure you get a seat!

It's the penny-pinching that bothers me with London Midland, even more so when you think my season ticket costs the thick end of five grand a year. The ticket offices, even at Hemel and Berkhamsted, close very early (far earlier than what the published hours are) and you're treated like a criminal if you don't use the card-only TVM. Staffing at Apsley and Kings Langley is even more erratic than that because London Midland have no cover for staff sickness or holidays.

Try getting a ticket at the gate line at Euston having arrived via the Marston Vale.

My biggest gripe is the off-peak meanness, running crush loaded 4-car trains on evenings and weekends because they're too cheap to pay Siemens for the extra miles. It's more common I don't get a seat on an off-peak train, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Whilst i agree i am led to believe the sums for out of course mileage are quite onerous.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The particular issue I have is that I purchased a First Class season, amongst other reasons, because of the advertised benefit of a complimentary drink from the trolley.

This benefit is now being removed with four days notice. I realise, as with all other catering services in First Class, that being 'complimentary' it's not part of my contract with Southern, and they are legally entitled to act as they have done. I suspect if VTEC/VTWC etc removed First Class catering, there would be quite a bit of noise from season ticket holders, nonetheless.

Whatever the strict legal position, I would expect an organisation that aspires to treat customers fairly to allow me to exit from my contract without loss if they change the product benefits adversely, mid-term. In this case, I would expect a full pro-rata refund if I surrender my season ticket. Southern have refused to do this, and I am escalating the matter.

As a matter of common courtesy, I would also have expected to receive an expression of regret or apology from Southern at the removal of a benefit. They have a website, a Twitter account and they know where I live. Other than a bare factual statement, there has been no communication.

The decision may have been the right one, commercially, but the poor implementation again says a great deal about the absence of leadership at the top of this company.

Good luck with that - you wont get a refund or an apology. You have indicated they have done nothing against the terms of any agreement. They are still offering you first class accommodation just without the free drink. It doesn't strike me as a material change.

 

[Deepgreen]

[QUOTE/]


Good luck with that - you wont get a refund or an apology. You have indicated they have done nothing against the terms of any agreement. They are still offering you first class accommodation just without the free drink. It doesn't strike me as a material change.[/QUOTE]

Well, it's accommodation with first class stickers on the windows, but, having the same seats as standard doesn't make it first class accommodation in my view!

However, you are entitled to a normal refund on your current season ticket (assuming it has more than two months to run) and then you can buy a standard class one to run back-to-back.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whatever the strict legal position, I would expect an organisation that aspires to treat customers fairly to allow me to exit from my contract without loss if they change the product benefits adversely, mid-term. In this case, I would expect a full pro-rata refund if I surrender my season ticket. Southern have refused to do this, and I am escalating the matter.

Hmm. I'd expect them to allow you to do a changeover to the standard class version of your ticket, with a partial refund as appropriate, but expecting them to let you out of your annual season ticket is a bit optimistic.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, it's accommodation with first class stickers on the windows, but, having the same seats as standard doesn't make it first class accommodation in my view!

However, you are entitled to a normal refund on your current season ticket (assuming it has more than two months to run) and then you can buy a standard class one to run back-to-back.

that is a refund for ending your season ticket not for the withdrawal of a service

 

[Deepgreen]

that is a refund for ending your season ticket not for the withdrawal of a service

Absolutely, but there's nothing to stop him ending the current first class one asap for any reason (in this case because he no longer finds it of value to him) and then buying a standard class one for the future, thereby not continuing to pay for what he now regards as a sub-first class service:

 

[Bletchleyite]

The barrier staff are generally OK, the RPIs are an absolute nightmare. I've had the "pleasure" of negotiating with them once after the Apsley office was shut, and it was enough. It was after that I got LM customer services to confirm in writing I can board without a ticket if I'm using cash or RTVs.

Are they still around? I haven't seen them in a while, and I'm sure I read here they'd laid some or all of them off.

And back on topic, I think it is sad that GoVia don't see the benefit of catering on long-distance services, instead choosing to look at the catering profit and loss account in isolation. That sort of attitude isn't really fair on catering; in isolation it may not make money, especially as part of the service is free to first class ticket holders, but there are wider benefits to catering on trains. If it attracts leisure passengers from other modes or attracts people into upgrading to first class then it has a big benefit to the business.

I certainly think the LM Crewe services could do with it - it's a long journey. The lack of a means of buying a coffee does put me off using those even if they would save money. Maybe I should buy a bigger Thermos

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are they still around? I haven't seen them in a while, and I'm sure I read here they'd laid some or all of them off.

Yes, yes they are. There aren't enough of them, as keeps getting proven at Euston: last week there were two RPIs to check all the tickets off the 0803 Hemel-Euston, it took ten minutes to get off the station. I've seen them on the trains recently too, and at Apsley.

 

[northwichcat]

Yet another example of GoVia's race to the bottom in customer service.

For once I think there is no doubt that the RMT are correct. Axing a provision at short notice is very poor for both the customers and staff and not just the staff who are axed but the station/train/customer service staff who'll have to handle the complaints.

Have people who've already booked First Class tickets been promised complimentary refreshments, which they now won't get?

 

[HH]

Good job they're not in the frame to run EA is all I can say.

 

[physics34]

Hmmm...

% passengers satisfied or good:

72% Southern
74% Thameslink/Great Northern
75% Greater Anglia
75% Southeastern
79% Northern
80% SWT
81% FGW
84% London Midland
[...]

What that shows to me is that the big London commuter TOCs are always going to struggle to have high satisfaction rates, no matter who operates them.

Incidentally, London Midland and Southeastern showed marginal improvements over the previous two surveys. And as a comparison the figures for two commuter TOCs widely acknowledged as being good are:

87% London Overground
94% Merseyrail

Source: National Passenger Survey Spring 2015

before the london bridge fiasco Southern were doing a lot better in this field so its sort of irrelevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Alongside both these places at the Bridge is the Bread Box where drinks are available for £1. No substitute for on train catering too though. Another step in the race to the bottom.

Bread box annoys me. Those rolls all sitting in the open fridge all day, you can see the cheese has gone all hard and manky.

 

[DarloRich]

Absolutely, but there's nothing to stop him ending the current first class one asap for any reason (in this case because he no longer finds it of value to him) and then buying a standard class one for the future, thereby not continuing to pay for what he now regards as a sub-first class service:

View attachment 23067

i agree you can ask for a refund if you turn in your season ticket inside 10 months. I may have misunderstood but the poster in question seemed to be asking for a refund for the withdrawal of refreshments.

 

[physics34]

Annoyingly the DfT are in a position to have stipulated any franchise to keep on board serivce/better 1st class etc etc... but they just dont. A stupid and idiotic oversight.

 

[Jonfun]

Of course they are, but they don't, because the prevailing attitude is that the railway should pay for itself. And the easiest way to do that is to drive up fares whilst reducing service levels and staffing costs.

Never mind the poor passenger who pays a small fortune in the case of some tickets, for a poor and unreliable service.