"Fare splitting"

[Daniel Hampson]

I read an article in Rail Management today about fare splitting - ie., where its cheaper to buy tickets for individual parts of teh journet rather than a through fare. It gave an example of Dundee to Glasgow off peak - £35 through fare, £19 split fare.

I was wondering if anyone had other examples, or is this just a bit of an anomolie?

 

[Aureol]

Alfreton - Peterborough.
Through fare: £35
Split fare: £16

 

[will1337]

It seems to work splitting Savers into Cheap Day Returns, which will obviously only work if you're coming back the same day but:
Stockport - York SVR: £25.60
Stockport - Stalybridge CDR - £2.50, Stalybridge - York CDR - £18.70
Hmm, not terribly dramatic that one.

 

[Mojo]

There are possibly thousands of these, look at past posts in the 'Fares, Tickets & Routeing' forum for a few examples.

There are a number of reasons for this.

There are some occasions where the fare between two stations are set by different TOCs compared to the through fare. For example Bristol Temple Meads to Cheltenham Spa is set by First Great Western, and Cheltenham Spa to Birmingham was traditionally priced by Central Trains. The through fare, however, was traditionally priced by Virgin Trains (now CrossCountry).

It could also be the case that for short journey legs, in order for cost of two tickets to match the fare of the through ticket, the fare for the shorter legs would be absurdly high. The fare from Bristol Parkway to London is GBP137. However, the fare from Bristol Parkway to Didcot Parkway (roughly half way), is GBP40.20; and the fare from Didcot Parkway to London is GBP42.20; a total of GBP82.40, some saving of GBP54.60. Making both fares roughly equal to half of GBP137 would cause massive increases that would not only be very high but not permitted unless derogation is sought from the DfT as the two short tickets are also regulated Standard Open Returns. [1]

[1] I have to point out, though that the Standard Open Return (the through fare) is different to the shorter tickets (Standard Day Return) as you can make the journey within a month dated on the ticket, whereas the Day Returns are only valid on the printed date - but the cost of two singles is only around GBP2 more. It's also worth noting that not all trains call at Didcot Parkway, limiting what trains you can catch.

 

[glynn80]

Remember although this is cheaper it does have some drawbacks, normally you are saving money on the Saver or Standard Open tickets which are valid for extended periods of time (usually one month on return portions of Savers and the same one month but on both portions of Standard Open Returns) now to gain this discount by splitting the fare you normally have to purchase a combination of "Day" tickets whether they be Cheap day or Standard Day which as they suggest are only valid for one day.

Another drawback is that is can often restrict you on the services you can travel on as to be able to split tickets your train must stop at the station where the split occurs e.g. London Paddington to Cardiff Central split at Reading and Didcot Parkway would require the train to spart at Reading and Didcot Parkway for this combination to be valid and thus faster trains which may pass through Didcot Parkway you cannot get.

 

[metrocammel]

Another drawback is that is can often restrict you on the services you can travel on as to be able to split tickets your train must stop at the station where the split occurs e.g. London Paddington to Cardiff Central split at Reading and Didcot Parkway would require the train to spart at Reading and Didcot Parkway for this combination to be valid and thus faster trains which may pass through Didcot Parkway you cannot get.

That is true, however , if you have a season or rover (any ticket that has over 3 days validity) that is valid to a point, then buy a CDR from that point to the destination, then the train doesn't have to stop at the boundary for you to spit the ticket.

 

[Krispo]

Liverpool - Edinburgh £60
Splitting at preston c.£30


Which is a bit rediculous!

 

[yorkie]

I read an article in Rail Management today about fare splitting - ie., where its cheaper to buy tickets for individual parts of teh journet rather than a through fare. It gave an example of Dundee to Glasgow off peak - £35 through fare, £19 split fare.

I was wondering if anyone had other examples, or is this just a bit of an anomolie?

There are a near infinite number of examples, but they will vary. Just because something is theoretically possible does not mean it is desirable. For example, splitting at Doncaster on XC journeys would mean you could not use half the trains.

Splitting is most effective on medium distance journeys that start during peak time but continue into off-peak times, and is even more likely to occur where several operators are involved.

One of the best examples is York to Derby, if travelling on the 0827 service. This counts as a 'peak' train so a through ticket (priced by EMT) will be approx £60. But a York-Sheffield saver is priced by NT and valid on any train at approx £18, and by the time this train gets to Sheffield (0923), cheap day returns are valid and a CDR to Derby is under £9, making the total £27 which is under half price.

But if you want to get an earlier train, a SDR from SHF-DBY would be required. Splitting would still be cheaper but it would cost more. If you wanted to come back another day then an SOR is required which further increases the cost (although still cheaper than a through ticket).

 

[jopsuk]

Further drawback if your journey involves changes of trains at the split-points, and you book "Advance" tickets, you've got no protection against missing a connection due to late running trains, I believe.

But then if the ticketing system in this country was half-way sane, the situation wouldn't arise.

 

[yorkie]

Further drawback if your journey involves changes of trains at the split-points, and you book "Advance" tickets, you've got no protection against missing a connection due to late running trains, I believe.

but this is just what some people believe; it's not documented anywhere.

NCoC recognises one "journey" may consist of multiple tickets, and it does not state that this removes any rights.

However the minimum connectional allowance must be made and I would always recommend booking tickets that include the connecting trains to prevent potential problems, where possible.

 

[glynn80]

but this is just what some people believe; it's not documented anywhere.

NCoC recognises one "journey" may consist of multiple tickets, and it does not state that this removes any rights.

However the minimum connectional allowance must be made and I would always recommend booking tickets that include the connecting trains to prevent potential problems, where possible.

So does this mean that if you have a season ticket/rover and a multiple number of connecting tickets you could get a non stop train, eg. a London Terminals to Finsbury Park season ticket, a Finsbury Park to Peterborough CDR, a Peterborough to Doncaster CDR and a Doncaster to York CDR you could get a Grand Central train between London and York?

 

[Max]

So does this mean that if you have a season ticket/rover and a multiple number of connecting tickets you could get a non stop train, eg. a London Terminals to Finsbury Park season ticket, a Finsbury Park to Peterborough CDR, a Peterborough to Doncaster CDR and a Doncaster to York CDR you could get a Grand Central train between London and York?

As far as I'm aware, no. The break of ticket has to include at least one rover/season ticket. So using your example you would only be able to have a London terminals-Finsbury Park season and a Finsbury Park-York SVR to be able to take advantage of a split ticket.

I believe that is correct anyway.

 

[yorkie]

So does this mean that if you have a season ticket/rover and a multiple number of connecting tickets you could get a non stop train, eg. a London Terminals to Finsbury Park season ticket, a Finsbury Park to Peterborough CDR, a Peterborough to Doncaster CDR and a Doncaster to York CDR you could get a Grand Central train between London and York?

See uk.railway newsgroup for a comprehensive discussion about that exact subject!

The general concensus, I believe, is no: the train has to call at the place where you change tickets UNLESS one of the tickets is a season ticket that is valid to the point where you change trains. You can combine seasons more than once, though. So in theory, a London-Finsbury season plus a Doncaster-York season is valid in conjunction with a Finsbury-Doncaster ticket for a train that is non-stop London-York.

 

[glynn80]

But the official wording in the NRCC says the following:

You may use [B]two or more[/B] tickets to travel on [B]one train journey[/B] as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:-

(a) they are zonal tickets;

(b) the train you are on calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a season ticket, which for this purpose does not include season tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Now in my example there are 3 tickets and they cover the entire journey, I have a season ticket, the only condition relating to the train calling at the station is condition (b) whereas on my example I would be using condition (c)? Where is the problem?

 

[yorkie]

See this recent discussion on the topic.

All I will say is that:
1) I don't think it is intended to work as you suggest;
2) It is badly worded;
3) You can try it and argue your case;
4) I'm told that in contractual disputes where the terms of the contract are unclear, consumer laws protect customers by ruling in their favour but IANAL.

 

[me123]

Now, here's a question. Say I'm a ticket seller, and a customer asks for a walk-up ticket to Dundee from Glasgow. They are (as far as I know) unaware that splitting at Stirling and Perth is cheaper. Do I have to sell them the dearer ticket, or can I advise them to split at Stirling and Perth, thus saving them money?

 

[djw1981]

[prepares to be shot down in flames]
You sell them a direct ticket, since that is what they asked for. Obviously a CDR / SDR / SOR as appropriate to find the cheapest ticket which suits their travel demands.

If they ask for A Dundee-Perth, Perth-Stirling and Stirling to Glasgow, you sell them that.
[/prepares to be shot down]

 

[yorkie]

If you are a kind person, and equally sure that the person asking is not a 'mystery shopper' or a manager in disguise, then you offer to split the ticket.

If you do it 'by the book' you don't.

Some TOCs have told off employees for offering customers tips on splitting ticketing as it is officially forbidden. FarceCapitalConnect and Potters Bar springs to mind as an example...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yeah, pretty much as above.

Legally speaking, the cheapest valid ticket you have to offer is the direct ticket for each journey requested, however, there is no reason why you could not offer the cheaper split ticket as an alternative, provided you make the passenger aware of the conditions that surround it (eg. a train that stops at x), but you MUST offer the direct ticket.

If they ask for a split ticket, you are legally obliged to offer the cheapest valid ticket for each section, however, you would only have to tell them about the restrictions of each ticket, but you might, at your discretion, remind them of the split ticket restrictions in the NCoC.

Even if company policy is not to offer the split ticket as an option, if they ask for it as a split ticket you MUST offer them the cheapest valid ticket for each journey they ask for.

 

[Chris B]

See this recent discussion on the topic.

All I will say is that:
1) I don't think it is intended to work as you suggest;
2) It is badly worded;
3) You can try it and argue your case;
4) I'm told that in contractual disputes where the terms of the contract are unclear, consumer laws protect customers by ruling in their favour but IANAL.

I took part & checked that discussion out - I am happy that c) in the quoted NCoC does apply to multiple tickets held & am about to use it tomorrow - an all-zones Travelcard, tickets between Knockholt & Sevenoaks (paltry £2.60 each way) and a Kent Rover to visit Ashford, Canterbury & Folkestone.

I'll let you know just how I get on....

 

[nedchester]

Frodsham to Windermere CDR £15.70
Helsby to Windermere (3 miles further!) NO CDR available so it's £41.80 SVR!!!! Ouch!

 

[glynn80]

I took part & checked that discussion out - I am happy that c) in the quoted NCoC does apply to multiple tickets held & am about to use it tomorrow - an all-zones Travelcard, tickets between Knockholt & Sevenoaks (paltry £2.60 each way) and a Kent Rover to visit Ashford, Canterbury & Folkestone.

I'll let you know just how I get on....

Is the All Zones Travelcard valid for at least 7 consecutive days as if not this will not be valid under condition (c) as defined by the NRCC also it may actually be condition (a) that applies to you as your ticket is zonal?

 

[87015]

Found out today Birmingham-Gobowen is a quid or so cheaper than Birmingham-Shrewbury despite being a fair few miles the other side and all journeys having to go through Shrewsbury....another sensible one....

 

[Tom C]

Some TOCs have told off employees for offering customers tips on splitting ticketing as it is officially forbidden. FarceCapitalConnect and Potters Bar springs to mind as an example...

Before the fares were set by zones there were many split tickets which worked out much cheaper than a through ticket, infact I spent a rather quiet day in the booking office sitting and working them all out :d

Example: London to Luton: £12.00, Tulse Hill to Luton: £11.20
Loughborough Junction to Elephant & Castle £1.20, Loughborough Junction to Blackfriars/City Thameslink £1.10

Don't think I ever sold someone a ticket from Loughborough J to Elephant as it seemed stupid.

Should note that those days are long gone but I certainly was never told not to do it and I often did it with a manager infront of me.

 

[Chris B]

Is the All Zones Travelcard valid for at least 7 consecutive days as if not this will not be valid under condition (c) as defined by the NRCC also it may actually be condition (a) that applies to you as your ticket is zonal?

Yes, it's an all-zones Travelcard season.....

 

[yorkie]

I took part & checked that discussion out - I am happy that c) in the quoted NCoC does apply to multiple tickets held & am about to use it tomorrow - an all-zones Travelcard, tickets between Knockholt & Sevenoaks (paltry £2.60 each way) and a Kent Rover to visit Ashford, Canterbury & Folkestone.

I'll let you know just how I get on....

There is no issue here.

The train does not need to call at Knuckholt as you are comining a period travelcard with a non-period ticket, and it does not need to call at Sevenoakes as you are combining a period rover with a non-period ticket. I assume you're getting one of those trains that runs non-stop to Tonbridge? Did that in 2004 on a proper unit, was good fun! You wouldn't find me down there nowadays though.

Anyway, this is not the same as stringing together loads of CDRs with just a period ticket at one end of the journey, which is probably not intended to be valid and but may be justified by the sloppy wording in the NCoC.

 

[me123]

Thanks djw, Yorkie and HHF. Bit unfair that staff cannot advise on splitting but i suppose it makes sense to someone somewhere...

 

[glynn80]

There is no issue here.

The train does not need to call at Knuckholt as you are comining a period travelcard with a non-period ticket, and it does not need to call at Sevenoakes as you are combining a period rover with a non-period ticket. I assume you're getting one of those trains that runs non-stop to Tonbridge? Did that in 2004 on a proper unit, was good fun! You wouldn't find me down there nowadays though.

This is incorrect as a "Period Rover" as you call it is not enough to warrant being a leisure travel pass, the NRCOC states it must be a multi journey ticket valid for at least 7 consecutive days or at least 3 days within a period of 7 consecutive days. The Kent Rover is only valid for 3 consecutive days and thus does not count as a leisure travel pass so could not be used under condition (c). Although I still believe the wording allows you to use a "combination" of tickets with a season ticket not just "one" other ticket.

 

[Chris B]

Although I still believe the wording allows you to use a "combination" of tickets with a season ticket not just "one" other ticket.

I had no problem using a 7day season All-zone Travelcard with knockholt-Sevenoaks singles and the Kent Rover. In fact, the grippers I spoke to were all used to this combination - obviously regularly used - and deemed the combination valid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is incorrect as a "Period Rover" as you call it is not enough to warrant being a leisure travel pass, the NRCOC states it must be a multi journey ticket valid for at least 7 consecutive days or at least 3 days within a period of 7 consecutive days. The Kent Rover is only valid for 3 consecutive days and thus does not count as a leisure travel pass so could not be used under condition (c). Although I still believe the wording allows you to use a "combination" of tickets with a season ticket not just "one" other ticket.

Under condition (c), if the kent rover is not considered a leisure pass, it is a valid combination, by the wording, as ONE must be a season or leisure pass and THE OTHER(S) is/are not (something that I had previously misread (lazy reading on my part)).

If it is considered a leisure pass the train would have to stop somewhere to change over tickets.