Overlapping and underlapping and short stopping...

[Avalon_]

Dear good folk of Rail UK forums... I am aware of the large number of short-stopping on Advanced tickets questions on here, but cannot find the answer to my specific question... apologies if I've missed it

I have an advanced ticket from A-Z, but now need to short stop at X. Clearly this is not allowed, and I do not dispute this. That said, I do want to minimise the chance of being fined when I exit the barriers at X*.

Question 1: Can I buy a separate W->X ticket to use to exit the station at X (so it will look like I have a valid ticket that ends at X. This would cost me only £2, so could be a useful bit of insurance.

Note that he A-Z train does not stop at W, so I assume the only problem is that, if the ticket is checked at the station and there was not a recent train from W, a canny inspector may realise what I have done.

Question 2: If cheaper, I may buy a Y -> X for the same purpose. Unlike question 1, which was about an overlap, this is underlapping - I will never have visited station Y.


Many thanks in advance for your kind help,
Avalon_


* Just to be clear, I am completely aware that I am breaking the rules of an Advanced ticket AND trying to minimise the risk of being caught by purchasing another ticket... whose rules I am also breaking. Feel free to pass judgement!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is not permitted to stop short on an Advance ticket. If you wish to leave at X, you should really travel to Z and then return to X. I would expect you to be OK with a Z-X ticket, but with anything else you are leaving yourself open to risk and you are breaking the terms of your ticket.

 

[OwlMan]

In my opinion buying a ticket to enable you to exit a station - having travelled on a ticket that is invalid to leave at that station, would provide any investigating officer evidence that you knew that the ticket was invalid and that you deliberately tried to avoid detection.

 

[DeeGee]

Question 2: If cheaper, I may buy a Y -> X for the same purpose. Unlike question 1, which was about an overlap, this is underlapping - I will never have visited station Y.

2 is highly dodgy. Technically, you're needing to travel from the start point to the finish point of A-Z, then back to X. Y would be short faring.

I believe that the correct course of action is, of course, A-Z then the train back to X. However, I believe that it is possible to show your combination of tickets to the guard on your train (A-Z+Z-X) and request their permission to alight at X. If they give such permission, then you should be OK.

Of course, the alternative is to get just the Advance, seek out the guard on the service where you want to stop short. Tell him/her that your plans have changed, could they sell you a ticket from Z-X? They might let you stop short. The might sell you a ticket and let you alight at X (or they might insist on taking the whole journey as planned). Whatever they allow, you'll be doing the right thing.

This of course assumes that you are on a service with a guard.

 

[Avalon_]

Avalon_
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2 is highly dodgy. Technically, you're needing to travel from the start point to the finish point of A-Z, then back to X. Y would be short faring.

I believe that the correct course of action is, of course, A-Z then the train back to X. However, I believe that it is possible to show your combination of tickets to the guard on your train (A-Z+Z-X) and request their permission to alight at X. If they give such permission, then you should be OK.

Of course, the alternative is to get just the Advance, seek out the guard on the service where you want to stop short. Tell him/her that your plans have changed, could they sell you a ticket from Z-X? They might let you stop short. The might sell you a ticket and let you alight at X (or they might insist on taking the whole journey as planned). Whatever they allow, you'll be doing the right thing.

This of course assumes that you are on a service with a guard.

Scrap my last answer - this is better. I'll do that - many thanks
Avalon_

 

[CyrusWuff]

Without knowing the exact locations of A, X and Z it's difficult to say, but you'd be less likely to have problems stopping short if A was Marylebone, X was Solihull and Z was Birmingham (given you'd almost certainly have paid the same price for a ticket to Solihull rather than Birmingham at the time of purchase) than if A was Waterloo, X was Southampton Central and Z was Brockenhurst, given SWT don't sell Advance tickets between Waterloo and Southampton.

 

[Avalon_]

Without knowing the exact locations of A, X and Z it's difficult to say, but you'd be less likely to have problems stopping short if A was Marylebone, X was Solihull and Z was Birmingham (given you'd almost certainly have paid the same price for a ticket to Solihull rather than Birmingham at the time of purchase) than if A was Waterloo, X was Southampton Central and Z was Brockenhurst, given SWT don't sell Advance tickets between Waterloo and Southampton.

Hi Cyrus - it's London to Bangor (Wales) and I need to stop at Llandudno Junction... so your analogy is apt

 

[Agent_c]

Question 1: Can I buy a separate W->X ticket to use to exit the station at X (so it will look like I have a valid ticket that ends at X. This would cost me only £2, so could be a useful bit of insurance.

I think the clue is in the question. If you have to make it "Appear" as if you had a valid ticket, then you don't have a valid ticket....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi Cyrus - it's London to Bangor (Wales) and I need to stop at Llandudno Junction... so your analogy is apt

I can't see there being any objection to that one at all, even if LLJ had a station block on that day (it's otherwise an open station with no barrier line). The railway's general view is, despite the rules, that the no-stopping-short rule should only be enforced if it's likely to be for the purposes of saving money. It's very unlikely that a London-Bangor Advance would be cheaper than a London-LLJ one.

TBH, I'd just get off there and not expect to be challenged, and even if I was challenged I would expect them to be happy with an Anytime Single from Bangor being paid for on the spot, particularly if you go in with the "I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do this but my plans changed" type line. Definitely don't buy a short-fare (dumbbelling) - that would be seen as deliberate evasion and you'd end up being prosecuted.

Your other option is to travel to Bangor and back, but I think the Welsh approach to the railway would probably consider that a bit silly Though the ride along that bit of the Coast is quite pleasant, so if you have the time...

 

[yorkie]

Dear good folk of Rail UK forums... I am aware of the large number of short-stopping on Advanced tickets questions on here, but cannot find the answer to my specific question... apologies if I've missed it

I have an advanced ticket from A-Z, but now need to short stop at X. Clearly this is not allowed, and I do not dispute this. That said, I do want to minimise the chance of being fined when I exit the barriers at X*.

You are not permitted to start/finish short at X according to the T&Cs but the rail industry's policy is (sensibly) to allow it, as reported in previous threads, as it's rail industry policy not to charge.

But an excess could be charged under Condition 16 of the NRCoC "...you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s)

Question 1: Can I buy a separate W->X ticket to use to exit the station at X (so it will look like I have a valid ticket that ends at X. This would cost me only £2, so could be a useful bit of insurance.

Note that he A-Z train does not stop at W, so I assume the only problem is that, if the ticket is checked at the station and there was not a recent train from W, a canny inspector may realise what I have done.

It sounds like you are intending to show a ticket you did not use in order to avoid showing a ticket you did use. You could, therefore, be asked to show the correct ticket and questioned as to your actions...

Question 2: If cheaper, I may buy a Y -> X for the same purpose. Unlike question 1, which was about an overlap, this is underlapping - I will never have visited station Y.

I don't see how this is any different to the previous example.

* Just to be clear, I am completely aware that I am breaking the rules of an Advanced ticket AND trying to minimise the risk of being caught by purchasing another ticket... whose rules I am also breaking. Feel free to pass judgement!

It's best to purchase the correct ticket in the first place. Is it too late for that? As stated in previous threads, purchasing a ticket from the destination on your ticket back to the station you wish to alight at, combined with asking the Guard/ticket examiner (if there is one) if you are required to double-back is generally the best solution to this problem, as usually the answer will authorise you to avoid doubling back.

 

[krus_aragon]

Of course, the alternative is to get just the Advance, seek out the guard on the service where you want to stop short. Tell him/her that your plans have changed, could they sell you a ticket from Z-X? They might let you stop short. The might sell you a ticket and let you alight at X (or they might insist on taking the whole journey as planned). Whatever they allow, you'll be doing the right thing.

This of course assumes that you are on a service with a guard.

This is the course of action that I'd advise.

Llandudno Junction is an open station and I've never encountered a manual block in operation there. Buying a second ticket in order to disembark there would be very odd behaviour on the slim chance anyone happened to question your actions, and it's unlikely to be of any help to you.

 

[FenMan]

This is the course of action that I'd advise.

Llandudno Junction is an open station and I've never encountered a manual block in operation there. Buying a second ticket in order to disembark there would be very odd behaviour on the slim chance anyone happened to question your actions, and it's unlikely to be of any help to you.

If the second ticket was from the stop before Llandudno Junction in what way would this be considered to be odd behaviour?

*Not condoning etc. Just asking.

 

[damo44]

If the second ticket was from the stop before Llandudno Junction in what way would this be considered to be odd behaviour?

*Not condoning etc. Just asking.

Because the Advance ticket is only valid if you had actually gone all the way from A to Z. If you alighted at Llandudno Junction and presented the ticket valid from the station immediately before (the -1) , you wouldn't have anything to show how you traveled to the -1 station*

* Clearly I'm conveniently overlooking ticket gates at the -1 station, CCTV, whether his train actually stopped there and anything else that would prove that the entire journey didn't start at the -1

 

[krus_aragon]

If the second ticket was from the stop before Llandudno Junction in what way would this be considered to be odd behaviour?

*Not condoning etc. Just asking.

In this instance, because the OP will (presumably) be travelling along the coast with Virgin, who do not call at the station immediately before the Junction, namely Abergele.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[martinsh]

In this instance, because the OP will (presumably) be travelling along the coast with Virgin, who do not call at the station immediately before the Junction, namely Abergele.

I don't think the inhabitants of Colwyn Bay will be very pleased with this answer !

 

[MikeWh]

As others have noted, in practice the industry does not enforce the rule against stopping short on advances.

As long as a financial advantage has not been gained.

 

[krus_aragon]

I don't think the inhabitants of Colwyn Bay will be very pleased with this answer !

Sorry, brain fizzling out of power yesterday, coupled by the fact that I recently bought tickets to Colwyn Bay, splitting at Abergele.

 

[Avalon_]

Thanks for all the advice!

I'll just short stop at Llandudno Junction. The likelihood is that, in the absence of ticket barriers, I will be very unlucky to have any issue. If I do, then I'll offer to pay the Bangor - LLandudno fare. As many say, the likelihood of this is minimal.

Will post back if all does not go well.

Cheers all,
Ravi

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would much rather be telling a court that I got off early and I'm sorry... than telling a court about how I had planned to violate the T&Cs of my ticket by buying another in order to get past the gateline.

This.

It's much better to be saying "I didn't realise I couldn't get off early, I'm terribly terribly sorry, can I pay the difference from Z?" than trying to justify why you're trying to get past a revenue block with a short-fare ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

The likelihood just went up now you have broadcasted it to the world on this forum

 

[Bletchleyite]

The likelihood just went up now you have broadcasted it to the world on this forum

I doubt it; I can't see the TOC objecting to this at all. Unless done to save money, which in this case it clearly isn't, ATOC has said they aren't bothered about this, and Yorkie has confirmed, and he tends to know these things.