Newport-Cardiff Central - Transport Investigations Ltd

[mlben]

Hi there, I'm looking for some advice:

I was travelling one evening earlier this month to Cardiff Central from Newport. I've done this journey many times before and never had a problem buying my ticket at the other end. This time however when I tried purchasing a ticket in Cardiff Central I was refused and invited to speak to a Revenue Protection Officer.

I provided my details as requested (but refused to sign any of the documentation). I was advised (and shown on the Officer's iPhone) that there were signs at Newport advising a ticket should be bought before travel, however when returning to Newport later that evening there was no notice at the back of the station which we'd gone through.

I was told by the Officer that I had failed on two occasions to buy a ticket for my journey - once at the station (I thought as the gates were open at Newport the ticket office at the front of the station would have been closed) and again on the train. I explained that no conductor passed whilst on the train (I've since found out that the oweness is on the individual to seek him/her out) and that purchasing a ticket at my destination was my intention which I tried to do before the Revenue Protection Officer stepped in.

If buying a ticket at your first opportunity (which would be the card machine at Newport) is a must, then why would the Officer say that buying on the train would have been acceptable?
If this is the case then surely purchasing at the destination is also acceptable?

If I'd been coming from an unmanned station such as Ninian Park, buying a ticket at Cardiff Central for my 'journey' would have been acceptable. Am I therefore technically still travelling until I leave station?

If this is the case, what impact does having been sold a return ticket (which I still have) from Newport to Cardiff Central after my interview have?

Technically have I been allowed to purchase a ticket to cover my journey before exiting the station?

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Any advice or comments greatly appreciated.

 

[clagmonster]

The opening hours for Newport booking office are:
"Monday - Friday 05:45 - 20:00
Saturday 06:30 - 20:30
Sunday 08:00 - 19:45"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/NWP/details.html

According to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_NWP/plan.html?rtnloc=NWP there are machines at both entrances with accept both cash and cards.

Assuming the above is correct, and that the machines were function, you are in breach of this byelaw:
"18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
16
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket. "
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

You may also be deemed to be in breach of the Regulation of Railway Act, if it can be proved that you intended to avoid the fare. Walking past an opportunity to pay, as it appears you did at Newport, is, I understand, legally considered to demonstrate intent to avoid payment.

The fact that you subsequently paid your fare does mean that you no longer owe the railway company the fare, thus if this comes to court, this shouldn't be awarded as compensation. You can still be fined if found guilty and charged the victim surcharge.

You will in all likelihood receive a letter in the next few months asking for your side of things. I would advise keeping to the facts of this incident alone, and also offer to settle the matter out of court and offer to cover the admin fees caused by this act.

I would also advise that in future you purchase a ticket before travelling.

 

[reb0118]

Where facilities exist you must use them prior to boarding any train for the purposes of travel if not you are committing a criminal offence unless you have received permission to do so (and can prove that you got permission).

The comment about the onus (not oweness) being on you to find the conductor once you are on board the train is not technically correct (although it would have been in your interests to do so - every train in Wales has a conductor as far as I am aware). In any case as you bypassed the booking office at Newport this has no bearing on the case.

Was the office at Newport open? Was there a functioning TVM at Newport?

 

[najaB]

I was travelling one evening earlier this month to Cardiff Central from Newport. I've done this journey many times before and never had a problem buying my ticket at the other end. This time however when I tried purchasing a ticket in Cardiff Central I was refused and invited to speak to a Revenue Protection Officer.

What time did you arrive at Newport station? How did you intend to pay for your ticket? There was no requirement for you to seek out the guard but it wouldn't have hurt to do so.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm curious what time the OP was travelling at...

 

[clagmonster]

I've done this journey many times before and never had a problem buying my ticket at the other end. This time however when I tried purchasing a ticket in Cardiff Central I was refused and invited to speak to a Revenue Protection Officer.

Just noting this section. It is entirely possible that the RPO recognised you as somebody who has previously, or even regularly, arrives without a valid ticket from a staffed station and this is why he has taken action.

Just as a matter of interest, where do you go at Cardiff to buy your ticket? Do you go to the ticket sellers at the platform 7 end of the subway, or by the ticket barriers? What do you do if the ticket barriers are open?

 

[Fare-Cop]

I provided my details as requested (but refused to sign any of the documentation). I was advised (and shown on the Officer's iPhone) that there were signs at Newport advising a ticket should be bought before travel, however when returning to Newport later that evening there was no notice at the back of the station which we'd gone through.

The 'Buy before you board' warning is on every timetable poster at all ATW stations and there are additional posters and warning signs throughout the system

I explained that no conductor passed whilst on the train (I've since found out that the oweness is on the individual to seek him/her out) and that purchasing a ticket at my destination was my intention which I tried to do before the Revenue Protection Officer stepped in.

The guard's primary duty is the safe operation of the train, it is not to seek out those people who haven't paid. That's the job of the inspectors

If buying a ticket at your first opportunity (which would be the card machine at Newport) is a must, then why would the Officer say that buying on the train would have been acceptable?

The strict liability requirement of National Railway Byelaw 18.1 is that the intending traveller must pay the fare and get a ticket before boarding a train where facilities to do so are provided by the TOC and subject to the usual caveats re permission etc. Failure to do this is a prosecutable offence.

If this is the case then surely purchasing at the destination is also acceptable?

Buying a ticket after being reported would not cancel the offence. Both Byelaw 18 and RRA S.5 refer to a requirement to have previously paid the fare

 

[CC 72100]

Why would you continually pay after the journey when there are more than sufficient ticket purchasing facilties available at Newport and signs about buying before travel?

Unless of course, you are travelling at a time when the barriers at Newport are open and you are unlikely to be challenged....

 

[Minilad]

One of the pay when challenged brigade?

 

[CC 72100]

One of the pay when challenged brigade?

The cynic in me certainly says this. Maybe they do the journey several times, don't meet anybody to be 'challenged' by the majority of occasions and then on a couple of times pay when encountered by somebody who can take fares but not RPIs. Well, until this time.

Just a possibility...

 

[Fare-Cop]

Maybe they do the journey several times, don't meet anybody to be 'challenged' by the majority of occasions and then on a couple of times pay when encountered by somebody who can take fares but not RPIs.

This is the major problem that was identified by ATW around 5 years ago and a more robust programme of traveller re-education, through the provision of more ticket facilities combined with new signs and firm enforcement of the rules has since been adopted by the rail company.

The most frequent habit has been identified as getting on at station X without a ticket and when the conductor passes through asking if anyone needs "tickets from station X", just ignoring him or her then, if the barriers are open at destination walking out, or if not, paying for a return ticket from the last stop of the train.

ATW recognised that historically, a custom & practice of paying 'only if asked' had developed in many parts of their network and they are taking a firm approach to deter what has been confirmed by Appeal Court precedent to be an illegal practice thereby reducing such losses.

It appears that this has been strongly supported by the levels of sentence imposed by the majority of Magistrates Courts and ATW have begun publishing the Courts results on local posters throughout their network.

 

[island]

When you chose to join a train without using the available facilities to buy a ticket you committed a criminal offence. The presence or otherwise of signage warning you about this isn't relevant.

ATW may decide to settle the matter out of court on payment of an appropriate sum of money reflecting the costs they incur to detect and deal with criminals such as yourself. For those who have not previously come to the attention of the company, sums often mentioned are in the region of £100.