New aircraft seating layout - Could this also be applied to rail vehicles?

[MarkyT]

A French company, Zodiac Aerospace, has developed a new seating concept: High density with business class width, folding seats arranged in alternating directions across rows, so passengers in adjacent seats would be facing each other. For small groups it allows people to interact and converse, parents to supervise children better, etc

http://www.zodiacaerospace.com/en/n...ct-exploratory-concept-developed-zodiac-seats

I wonder if the concept could also be appropriate for UK suburban rail operations, particularly as a better solution for our oft-maligned 2+3 high-density commuter layouts.

The sprung fold up seats are a very good idea which should help to speed up boarding operations. Fellow aisle passengers already have to stand up to let you into a window or middle seat now with conventional layouts, so this really isn't too much of an inconvenience. Lack of trays on an aircraft isn't a big problem today as budget operators on short-haul don't provide full meals as a rule. Most importantly a cup holder IS included, an item often lacking today on some modern commuter trains. That is something I find annoying and is actually dangerous as it can lead to hot liquid spills as people try to balance cups on laps or reach down in the confined space to place or retrieve them from the floor. In my view well done Zodiac for an excellent concept.

A video: https://youtu.be/RCGVpTzF2xI

 

[WatcherZero]

Used to be done in the old days, Funicular railways still use that seating arrangement.

 

[Deepgreen]

A French company, Zodiac Aerospace, has developed a new seating concept: High density with business class width, folding seats arranged in alternating directions across rows, so passengers in adjacent seats would be facing each other. For small groups it allows people to interact and converse, parents to supervise children better, etc

http://www.zodiacaerospace.com/en/n...ct-exploratory-concept-developed-zodiac-seats

I wonder if the concept could also be appropriate for UK suburban rail operations, particularly as a better solution for our oft-maligned 2+3 high-density commuter layouts.

The sprung fold up seats are a very good idea which should help to speed up boarding operations. Fellow aisle passengers already have to stand up to let you into a window or middle seat now with conventional layouts, so this really isn't too much of an inconvenience. Lack of trays on an aircraft isn't a big problem today as budget operators on short-haul don't provide full meals as a rule. Most importantly a cup holder IS included, an item often lacking today on some modern commuter trains. That is something I find annoying and is actually dangerous as it can lead to hot liquid spills as people try to balance cups on laps or reach down in the confined space to place or retrieve them from the floor. In my view well done Zodiac for an excellent concept.

A video: https://youtu.be/RCGVpTzF2xI

These things are very subjective, but this looks horrendous to me. Interlocking with fellow passengers like this for anything more than a few minutes would be very unpleasant. I certainly couldn't stand it on a flight or a medium to long train journey! However, others may be sufficiently oblivious to the very close proximity of facing people to put up with it. The lack of arm rests also looks very uncomfortable, and the space doesn't look like any business class I have ever seen!

 

[AM9]

These things are very subjective, but this looks horrendous to me. Interlocking with fellow passengers like this for anything more than a few minutes would be very unpleasant. I certainly couldn't stand it on a flight or a medium to long train journey! However, others may be sufficiently oblivious to the very close proximity of facing people to put up with it. The lack of arm rests also looks very uncomfortable, and the space doesn't look like any business class I have ever seen!

I don't think I've ever seen business class seating with a 31inch pitch and certainly not with tip-up seats about 25mm thick. Also, there is no room under seats for lifejackets or luggage that can't fit into overhead bins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks downright rubbish. Of course trains have one advantage over planes - it is considered adequately safe to have standing passengers. I would therefore prefer 2+2 seating with ample well-designed standing space for when it gets busy. I certainly already choose to stand in preference to sitting in the middle of a 3 in 3+2, I would choose to stand rather than sit in *any* seat in such a ridiculous layout.

 

[MarkyT]

T. . . Interlocking with fellow passengers like this for anything more than a few minutes would be very unpleasant. . . The lack of arm rests also looks very uncomfortable, and the space doesn't look like any business class I have ever seen!

Looks downright rubbish. Of course trains have one advantage over planes - it is considered adequately safe to have standing passengers. I would therefore prefer 2+2 seating with ample well-designed standing space for when it gets busy. I certainly already choose to stand in preference to sitting in the middle of a 3 in 3+2, I would choose to stand rather than sit in *any* seat in such a ridiculous layout.

In my London commuting days I also preferred to stand in a comforatably spaced 2+2 rather than squeeze into that middle slot on the 3 bench, but that was for relatively short hops such as Waterloo - Woking after which I usually got a seat to Basingstoke . . . and I was younger then!

I don't think they're claiming it's business class, just similar to (some) business class seat spacing. Comparing to 3+2 conventional rail seating, that also does not have room for armrests within UK loading gauge.

I find elbow battles with narrow rests quite infuriating sometimes even in 2+2 so a space between adjacent same direction seats like the Zodiac design could be interesting. Perhaps they could also incorporate sprung folding armrests too.

As for personal space the UK 3-bench is quite intrusive in this respect but you don't have to face people so closely. Perhaps the acceptability of this design will vary according to differing national characteristics.

Personally I retain an open mind and would like to see some trials, and try it myself.

 

[Greenback]

I don't like the look of it. I prefer the 3 seat bench. Eye contact is not encouraged on British trains!

I think it's nice to have a choice of whether to sit down in a middle seat or stand. Some will be like Neil and prefer to stand up, others may well decide they want to sit down. There's no choice on an aircraft.

 

[DasLunatic]

There's no choice on an aircraft.

There is - it's called Ryanair and being forced to stand

 

[delt1c]

There is - it's called Ryanair and being forced to stand

How often do you fly Ryanair and when have you stood. Use them regularly and there is no problem. comfortable and VFM

 

[najaB]

How often do you fly Ryanair and when have you stood.

I suspect it was tongue in cheek since standing isn't allowed on planes.

 

[Philip C]

I suspect it was tongue in cheek since standing isn't allowed on planes.

How do passengers get to their seats then?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I suspect it was tongue in cheek since standing isn't allowed on planes.

I agree about it being tongue in cheek too, but did not Micheal O Leary CEO at Ryanair suggest permitting passengers to stand on flights of less than an hour if rules could be relaxed a few years back, or perhaps his suggestion was also tongue in cheek?

 

[najaB]

How do passengers get to their seats then?

Okay, fine - passengers without seats.

I agree about it being tongue in cheek too, but did not Micheal O Leary CEO at Ryanair suggest permitting passengers to stand on flights of less than an hour if rules could be relaxed a few years back, or perhaps his suggestion was also tongue in cheek?

MOL will say anything that gets him headlines, even when he knows it will never happen. He's a firm believer in the 'no bad publicity' mantra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's nice to have a choice of whether to sit down in a middle seat or stand. Some will be like Neil and prefer to stand up, others may well decide they want to sit down. There's no choice on an aircraft.

True, and I suppose those who are sat as a 2 on the 3 bench have plenty of personal space. Only trouble with 3+2 if you don't use the 3 side as a 3 is that you waste possible standing space.

Many commuters on the south WCML certainly prefer 350/1s and 350/3s over the other options even if it does mean standing for part of the journey. The hunt for the "blue seats" (or posh green ones) goes on apace

Of course some of us are quite looking forward to the ex-Brighton Express 319/2s with their particularly generously-spaced 2+2!

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....the space doesn't look like any business class I have ever seen!

I don't think I've ever seen business class seating with a 31inch pitch and certainly not with tip-up seats about 25mm thick.....

Actually, nowhere do they say it's business class, or imply it.
Quite the opposite, it's very high-density seating, i.e. more packed in than Ryanair and much more dense than normal economy.

.....I don't think they're claiming it's business class, just similar to (some) business class seat spacing.......

Indeed. They're saying that the configuration will give business class type width, in a very high density layout.

As the company says, it's only "an exploratory concept", to test out ideas about packing more passengers into the same space, but improving width and maintaining/improving legroom.
Take no notice of the look of the seats themselves, it's just a CGI rendering of the layout.

 

[AM9]

Actually, nowhere do they say it's business class, or imply it.
Quite the opposite, it's very high-density seating, i.e. more packed in than Ryanair and much more dense than normal economy.



Indeed. They're saying that the configuration will give business class type width, in a very high density layout.

As the company says, it's only "an exploratory concept", to test out ideas about packing more passengers into the same space, but improving width and maintaining/improving legroom.
Take no notice of the look of the seats themselves, it's just a CGI rendering of the layout.

But the loss of stowage under the seats is a major disadvantage, - unless of course there are airlines planning for further reducing carry-on allowances.

 

[Pigeon]

...folding seats arranged in alternating directions across rows, so passengers in adjacent seats would be facing each other. For small groups it allows people to interact and converse, parents to supervise children better, etc

...and for the same reason is a nightmare of an idea if you are not in such a category.

 

[Greenback]

Thinking about it, if airlines started using these types of seats I think it would help make train travel more attractive! Especially in Europe on short haul flows that compete with high speed rail routes such as Paris - Barcelona.

 

[Camden]

How do passengers get to their seats then?

Not by standing. Standing doesn't tend to get you anywhere particularly quickly.

 

[Western Lord]

This proposal would never be approved by the airworthiness authorities. There is no chance of guaranteeing that the seats would always tip up as designed and thus people could be trapped or seriously impaired in an emergency evacuation. In any case, you cannot just squeeze as many seats as you like into an airliner. Capacity is governed by exit availability, On single aisle aircraft like the Airbus A320 and Boeing 737-800, the classic arrangement of fore and aft exits on each side plus two overwing exits on each sides allows a legal maximum of 189 seats. This arrangement dates back to the 707/DC-8 era. The Boeing 707-320 series also had a maximum of 189 seats, but when they developed the 707-320C convertible pax/cargo version, they added a pair of exits on each side just aft of the wing. This was to cater for combi operations where the forward cabin had cargo with passengers aft. The forward doors were thus inaccesible hence the extra exits. The presence of the extra exits immediately lifted the maximum permissable capacity from 189 to 219, in exactly the same cabin space. To go one seat over 189 in a A320/737-800 would require extra exits. It is notable that the lengthened fuselage 737-900 has exactly the same exit arrangement as the -800 as is thus also limited to 189 seats, but the lengthened fuselage enables more passengers to be carried in a mixed class layout.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Again, it is just a design concept, developed to test and promote ideas and not an actual working proposal.

Such concepts appear in all sorts of fields in order to exercise designers and engineers, in the hope that useful lessons can be learned, or that fresh ideas and innovations can be born out of the process.
It is normal in these cases to push the boundaries and sometimes go beyond real world practical considerations, in order to make various design statements.

Importantly, they also help raise the profile of the companies involved, by getting attention in the trade and general media and at exhibitions and shows.
Just look at the car industry. They do this sort of thing all the time.

 

[fowler9]

Looks and sounds like a terrible idea. Am pretty confident it would never pass any safety testing. I am sure the nutters who invented it will relish the internet coverage though. Think about it. No more seats but loads of people facing different directions in an aircraft emergency.

 

[Starmill]

How do passengers get to their seats then?

On Ryanair? By fighting their way to them!

 

[GatwickDepress]

On Ryanair? By fighting their way to them!

"Would you like to fly heavyweight class, sir?"

 

[jopsuk]

I am sure the nutters who invented it will relish the internet coverage though..

I agree that I don't like the idea, but the "nutters" are one of the biggest aircraft seat manufacturers!

 

[stut]

For someone like me, whose shoulders are broader than an economy seat, this looks fantastic. My main problem is - why do they always angle seat backs so much? Same goes for so many trains (GN 321s and Eurostars especially). Very uncomfortable, and leaves you in a bad position to maximise legroom, too.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't like the look of it. I prefer the 3 seat bench. Eye contact is not encouraged on British trains!

I think it's nice to have a choice of whether to sit down in a middle seat or stand. Some will be like Neil and prefer to stand up, others may well decide they want to sit down. There's no choice on an aircraft.

I agree - i think the concept of a fold up seat on high density trains might be worth considering but not in this bay arrangement as it looks very cramped.

In the plane i wonder if such seats would pass crash regulations - do they offer enough support in the event of an impact?

 

[physics34]

i thought it was a well known fact that if airline seat faced backwards there would have been less deaths in air disasters. I wonder if this is that same with trains.

 

[stut]

In the plane i wonder if such seats would pass crash regulations - do they offer enough support in the event of an impact?

Crew tip-up seats seem to, assuming they're subject to the same scrutiny.

(Given crew are the ones facilitating an evacuation, you'd think so...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

i thought it was a well known fact that if airline seat faced backwards there would have been less deaths in air disasters. I wonder if this is that same with trains.

I believe it is, which is why end vehicles on higher speed stock mainly contain backward-facing seats.