W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[bnm]

No that's the point. You wouldn't use the passcom to query an arrival time for example.

Still potentially dangerous. The only time a passenger should talk to a PCV driver when the vehicle is in motion - be that bus, scheduled coach, magical mystery tour - is in an emergency.

Just as you shouldn't use a passcom for anything other than an emergency.

If it was urgent yes I'd be happy to distract the driver. Passengers talk to coach drivers all the time especially on tour coaches.

Urgent is not emergency. Just because something is regularly done doesn't make it right. Distracting a PCV driver is dangerous. Besides which, these days, you should be in your seat wearing a seat belt unless on a coach registered before 2001.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Urgent is not emergency. Just because something is regularly done doesn't make it right. Distracting a PCV driver is dangerous. Besides which, these days, you should be in your seat wearing a seat belt unless on a coach registered before 2001.

It is permitted to move around the coach if necessary, e.g. to alert the driver of a problem or to use the toilet.

 

[bnm]

No that's the point. You wouldn't use the passcom to query an arrival time for example.

That's precisely the point. You shouldn't distract a PCV driver for such a trivial reason.

 

[Carlisle]

No that's the point. You wouldn't use the passcom to query an arrival time for example.

Don't most people rely mainly on their smartphones these days for that sort of routine information except of course during times of disruption?

 

[bnm]

It is permitted to move around the coach if necessary, e.g. to alert the driver of a problem or to use the toilet.

But not to ask him about ETA or stopping points.

 

[Busaholic]

And that view is consistent and makes sense - the thing I find difficult is the line that existing urban DOO is sort-of acceptable but further IC DOO isn't, particularly given that much of fGW these days (the Cornish expresses aside) is a pseudo commuter operation in some ways a bit more like South West Trains than East Coast.

Please do show me where these Cornish expresses are in the timetable. It is a regrettable fact that I can drive from my home in Penzance via A30, A303 and M25 to Croydon in the same time as the majority of 'expresses' to Paddington, and at comparable cost (actually, much less cost if the car has a passenger too). I have an absolute bottom-of-the range Renault Clio, several years old, and both I and my passenger have good all-round view from the windows too.

 

[notadriver]

Could you do it in the same time whilst calling into the same cities the train stops at ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't most people rely mainly on their smartphones these days for that sort of routine information except of course during times of disruption?

Agreed but thinking about DOO operations the fact of the matter is during times of disruption there is no one to ask for help with information aboard a DOO train. Whereas on a coach assuming it's a stuck in a traffic jam or it's at a scheduled stop, asking the driver a question is perfectly possible and acceptable. So DOO train operations can't be compared to road transport.

 

[Rich McLean]

Please do show me where these Cornish expresses are in the timetable. It is a regrettable fact that I can drive from my home in Penzance via A30, A303 and M25 to Croydon in the same time as the majority of 'expresses' to Paddington, and at comparable cost (actually, much less cost if the car has a passenger too). I have an absolute bottom-of-the range Renault Clio, several years old, and both I and my passenger have good all-round view from the windows too.

1C77 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00471/2015/07/14/advanced
1006 Paddington
1033 Reading
1210 Exeter St Davids
1229 Newton Abbot
1311 Plymouth
>>>>>
1511 Penzance

1C82 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00492/2015/07/14/advanced
1206 Paddington
1233 Reading
1410 Exeter St Davids
1429 Newton Abbot
1512 Plymouth
>>>>>
1712 Penzance

1A81 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00157/2015/07/14/advanced
0844 Penzance
>>>>>>
1044 Plymouth
1139 Exeter St Davids
1319 Reading
1344 Paddington

Three of the quickest Cornish Express services (locally known at Crack Expresses). Just a shade over 5 hours

 

[HowardGWR]

Please do show me where these Cornish expresses are in the timetable. It is a regrettable fact that I can drive from my home in Penzance via A30, A303 and M25 to Croydon in the same time as the majority of 'expresses' to Paddington, and at comparable cost (actually, much less cost if the car has a passenger too). I have an absolute bottom-of-the range Renault Clio, several years old, and both I and my passenger have good all-round view from the windows too.

Do you take the recommended breaks of 15 mins after every two hours of driving? As the thread subject is centred on safety, this could be relevant. If your passenger drives, of course that's different.

I detest modern driving and I think most people do, so comfort is also relevant.

 

[Minilad]

Do you take the recommended breaks of 15 mins after every two hours of driving? As the thread subject is centred on safety, this could be relevant. If your passenger drives, of course that's different.

I detest modern driving and I think most people do, so comfort is also relevant.

And of course, must stick rigidly to the speed limit at all time. Not even 1mph over

 

[island]

And of course, must stick rigidly to the speed limit at all time. Not even 1mph over

And let's not forget taking the pro rata cost of depreciation, insurance, road tax, servicing, etc. into account.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And let's not forget taking the pro rata cost of depreciation, insurance, road tax, servicing, etc. into account.

That is only one model for car ownership which is rarely actually applicable to marginal journeys.

 

[FordFocus]

Bored of the car and coach conversation.....

Back on topic, is there any progress from ACAS, FGW and RMT over the issue?

 

[Flamingo]

Bored of the car and coach conversation.....

Back on topic, is there any progress from ACAS, FGW and RMT over the issue?

Talks did not reach a satisfactory conclusion again this afternoon. I didn't know ACAS were involved yet.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Talks did not reach a satisfactory conclusion again this afternoon. I didn't know ACAS were involved yet.

I don't believe they are yet.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd be very surprised if they weren't. Usually they step in as soon as strike action is seriously on the table and/or the two sides have suffered a breakdown in communication. It's major part of the process.

 

[HowardGWR]

Bored of the car and coach conversation.....

Well, so am I, even though I contributed but there is a relevance. If the railways can scoop up the non-car users in ever increasing quantities that mean that the Great Western IEPs will be ever more profitable and ever increasingly used, then perhaps staffing could be provided at a level of what most of us think is needed, without cost cutting being the management watchword.

The question is, will 'Busaholic' type road users gradually diminish in number? (I hope he will forgive my accolade). In other words, do we have a new trend of increasing non-car use that will mean that supervision on trains will be more needed than ever?

 

[Carlisle]

Right now it seems more of an attempt to future proof the operation of the proposed new trains/services rather than to cut staff, but as many on here have pointed out the end result of these changes could make it easier if usage declines for the next franchise to cut staff if they're determined to do so

 

[Flamingo]

Right now it seems more of an attempt to future proof the operation of the proposed new trains/services rather than to cut staff, but as many on here have pointed out the end result of these changes could make it easier if usage declines for the next franchise to cut staff if they're determined to do so

Staff will be cut regardless of usage, as decreased running costs result in both a larger profit for First Group and possibly lower subsidy. And everybody will be happy, except for the passengers who will have nobody to assist them. But that's ok, as all the members of this forum won't need help anyway...

 

[bnm]

From the BBC:

First Great Western and RMT union back in discussions following strike

A train operator and transport workers union are back around the negotiating table following a 48-hour strike.

High-speed services between London, the West of England and Wales were affected last week, after Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) members walked out.

They fear guards and buffet cars will be disposed of on the new fleet of Hitachi Inter City Express trains for First Great Western (FGW).

Both RMT and FGW confirmed to the BBC that discussions were ongoing.

"There are talks and we'll leave it at that for now," an RMT spokesman added.

According to the union, about 2,000 members of staff went on strike across the FGW network.

FGW said, despite a revised timetable and warnings of much busier trains, more than 60% of services operated as normal on Thursday.

In his latest open letter to customers, managing director Mark Hopwood said there could be further strikes.

He wrote: "We have made very clear our commitments on job security and the customer experience. There remains, however, the possibility that we will face more strikes and we are training more of our people in more tasks so that we can run as comprehensive a service as possible."

The first Hitachi trains will run on the Great Western main line from 2017 and the East Coast main line from 2018.

The new trains are being introduced under the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) on routes between London Paddington and Oxford, Bristol and South Wales.

That latest open letter from Mark Hopwood in full:

Dear Customer

Thank you for bearing with us during the industrial action last week, your patience and good humour was appreciated by everyone who helped to keep things moving.

We were pleased that we were able to run over half of our normal trains and Thames Valley services were largely unaffected.

We are trying to meet the RMT this week and hope that there will be a positive outcome to any talks. We have made very clear our commitments on job security and the customer experience.

There remains, however, the possibility that we will face more strikes and we are training more of our people in more tasks so that we can run as comprehensive a service as possible.

Yours sincerely

Mark Hopwood

Managing Director, First Great Western

It would seem, reading between the lines of Mark Hopwood's open letter, that FGW expect more industrial action, meaning they are standing firm against the belligerents.

Good.

 

[notadriver]

If ASLEF go on strike in support would they train up temporary driver replacements bnm ? :roll:

 

[bnm]

Are ASLEF balloting?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Are ASLEF balloting?

Give it time... They haven't been talked to yet but they have stated that they want no extension to DOO and will not undermine the RMT's position.

 

[A-driver]

If ASLEF go on strike in support would they train up temporary driver replacements bnm ? :roll:

They can't train up temps as the standards for mainline driving are too rigid with too much of a paper trail and risk for it to be rushed through. It's easier to cut bits out of guards training which is seen as non essential (ie revenue duties etc).

Plus the cost of psychometrics, medicals, training and assessing etc wouldn't come close to breaking even for a few days of disruption.

They will, however, have all competent managers driving-so driver trainers, DMs, competent ops managers etc.

 

[notadriver]

They can't train up temps as the standards for mainline driving are too rigid with too much of a paper trail and risk for it to be rushed through. It's easier to cut bits out of guards training which is seen as non essential (ie revenue duties etc).

Plus the cost of psychometrics, medicals, training and assessing etc wouldn't come close to breaking even for a few days of disruption.

They will, however, have all competent managers driving-so driver trainers, DMs, competent ops managers etc.

Yep I know that. It was in response to strike breaking training of managers to guard FGW trains applauded by some in this forum.

 

[thelongestroad]

Give it time... They haven't been talked to yet but they have stated that they want no extension to DOO and will not undermine the RMT's position.

Problem is FGW have stated all IEPs and Turbos outside of the current DOO area will have a competent guard trained on the route, rules, traction and the doors.

Therefore they can say they're not DOO, despite the driver being the one doing the doors.

 

[BestWestern]

One hopes that ASLEF will smash this blatant disregard for the spirit of their charter, and refuse DOO being introduced anywhere on IEP. Time will tell.

 

[timbo58]

I don't really understand some of the anti RMT rhetoric on this forum to be fair.

i.e. RMT are belligerent and FG are 'standing firm' - to my mind is FG have picked a massive fight and are now crowing about their viewpoint they've managed to stand up to the blows they've had so far.

It is naive to argue that all managers who worked trains over the strike period were trained to the proper standard, and there are many more reasons an ASLEF walkout would not be so easy to fudge over

After all very easy to persuade an apprehensive junior manager to simply press this and turn that at every station and that's all there is to it......don't worry about an incident they won't happen and the driver will cover you/ control have been advised not to ask you any difficult questions........

I'm willing to bet no one warned them that in the event of a serious incident they may well be personally liable if certain procedures weren't carried out correctly, it might well be they chances are statistically low (the whole region had only 3 or 4 major incidents -by which I mean multiple fatalities/crashes/derailments in my 15 + year career on the GW region) but no one knows when or where these will happen so the responsibility is the same.

I wonder if & when driverless operation comes in the same people will be here saying the same when the few remaining persons responsible for your safety are out on the picket line?

 

[Dave1987]

From the BBC:



That latest open letter from Mark Hopwood in full:



It would seem, reading between the lines of Mark Hopwood's open letter, that FGW expect more industrial action, meaning they are standing firm against the belligerents.

Good.

Would love to see your reaction if the same type of thing happened in the industry or area that you or your family works in! FGW say that they will only run DOO if a guard is unavailable. Well by that measure they could just leave guards vacancies open and then claim they need to run DOO as no guard is available! Be very very careful what you wish for as one day it might come back to haunt you. I honestly hope one day you need a guard for something and one of the "belligerents" is unavailable or not there at all because it's a DOO service!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One hopes that ASLEF will smash this blatant disregard for the spirit of their charter, and refuse DOO being introduced anywhere on IEP. Time will tell.

I firmly hope and believe all the drivers will stand by the guards on this and strike as well if necessary.

 

[timbo58]

Actually I think that the RMT fears over DOO are very valid.

i.e what do we think FGs promise of not running a train DOO unless otherwise it would be cancelled means? (even if they do stick to that pledge of course).

Spare turns not required on the roster as you now don't need them, just run DOO as otherwise the train would be caped.

Got a busy train ticket wise? -just get another guard and run his/her train DOO
as otherwise the train would be caped.

Guard insists on a PNB or annoyingly refuses to work beyond his maximum hours -run it DOO as otherwise the train would be caped.

Guard insists on a safety fault being rectified before they will work train -run it DOO as otherwise it would be caped.

I can see why FG want this as it will eventually make all guards the FG dream -completely flexible, completely unnecessary from any legal point of view and completely dependant on keeping 'in' with the management.
Want to tell the guard to run the trolley at the same time as do tickets?
No problem, tell the guard to clean the train, no problem.

The pledge to not run trains DOO unless they have to sounds oh-so-very-reasonable until you give it any scrutiny and then it begins to sound more & more like a cynical cost cutting exercise.