Messed up, big time. £464 court fine

[sparx]

So in September I was given a penalty fare notice because I did not have my train ticket due to my own fault (lost my ticket).

It was not long after that I moved address. From September to June all correspondence was going to my old University halls address and I have only just discovered this today.

I have spent the last 4 hours trawling through the internet trying to find out the next best course of action.

Ideally, an out of court settlement would have been the best scenario, however, it's too late for that. I missed my court hearing. I also missed the date to my court fine (9th July).
I did not give any financial information to the court and as such they are asking for the full amount. I cannot afford this without a payment plan.

I have a drafted letter explaining that I cannot pay the full amount and I'm thinking about sending it out asap. I can't get through to the court because it's the weekend.

Would this be the next best course of action? More importantly, what are the implications of this whole situation?

Bylaw 18.2 is what I breached. I am in the process of applying to graduate jobs. Will it show up in my CRB check? Also, what do I have to put down if it asks "do you have any spent/unspent convictions" in future applications.

I'm so disappointed with myself.

 

[najaB]

Would this be the next best course of action? More importantly, what are the implications of this whole situation?

Bylaw 18.2 is what I breached. I am in the process of applying to graduate jobs. Will it show up in my CRB check? Also, what do I have to put down if it asks "do you have any spent/unspent convictions" in future applications.

I'm so disappointed with myself.

To quote a very famous book: don't panic.

First off, a byelaws prosecution doesn't show up on a DBS check so you don't have anything to worry about in that regard.

Secondly, if you genuinely didn't receive any of the correspondence then it is possible to 'reset the clock' and effectively have the conviction set aside. I would caution that you are sure you understand this process because it is possible you could end up with a worse outcome.

 

[DaleCooper]

Sorry to sound a cynical note but are you sure this is the whole story? I find odd that it took 9 months to realise that you weren't receiving expected correspondence, if there is more to tell it's best to bring out into the open so the best advice can be given.

 

[plastictaffy]

Drafted a letter and thinking about posting it?? I'd have had it in the post as soon as I realised what had happened. As soon as it was in the post, I'd be on the blower to them setting out my stall and explaining myself.

I also find it quite tricky to believe that it's taken you nine months to work out your correspondence address was incorrect. If you were applying for jobs, it's a fair assumption that some of the companies will have been writing to you. Or am I missing something??

 

[tony6499]

It's a bit late for anything but paying the fine now

 

[najaB]

I also find it quite tricky to believe that it's taken you nine months to work out your correspondence address was incorrect. If you were applying for jobs, it's a fair assumption that some of the companies will have been writing to you. Or am I missing something??

I think the OP may have phrased his post poorly - I read it to mean that all the correspondence from the TOC, rather than all correspondence from everyone.

 

[plastictaffy]

Maybe - but you know how pessimistic us Guards are!!!

 

[Puffing Devil]

sparx did you know about the court case? If so, why did you miss the hearing?

 

[sparx]

Drafted a letter and thinking about posting it?? I'd have had it in the post as soon as I realised what had happened. As soon as it was in the post, I'd be on the blower to them setting out my stall and explaining myself.

I also find it quite tricky to believe that it's taken you nine months to work out your correspondence address was incorrect. If you were applying for jobs, it's a fair assumption that some of the companies will have been writing to you. Or am I missing something??

Unfortunately, I'm using a rubbish smartphone that doesn't like multi quoting. I'll edit this post when on a PC.

So I'm regards to a statutory declaration. Although it's true that I honestly did not even know about the court summons, I'm weary of resetting back the clocks. Three factors disuade me from this route.btime, money and risk. Time because i want to get this over and done with as soon as possible. Money because of.legal aid needed and risk because there's no guarantee that the TOC will drop the case.


Also, the reason why I said I was 'thinking' about sending the letter is because I wanted to consult your advice first. Please don't confuse this as an act of complaceny.

Im glad that it won't show up on both forms of CRB checks. A real relief.

Does anyone know what i legally have to tick when the bit about "do you have any spent/unspect convictions" part comes up?

 

[sparx]

sparx did you know about the court case? If so, why did you miss the hearing?

I had no idea. It was in June. Its not something I'd ignore

 

[tony6499]

Why did you just not pay the penalty fare when it was issued or shortly afterwards ?

 

[DaleCooper]

What was the date of the hearing, how much time were you given to pay and when did you first learn about it?

 

[Puffing Devil]

What was the date of the hearing, how much time were you given to pay and when did you first learn about it?

If you truthfully knew nothing about the hearing and have only just discovered the fine you should make a statutory declaration. If you are honest in your declaration, you have nothing to worry about.

If you are lying about when you knew about the case, that is another matter.

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know what i legally have to tick when the bit about "do you have any spent/unspect convictions" part comes up?

Legally, you don't have to tick it because the conviction was never recorded and so can't be 'spent'. However, if I were you I would declare on any applications made in the next year or so, and then consider it self-spent.

 

[Camden]

Legally, you don't have to tick it because the conviction was never recorded and so can't be 'spent'. However, if I were you I would declare on any applications made in the next year or so, and then consider it self-spent.

If the OP declares the information on applications when they don't have to there is no way of telling where that information will end up and for how long, particularly with the growing use of online resources and third party companies to check and cross-check information. They may well be creating an un-necessary audit trail containing this information which might end up conflicting with them later on not-declaring it, which would obviously end up casting a shadow over their honesty.

The OP should find out, from someone who can definitively tell them their legal position, whether they need to declare it or not. If they have to declare it they should, and if they don't have to declare it they shouldn't.

 

[najaB]

If the OP declares the information on applications when they don't have to there is no way of telling where that information will end up and for how long, particularly with the growing use of online resources and third party companies to check and cross-check information.

I'm quite surprised to hear this, I'd appreciate more information about databases that allow Employer A to know what was filled in on Employer B's application form.

The OP should find out, from someone who can definitively tell them their legal position, whether they need to declare it or not. If they have to declare it they should, and if they don't have to declare it they shouldn't.

The legal position is clear - it's a non-recordable offence and so doesn't have to be declared. The suggestion to 'self spend' the conviction was based on the assumption that the OP will still be paying the fine while applying for jobs - it was to avoid the situation where their new employer is contacted by the court. If they are able to pay the fine before starting employment then there's no need to do this.

 

[Camden]

If a fine is levied then the initial expectation is surely that the fine will be paid, not that it will have to be forcibly extracted and as such there is no reason to assume an employer would be contacted. If you knew your employer was about to be contacted, of course tell them first - but why anyone else or under any other circumstance if you don't have legally to? There's no reason.

"Honesty is best", sure, when the saying applies. In this case, if it doesn't have to be declared then it is simply none of anyone else's business.

 

[34D]

Go to your nearest magistrates court first thing tomorrow morning. Say that you need to swear a stat Dec in front of a magistrate.

Hopefully they will slot you in during a convenient gap.

 

[island]

Legally, you don't have to tick it because the conviction was never recorded and so can't be 'spent'.

This is poor advice.

Go to your nearest magistrates court first thing tomorrow morning. Say that you need to swear a stat Dec in front of a magistrate.

Hopefully they will slot you in during a convenient gap.

This is good advice.

 

[najaB]

This is poor advice.

You'll note that in my original reply I gave that option, however the OP has since said that (s)he is reticent to make a statutory declaration.

If they choose not to make the declaration then the conviction would stand, but would not be recordable.

 

[sparx]

Go to your nearest magistrates court first thing tomorrow morning. Say that you need to swear a stat Dec in front of a magistrate.

Hopefully they will slot you in during a convenient gap.

Would a stat dec not just prolong the whole process?

Would I be able to arrange an out of court settlement if I did go ahead with the stat dec? I'm assuming I would not have to pay victim surcharge etc.

 

[sparx]

If you truthfully knew nothing about the hearing and have only just discovered the fine you should make a statutory declaration. If you are honest in your declaration, you have nothing to worry about.

If you are lying about when you knew about the case, that is another matter.

What are the benefits of a stat dec in this case?

 

[Puffing Devil]

What are the benefits of a stat dec in this case?

If you make a stat dec you reset the clock on the prosecution. For you, this would have two benefits:

1. By having no contact with the court your income has been assumed to be £400/week and your fine has been set at that level. By going back to court you will have your fine set commensurate with your income. You will pay less. Enforcement will stop. You will be able to agree a payment schedule.
2. By resetting the clock you will not be convicted in any way shape or form. Unless your applications ask about pending convictions, you can answer tuthfully about your convictions on any current applications. (Until the matter is heard again in court)

As I said before, making a stat dec untruthfully can land you in deep trouble.

 

[34D]

Would a stat dec not just prolong the whole process?

Would I be able to arrange an out of court settlement if I did go ahead with the stat dec? I'm assuming I would not have to pay victim surcharge etc.

Once Stat Dec done, my second step would be some form of contact with the TOC prosecutor. Whether that is from a solicitor or from yourself I will let you decide. Yes, it is possible they will accept an out of court settlement.

But yes, when the case is reheard (if that happens) you would be able to present both mitigation and means info.

If then guilty, fine may well be lower. There would still be a victim surcharge. Costs would be upto the bench.

 

[455driver]

How much time elapsed between your details being taken and you moving?
Did you arrange for your mail to be redirected/forwarded on?
If so for how long?
Did you not think to contact them about the change of address?

Last but not least and please be honest-
Did you think moving would make this go away?

Apologies for being blunt but I am a cynical old git!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you truthfully knew nothing about the hearing and have only just discovered the fine you should make a statutory declaration. If you are honest in your declaration, you have nothing to worry about.

If you are lying about when you knew about the case, that is another matter.

I agree.
It would be the correct action to take if you had absolutely no knowledge of the proceedings (including no knowledge that there would be proceedings following the incident during travel).

To illustrate Puffing Devil's reference to "when you knew", I would add that any knowledge of unopened and/or uncollected mail that you had not read would nullify the Statutory Declaration (SD), and a false statement in a SD is treated as Contempt of Court, an action which can carry a custodial sentence.
That's just a warning which I hope is helpful in deciding what to do next.

A SD can be issued without solicitor's costs by going into the Magistrates Courts Clerk's Office where you will be assisted in completing the Declaration.
Be aware that by issuing a SD the original offence does not dissapear, it is only the Court proceedings which will be set aside due to your ignorance of them, they will be re-heard at a later date, and the same evidence will be produced to prosecute the same offence.

As stated by najaB, a Byelaw offence should not appear in a standard DBS check, though should appear in an enhanced vetting check for national security roles.

The amount of £464 comprises 4 elements. One of these is the Fine (which will be related to evidenced income) and one is the Victim Surcharge, which is a percentage of the Fine. The other factors (Prosecution costs and Criminal Court Charge (where applicable) ) will be unnaffected by any evidence of your means to pay.

 

[sparx]

How much time elapsed between your details being taken and you moving?
Did you arrange for your mail to be redirected/forwarded on?
If so for how long?
Did you not think to contact them about the change of address?

Last but not least and please be honest-
Did you think moving would make this go away?

Apologies for being blunt but I am a cynical old git!

My details were taken on the 10th Sept. I moved in November. I read the penalty fare letter saying I had to pay £124 but at the time I chose to ignore it because I thought they would not bother taking it to court (due to costs involved. Bigger fish to fry logic etc). This viewpoint was further aided by poor advice from friends.


After I moved in November, I did not contact the TOC to tell the I moved house. I didn't expect it to go as far as it has. I had no idea about the letter for with the date of the court appearance (mid June).

I hope I have filled you in with any missing detail. Would a stat dec still be the next best course of action.

I agree.
It would be the correct action to take if you had absolutely no knowledge of the proceedings (including no knowledge that there would be proceedings following the incident during travel).

To illustrate Puffing Devil's reference to "when you knew", I would add that any knowledge of unopened and/or uncollected mail that you had not read would nullify the Statutory Declaration (SD), and a false statement in a SD is treated as Contempt of Court, an action which can carry a custodial sentence.
That's just a warning which I hope is helpful in deciding what to do next.

A SD can be issued without solicitor's costs by going into the Magistrates Courts Clerk's Office where you will be assisted in completing the Declaration.
Be aware that by issuing a SD the original offence does not dissapear, it is only the Court proceedings which will be set aside due to your ignorance of them, they will be re-heard at a later date, and the same evidence will be produced to prosecute the same offence.

As stated by najaB, a Byelaw offence should not appear in a standard DBS check, though should appear in an enhanced vetting check for national security roles.

The amount of £464 comprises 4 elements. One of these is the Fine (which will be related to evidenced income) and one is the Victim Surcharge, which is a percentage of the Fine. The other factors (Prosecution costs and Criminal Court Charge (where applicable) ) will be unnaffected by any evidence of your means to pay.

Hi Davy, please see the above reply. Should I still go with the stat dec?

 

[ian959]

My details were taken on the 10th Sept. I moved in November. I read the penalty fare letter saying I had to pay £124 but at the time I chose to ignore it because I thought they would not bother taking it to court (due to costs involved. Bigger fish to fry logic etc). This viewpoint was further aided by poor advice from friends.


After I moved in November, I did not contact the TOC to tell the I moved house. I didn't expect it to go as far as it has. I had no idea about the letter for with the date of the court appearance (mid June).

I hope I have filled you in with any missing detail. Would a stat dec still be the next best course of action.

So the reality is you were fully aware of the penalty fare, the letter you received probably said something about what would happen if you did not pay the penalty fare and you just chose to ignore it. Swearing a stat dec to say you knew nothing about the proceedings against you is not exactly telling the truth is it? You have now found out the consequences of burying your head in the sand, pay up and learn...

 

[JaJaWa]

Did the knowledge that you were moving house affect your decision to give the address you did, not pay the penalty fare, and not inform the train company of the move...

 

[34D]

So the reality is you were fully aware of the penalty fare, the letter you received probably said something about what would happen if you did not pay the penalty fare and you just chose to ignore it. Swearing a stat dec to say you knew nothing about the proceedings against you is not exactly telling the truth is it? You have now found out the consequences of burying your head in the sand, pay up and learn...

He can genuinely swear that "I did not know about the proceedings against me" as he was unaware of the court matter.

OP: I hope you are sat waiting in your local mags court right now.