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Govt. to review Brighton Main Line capacity

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LTJ87

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Another rail announcement buried in today's Budget: The Govt is to review possible infrastructure improvements on the Brighton Main Line and revisit the feasibility of the 2nd Brighton Main Line

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...232/50325_Summer_Budget_15_Web_Accessible.pdf

1.328 The government will extend the scope of the Lewes-Uckfield study to look at improving rail links between London and the south coast, including upgrades to existing routes, consideration of the Brighton Main Line corridor, and re-examination of the DfT’s feasibility study on BML2.
 
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steamybrian

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It is only repeating what they said in March budget when £100k was allocated for (another) study into reopening Uckfield-Lewes line.
 

evergreenadam

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Also other bits of news from the Summer Budget:

New Stations Fund: The government will run a further round of the New Stations Fund with up to £20 million in total available for projects, and consider proposals including any put forward for a new station between Castle Cary and Taunton. The extended round of the New Stations Fund will also be used to support a local bid for stations on the Robin Hood Line to Edwinstowe and Ollerton, subject to a business case.

HS1 to Hastings: The rail industry has been asked to explore options for extending HS1 services to Hastings and Rye in the forthcoming Kent Route Study, for presentation to Ministers in 2016
 

Stats

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If only Network Rail did a Route Study to look at improving rail links between London and the south coast, including upgrades to existing routes, consideration of the Brighton Main Line corridor, and re-examination of the DfT’s feasibility study on BML2...

Oh wait....
 
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steamybrian

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Can I ask the moderators ..
...to combine this thread with the "Emergency Budget" thread which is duplicating what has been said above
 

hwl

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If only Network Rail did a Route Study to look at improving rail links between London and the south coast, including upgrades to existing routes, consideration of the Brighton Main Line corridor, and re-examination of the DfT’s feasibility study on BML2...

Oh wait....

Indeed, we've seen the draft and it wasn't complimentary about BML2...
I wonder what the final one will say;)
 

swt_passenger

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How many times will they have to do this before they prove to BML2 fans that it doesn't work?
 

61653 HTAFC

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As I understand it, the main problem with BML2 is where to send the trains through the congested and built up areas of South London. If they're to run via East Croydon and Clapham Junction then they'll still be fighting for paths with existing BML services. Compared to tackling that issue, the Uckfield to Lewes section practically builds itself.
 
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B&W

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Have always thought an East Arundel curve would be better, no housing near, over low grade land with not even footpaths to worry about.
Yes the West coastway services have limited platforms at Brighton but in Emergency/Weekend diversions Hove can be used as a terminus, or round the Cliftonville to terminate Preston Park changing at Hove and trains would be pretty frequent from Hove to Brighton if the BML was shut south of TB or HH.

I suspect the trouble is a normal service would be just 1TPH extension of the Brighton West Worthing service as a stopper to Gatwick etc and the maths for this do not add up. If only the value to diverted trains ( which happen very regularly) were added in then it might change the calculations.

Brian
 

swt_passenger

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Again NR have explained in an RUS (Sussex) that the Arundel Curve doesn't provide any capacity relief for the BML, because IIRC there are no paths available for any diverted services north of Horsham.
 

MarkyT

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As I understand it, the main problem with BML2 is where to send the trains through the congested and built up areas of South London. If they're to run via East Croydon and Clapham Junction then they'll still be fighting for paths with existing BML services. Compared to tackling that issue, the Uckfield to Lewes section practically builds itself.

NR have plans for widening East Croydon station to eight platforms and some reconfiguration of the junctions and flyovers to the north of there out to Selhurst and Norwood Junction. The new north entrance and footbridge at East Croydon is built to accommodate the extra platforms. Thameslink will be able to take a lot more Brighton Line traffic once London Bridge is finished, the new fleet is available and the core ETCS+ATO resignalling is complete.
 

Kettledrum

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As I understand it, the main problem with BML2 is where to send the trains through the congested and built up areas of South London. If they're to run via East Croydon and Clapham Junction then they'll still be fighting for paths with existing BML services. Compared to tackling that issue, the Uckfield to Lewes section practically builds itself.

Yes - spot on. East Croydon to central London needs a whole new route.

The demand is there for Uckfield, Lewes and on the existing Brighton Main Line. All the official studies so far have completely ducked the issue and arranged the figures and assumptions to avoid doing anything.
 

dave12435

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Well if it happens I will be surprised as all the Conservatives want to do is cut everything
 

fgwrich

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Yes - spot on. East Croydon to central London needs a whole new route.

The demand is there for Uckfield, Lewes and on the existing Brighton Main Line. All the official studies so far have completely ducked the issue and arranged the figures and assumptions to avoid doing anything.

With the mentioning of new platforms at East Croydon in the future, could you not effectively shift 2 of the mainline tracks over from a point just before South Croydon, remove the flat crossing, and segregate the BML from a Lewis/Uckfield/EG until you meat a revised junction just to the north of East Croydon station? Done ideally with the intention of sending most of the BML2 services towards London Bridge (if it can handle it)?
 

yorksrob

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I hope the inclusion of other routes in the study doesn't preclude action on getting Lewes - Uckfield reopened.

Someone mentioned the Arundel curve proposal, which would be fine as a diversion. However, as far as new services are concerned, North of Epsom must have capacity problems, otherwise why have there been no proposals to make better use of the mid-Sussex line from Bognor and Chichester to relieve the main line (something I would also like to see).
 

mr_jrt

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With the mentioning of new platforms at East Croydon in the future, could you not effectively shift 2 of the mainline tracks over from a point just before South Croydon, remove the flat crossing, and segregate the BML from a Lewis/Uckfield/EG until you meat a revised junction just to the north of East Croydon station? Done ideally with the intention of sending most of the BML2 services towards London Bridge (if it can handle it)?

If you cut heavily into the embankment you might be able to squeeze another track in between South Croydon and East Croydon, but you would still only end up with 6 tracks feeding into 8 platforms at East Croydon. If the will was there you could quite easily have 6 north of there to Windmill Junction, which when you combine with the pair to West Croydon gives you a nice clean 8 lines in and 8 lines out arrangement, but I suspect the lack of interchanges means total route segregation (i.e. all via Redhill traffic via Selhurst, all via Oxted and all West Croydon traffic via Norwood) wouldn't be too popular unless it dramatically increased capacity. :(
 

krus_aragon

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Can I ask the moderators ..
...to combine this thread with the "Emergency Budget" thread which is duplicating what has been said above

Yes you can.


You'll be far quicker if you send a PM to a moderator, or "report" your own post to bring it to their attention. Either that, or you just wait until one of them happens to read this thread. ;)
 
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yorksrob

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To be fair, the 'emergency budget' thread seems to be largely concerned with wider economic issues. I feel it would be far better to keep this concise railway related discussion as a separate thread.
 

Bald Rick

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The demand is there for Uckfield, Lewes and on the existing Brighton Main Line. All the official studies so far have completely ducked the issue and arranged the figures and assumptions to avoid doing anything.

Really?

Evidence?
 

tsr

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However, as far as new services are concerned, North of Epsom must have capacity problems, otherwise why have there been no proposals to make better use of the mid-Sussex line from Bognor and Chichester to relieve the main line (something I would also like to see).

It would be good to see the "Portsmouth Lines" used to provide extra capacity for Arun Valley services North of Horsham. Unfortunately you would hit several issues which could be mitigated with infrastructure upgrades, and others which would be more difficult geographically.

Issue 1: Signalling between Warnham and Betchworth Tunnel is not capable of accepting many (or indeed probably any) significant extra services in peak hours, and likely only a few extras off-peak. This means that focus is limited to essential services to the stations en-route, which already get enough of a raw deal (and unfortunately associated usage statistics) as it is. It is also quite possible that the track itself would need upgrades to cope with more services. The line uses axle counters with long signal sections, including over a few bits of jointed track (hence problems implementing track circuits, or at least so far as I can see).

Issue 2: There are very few contingency options for looping defective trains, overtaking stopping services and suchlike between Dorking and West Croydon / Streatham. It is only thanks to reasonably decent fleet/infrastructure reliability that the lines operate a pretty good service, albeit with the effects of congestion elsewhere hitting PPM in the peaks. Adding a variety of new services, different fleets and so on may cause issues with the reliability of the service, especially without any new crossovers to allow bi-directional working at key locations.

Issue 3: Capacity from Epsom onwards, especially at the junctions at Epsom and Sutton, can be tricky. I think the days will eventually come when it is accepted that Epsom's layout may need a rethink, but not without significant expense if it is to be of appreciable benefit (think up to the level of possible grade separation). Sutton is another matter, with complex junctions each end of the station as well, but also a very limited amount of usable space to work with. Remodelling of / adding a bay platform to the island in the middle of the station and reducing the space occupied by the junction North of there may work to allow extra capacity for users of Sutton station itself, but Thameslink services still need to be able to get to the correct routes, and there is a definite need for a timetable with good connections to and from the Wallington and Portsmouth Lines routes.

Issue 4: Horsham caters for a variety of local traffic which has grown used to what is (at times) an absurd frequency of services towards Three Bridges and onwards via the BML. There would be a fight to reduce either long-distance services via Gatwick or stopping services, although as the user groups are gradually eroding stops on the fast Arun Valley services North of Horsham, I can see this will possibly progress to wanting almost-completely "express" services to London. This may open a little bit of a window for services to run fast to (say) Sutton, Clapham Junction and London Victoria only.

There have been instances in times past where, even at peak times, London-Arun Valley services have been diverted in extremis via Dorking vice Three Bridges*. This is not especially slow once bottlenecks have been cleared, but for a permanent solution which satisfies most users, something would need to be done - probably quite subtly - about redefining where passengers need to go to make their services more efficient. It would also be harder for Southern Control to justify skipping so many stops on late-running Horsham stoppers (the 2Cxx service group, which would be much of the remainder of services via the stations they serve), due to the overall reduction in trains via Three Bridges, meaning that service recovery would be harder and units would need to be stepped up. It remains to be seen if this could be helped with a more consistent service pattern and maybe better stock diagrams with Thameslink stoppers from 2018.

Naturally, all of the above could be helped by a number of things. Whenever Dorking does actually get resignalled, there could perhaps be movement made then. Better connections could be catered for by a dedicated accessible bridge and connecting timetable between Dorking Main and Deepdene stations, in order to serve stations in the Redhill area. SWT could reduce pathing conflicts by splitting trains at Leatherhead or Epsom, if the precious extra minutes in the timetable became available for that. Sutton could be re-worked to provide dedicated service pairs running over the junctions to the North of the station for longer periods per hour (maybe). And more accurate revenue figures could be obtained by putting more conductors on Southern services in the area, with incentives (and backup) for consistent checking on the sections of routes where they do not dispatch the trains. All these things may help streamline the Portsmouth Lines, giving greater capacity and thus a diversion route away from the BML. This would free up Three Bridges/South Croydon Jn-Clapham Jn for services from the Oxted, Redhill and mainline routes. It could also be possible to create a "second Thameslink" by running services from Horsham and the Arun Valley through to Watford Junction and the WCML by utilising the near-grade-separation of the Fast and Slow spurs at Streatham South/North Jns, and either Pouparts or Falcon Junctions depending on the direction of travel. This in turn would help with platforming at Victoria, especially during disruption, and the default 8 coach lengths of many Horsham services would help mitigate against overcrowding on the WLL. But maybe I am getting a touch carried away here... ;)

* But less often than via Hove, which must say something about infrastructure reliability and capacity.
 
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sarahj

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It would be good to see the "Portsmouth Lines" used to provide extra capacity for Arun Valley services North of Horsham. Unfortunately you would hit several issues which could be mitigated with infrastructure upgrades, and others which would be more difficult geographically.

Issue 1: Signalling between Warnham and Betchworth Tunnel is not capable of accepting many (or indeed probably any) significant extra services in peak hours, and likely only a few extras off-peak. This means that focus is limited to essential services to the stations en-route, which already get enough of a raw deal (and unfortunately associated usage statistics) as it is. It is also quite possible that the track itself would need upgrades to cope with more services. The line uses axle counters with long signal sections, including over a few bits of jointed track (hence problems implementing track circuits, or at least so far as I can see).

Issue 2: There are very few contingency options for looping defective trains, overtaking stopping services and suchlike between Dorking and West Croydon / Streatham. It is only thanks to reasonably decent fleet/infrastructure reliability that the lines operate a pretty good service, albeit with the effects of congestion elsewhere hitting PPM in the peaks. Adding a variety of new services, different fleets and so on may cause issues with the reliability of the service, especially without any new crossovers to allow bi-directional working at key locations.

Issue 3: Capacity from Epsom onwards, especially at the junctions at Epsom and Sutton, can be tricky. I think the days will eventually come when it is accepted that Epsom's layout may need a rethink, but not without significant expense if it is to be of appreciable benefit (think up to the level of possible grade separation). Sutton is another matter, with complex junctions each end of the station as well, but also a very limited amount of usable space to work with. Remodelling of / adding a bay platform to the island in the middle of the station and reducing the space occupied by the junction North of there may work to allow extra capacity for users of Sutton station itself, but Thameslink services still need to be able to get to the correct routes, and there is a definite need for a timetable with good connections to and from the Wallington and Portsmouth Lines routes.

Issue 4: Horsham caters for a variety of local traffic which has grown used to what is (at times) an absurd frequency of services towards Three Bridges and onwards via the BML. There would be a fight to reduce either long-distance services via Gatwick or stopping services, although as the user groups are gradually eroding stops on the fast Arun Valley services North of Horsham, I can see this will possibly progress to wanting almost-completely "express" services to London. This may open a little bit of a window for services to run fast to (say) Sutton, Clapham Junction and London Victoria only.

There have been instances in times past where, even at peak times, London-Arun Valley services have been diverted in extremis via Dorking vice Three Bridges*. This is not especially slow once bottlenecks have been cleared, but for a permanent solution which satisfies most users, something would need to be done - probably quite subtly - about redefining where passengers need to go to make their services more efficient. It would also be harder for Southern Control to justify skipping so many stops on late-running Horsham stoppers (the 2Cxx service group, which would be much of the remainder of services via the stations they serve), due to the overall reduction in trains via Three Bridges, meaning that service recovery would be harder and units would need to be stepped up. It remains to be seen if this could be helped with a more consistent service pattern and maybe better stock diagrams with Thameslink stoppers from 2018.

Naturally, all of the above could be helped by a number of things. Whenever Dorking does actually get resignalled, there could perhaps be movement made then. Better connections could be catered for by a dedicated accessible bridge and connecting timetable between Dorking Main and Deepdene stations, in order to serve stations in the Redhill area. SWT could reduce pathing conflicts by splitting trains at Leatherhead or Epsom, if the precious extra minutes in the timetable became available for that. Sutton could be re-worked to provide dedicated service pairs running over the junctions to the North of the station for longer periods per hour (maybe). And more accurate revenue figures could be obtained by putting more conductors on Southern services in the area, with incentives (and backup) for consistent checking on the sections of routes where they do not dispatch the trains. All these things may help streamline the Portsmouth Lines, giving greater capacity and thus a diversion route away from the BML. This would free up Three Bridges/South Croydon Jn-Clapham Jn for services from the Oxted, Redhill and mainline routes. It could also be possible to create a "second Thameslink" by running services from Horsham and the Arun Valley through to Watford Junction and the WCML by utilising the near-grade-separation of the Fast and Slow spurs at Streatham South/North Jns, and either Pouparts or Falcon Junctions depending on the direction of travel. This in turn would help with platforming at Victoria, especially during disruption, and the default 8 coach lengths of many Horsham services would help mitigate against overcrowding on the WLL. But maybe I am getting a touch carried away here... ;)

* But less often than via Hove, which must say something about infrastructure reliability and capacity.


And also the fact that Barnham, Horsham, Redhill, Brighton, Three Bridges etc staff are all route trained on the line via hove and the cliftonville spur, but only a Horsham, Redhill and a few others (the smaller depots) are route trained on the Horsham/ Dorking line. No point sending trains that way if you aint got the staff to run em. In fact as far as us in Brighton, who have very high route knowledge, the line from Horsham to Dorking might as well have a sign saying ' here be dragons' for all we know about it. :lol:
 
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yorksrob

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Really?

Evidence?

According to the long standing reinstatement campaign, even during the 1960's when the railway wasn't exactly booming, more passengers travelled South from Uckfield than North. This suggests to me that the market would be even better in this day and age.
 

Yabbadabba

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The two new platforms and the 6th track between East Croydon and Windmill Bridge Junction appears to so far in the distant future that as a member of staff likely to lose my job when the area transfers to the ROC, that the management won't even engage any talks until nearer the time and that time appears to be moving towards CP7 at the earliest unless the treasury suddenly releases lots of wonga.
 

carriageline

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The two new platforms and the 6th track between East Croydon and Windmill Bridge Junction appears to so far in the distant future that as a member of staff likely to lose my job when the area transfers to the ROC, that the management won't even engage any talks until nearer the time and that time appears to be moving towards CP7 at the earliest unless the treasury suddenly releases lots of wonga.


Honestly, I highly doubt you will be made redundant. I have spoke to a lot of people who will just take the money and go, but with latest developments, I'll be surprised if future schemes even use VS.

Not a slight at you, but it's something really getting to me. A lot of people are saying and worrying about getting made redundant, but yet vacancies at the ROC are having to go external due to no internal interest. If people were this worried they would apply. I know a lot of people see at as 'hell on earth' but 99% of people up here think it's the best move they made and love it.
 

HSTEd

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This is where I suggest a South Coast Shinkansen - running from central London to the coast near Brighton and hence to Southampton and on to Exeter.
Revolutionising rail transport in the South and South West and creating a glorious new future.

Funny part is its still more practical than BML2 based on their current proposals.
 

Yabbadabba

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Honestly, I highly doubt you will be made redundant. I have spoke to a lot of people who will just take the money and go, but with latest developments, I'll be surprised if future schemes even use VS.

Not a slight at you, but it's something really getting to me. A lot of people are saying and worrying about getting made redundant, but yet vacancies at the ROC are having to go external due to no internal interest. If people were this worried they would apply. I know a lot of people see at as 'hell on earth' but 99% of people up here think it's the best move they made and love it.

No one that I know at the moment is willing to apply for a down grade when we should get PTR&R displacement and retain our grade. The majority of staff are hanging on for VS with the remainder clinging to the hope that the company honours the PTR&R agreement. You will not find many button pushes looking to become mouse clickers from our place, some but not many.
 
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