Barrow-in-Furness avoid line (Park South)

[thenorthern]

Looking at the last proposals with Alliance Rail (GNWR) I notice that their proposed trains to Workington and Whitehaven called at Carnforth but didn't call at Barrow-in-Furness which means its likely they planned to use the Park South line that avoids Barrow-in-Furness.

I know that the line regularly carries freight particularly nuclear flasks but I was wondering does this line still ever carry passenger trains? Also has it ever had regular timetabled passenger trains using it?

I know when there was a problem at Roose First North Western once used the line and then reversed trains as Askham but there was something about the line wasn't cleared for 158s or 175s so although it was a diversion it wasn't a very good one and I don't know if Northern Rail would still choose this option if they had to.

 

[QueensCurve]

Looking at the last proposals with Alliance Rail (GNWR) I notice that their proposed trains to Workington and Whitehaven called at Carnforth but didn't call at Barrow-in-Furness which means its likely they planned to use the Park South line that avoids Barrow-in-Furness.

I know that the line regularly carries freight particularly nuclear flasks but I was wondering does this line still ever carry passenger trains? Also has it ever had regular timetabled passenger trains using it?

I know when there was a problem at Roose First North Western once used the line and then reversed trains as Askham but there was something about the line wasn't cleared for 158s or 175s so although it was a diversion it wasn't a very good one and I don't know if Northern Rail would still choose this option if they had to.

There have been "heritage" trains over this route in the recent past, but I don't recall franchised (or BR) passenger trains ever using it.

The Dalton to Park South line is very short, but the population to be served is in Barrow.

 

[Crossover]

Still sees railtours - there is one booked over it tomorrow in fact. Not sure if anything else passenger uses it though (not sure if any ECS's use it either)

 

[irongecko]

It would be madness not to serve Barrow. It's the biggest town for quite a long way.

 

[themiller]

Still sees railtours - there is one booked over it tomorrow in fact. Not sure if anything else passenger uses it though (not sure if any ECS's use it either)

I remember in the late 1980s going on a railtour from Seascale to York via the S&C. The stock was a first generation DMU sent from Buxton and was about 6 cars long. On the way back we were held up due to a box being switched out between Settle Jct and Carnforth which made us rather late so we were sent via the Dalton loop and the driver really gave it some welly. I've never done the Cumbria Coast line so fast - quite exhilarating!

 

[70014IronDuke]

There have been "heritage" trains over this route in the recent past, but I don't recall franchised (or BR) passenger trains ever using it.

The Dalton to Park South line is very short, but the population to be served is in Barrow.

You sound as if you know the local scene much better than I do, but ISTR seeing a timetabled train only 2 or 3 years ago which appeared to use this avoiding route.

At least it was timetabled to avoid Barrow, and it saved time - something like 12/15 minutes - by doing so. As I recall, it was one of the lunchtime departures from Carlisle to Lancaster (or Preston). By that I means somewhere in the 12.00 - 14.30 slot - apologies, I realise that is is a big 'slot'!

AFAIR, there was no equivalent return service.

Has someone got such recent timetables to hand?

Incidentally, is it such a stupid thing to do? a) It signficantly reduces journey times from the Cumbrian coast to Lancaster/Preston (and possibly gives them a much faster connection to onward destinations) b) if the train stops at Dalton and allows a decent connection from there into Barrow (I assume such a routing would be allowed?), then Barrow passengers can still use it and c) by doing this move, it allows a quicker return working from Lancaster or Preston.

Likewise, in the reverse direction, if the train stops at Askam, depending on connections, it could still be useful to Barrow passengers - if allowed for in the routing guide. Obviously, not for all trains, but maybe one or two selected trains per day, it it enabled faster travel to/from Euston or Birmingham.

 

[MarkyT]

Incidentally, is it such a stupid thing to do? a) It signficantly reduces journey times from the Cumbrian coast to Lancaster/Preston

Not daft but very difficult to justify. You'd save about 20 minutes, but it's a sparse service along the coast and most trains from Carlisle terminate at Barrow anyway. Of the three regular weekday through trains to Preston or Lancaster, if any of those avoided Barrow they could create big gaps in service to and from the largest local traffic attractor. If peak overcrowding ever became a problem from the coast to the Lancaster area[1], then perhaps any additional crowd buster trains could avoid Barrow, but otherwise I think it's a non-starter.

[1] The first through train from the coast doesn't get to Lancaster until 9:13 so probably not a major commuter flow.

P.S. I remember being taken as a child on numerous Cumbrian steam specials in the 1970s, usually some itinerary via the coast or the Settle and Carlisle or some combination of the two. The Coast ones always used the Barrow cut-off and often involved a stop there. Even without a stop, the low speed on the sharp curve always afforded a good opportunity to lean out and view the locomotive from the train.

 

[30907]

You sound as if you know the local scene much better than I do, but ISTR seeing a timetabled train only 2 or 3 years ago which appeared to use this avoiding route.

At least it was timetabled to avoid Barrow, and it saved time - something like 12/15 minutes - by doing so. As I recall, it was one of the lunchtime departures from Carlisle to Lancaster (or Preston). By that I means somewhere in the 12.00 - 14.30 slot - apologies, I realise that is is a big 'slot'!

AFAIR, there was no equivalent return service.

Has someone got such recent timetables to hand?

I've checked 10 years back on the PSUL site and can't find it. I wonder if it was a typo? It would be about par for the NRTT! Mind you, that doesn't account for the time saving.

 

[thenorthern]

I can't find the train either.

Looking at GNWR's plans for Workington and Whitehaven trains I can see why they would want to avoid Barrow-in-Furness though as Barrow station to Park South Junction is single track (I think it was singled in the late 1980s) which would add quite a bit onto journey times. I also don't understand how they planned to take a Pendolino or Polaris train along the coast through Braystones and Nethertown given the very low linespeed and rolling stock restrictions.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I've checked 10 years back on the PSUL site and can't find it. I wonder if it was a typo? It would be about par for the NRTT! Mind you, that doesn't account for the time saving.

Hmmm. That's weird. If I'd had to guess, I'd have said it was 2012-2013 Dec timetable. Possibly 2011 - 2012. Dep Carlisle around 13.30. (But I could be out by an hour or so each way.)

I'm talking about NR's electronic timetable. It seemed to be specifically chosen as a speeded up train: I mean, it missed out one or two of the halts etc on the Cumbrian Coast, plus Barrow. I assumed it was meant as the 'flagship' (such as it was ) coast to Lancaster service, meant to be the most attractive to long-distance passengers, ie anyone going on from Lancaster. (I think it went to Lancaster, not Preston.)

Well, now I'm truly flummoxed!

 

[yorksrob]

I can't find the train either.

Looking at GNWR's plans for Workington and Whitehaven trains I can see why they would want to avoid Barrow-in-Furness though as Barrow station to Park South Junction is single track (I think it was singled in the late 1980s) which would add quite a bit onto journey times. I also don't understand how they planned to take a Pendolino or Polaris train along the coast through Braystones and Nethertown given the very low linespeed and rolling stock restrictions.

I understand that one of the justifications of the proposed closure of the Settle Carlisle was that the coast could be used as an alternative diversion. Given the restricted clearances, I'm not convinced that even Mk3's would have been able to use it.

 

[thenorthern]

I understand that one of the justifications of the proposed closure of the Settle Carlisle was that the coast could be used as an alternative diversion. Given the restricted clearances, I'm not convinced that even Mk3's would have been able to use it.

I think Mark 2 and 3 coaching stock was banned beyond Sellafield until about 2013ish because of the low bridges particularly north of Maryport.

I am sure that there are restrictions on the Park south line with rolling stock but I am not sure what.

 

[30907]

Hmmm. That's weird. If I'd had to guess, I'd have said it was 2012-2013 Dec timetable. Possibly 2011 - 2012. Dep Carlisle around 13.30. (But I could be out by an hour or so each way.)

I'm talking about NR's electronic timetable. It seemed to be specifically chosen as a speeded up train: I mean, it missed out one or two of the halts etc on the Cumbrian Coast, plus Barrow. I assumed it was meant as the 'flagship' (such as it was ) coast to Lancaster service, meant to be the most attractive to long-distance passengers, ie anyone going on from Lancaster. (I think it went to Lancaster, not Preston.)

Well, now I'm truly flummoxed!

Not in Summer 11 or 13 printed NRTTs.

 

[thenorthern]

I have checked the digital archive of Northern Rail timetables and can't see anything either.

Looking at the the route clearances anything other than Class 142, 144, 153 and 156s are banned beyond Millom which means unless Alliance Rail planned to run services London Euston to Workington and Whitehaven on sprinters some improvements would first need to take place.

175s and 185s are allowed to Millom. First North Western and First TP Express used to run some Manchester trains through to Millom. Both of these are allow on the Barrow Cut off.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not in Summer 11 or 13 printed NRTTs.

Another episode like this, and I'll turn myself over the folks in white coats ......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have checked the digital archive of Northern Rail timetables and can't see anything either.
.......

Nurse, over here, please!

 

[thenorthern]

Nurse, over here, please!

Here are some of the Timetables I have for the coast:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030318...k/timetables/Summer2002PDF/20ttsummer2002.pdf First North Western Summer 2002

http://web.archive.org/web/20040420...hwestern.co.uk/timetables/winter2003/tt20.pdf First North Western Winter 2003

I will try and locate the Northern Rail ones, I can tell you how to access old timetables for any TOC if you would like.

 

[Darren R]

Could the mystery service have been connected to when the line from Carnforth was severed by the reconstruction of Arnside Viaduct a few years back? Although I can't find any evidence in the timetables either, there is something ringing a distant bell with me about passenger trains using the Barrow Avoiding Line, but not in the way the OP suggests.

 

[SeanG]

Didn't realise that there used to be through services up the coast from Manchester.

Also, some service are marked as "limited bike space". Would this be due to the rolling stock or simply the passenger numbers?

 

[thenorthern]

Didn't realise that there used to be through services up the coast from Manchester.

That was before Class 175s were introduced on the Furness line for though trains and Class 175s are banned beyond Millom.

 

[D6975]

There was definitely a southbound service around tea-time that did the Barrow avoid a few years ago. I know because I was intending to do the line, had my itinerary planned and everything only to be scuppered by family matters.

Edit - been trying to find the spreadsheet with the itinerary on it, but it looks like it's long gone.
I seem to recall that it involved catching the 16 : 30 ish off Barrow up the coast a couple of stations, then 17 : 00 ish from there back to Lancaster. (poss 1 hr earlier?)

I did a NW rover in Mar 2013 and was quite peeved to discover that the service had gone, so it must have been around 2010/11 that it ran (poss slightly earlier).

 

[cuccir]

Incidentally, is it such a stupid thing to do? a) It signficantly reduces journey times from the Cumbrian coast to Lancaster/Preston (and possibly gives them a much faster connection to onward destinations) b) if the train stops at Dalton and allows a decent connection from there into Barrow (I assume such a routing would be allowed?), then Barrow passengers can still use it and c) by doing this move, it allows a quicker return working from Lancaster or Preston.

Likewise, in the reverse direction, if the train stops at Askam, depending on connections, it could still be useful to Barrow passengers - if allowed for in the routing guide. Obviously, not for all trains, but maybe one or two selected trains per day, it it enabled faster travel to/from Euston or Birmingham.

I doubt that Dalton would be large enough for whatever stock is being planned - it's currently too short for all doors on 185s, with passengers having to move to a central door. I imagine that Askam would have similar problems, and is also poorly connected to Barrow by bus and indeed by the slow and infrequent CCL services.

If Dalton is upgraded then that would probably work - it's as close to much of Barrow as Barrow station itself is. However that would require significant investment. The obvious Furness station to stop at if avoiding Barrow is Ulverston, which is itself would attract some travellers and might grab people from the South Lake District. Even then it would be difficult to see why people from Barrow would chose to take the 1 or 2 Alliance trains a day from Ulverston when they can continue on their train to Lancaster which has 1-2 an hour as well as other connections. Some who can park up at Ulverston would go for it though I'm sure.

Fundamentally, though, does it make much sense getting to Whitehaven and Workington 20 minutes earlier by bypassing a town with a population that's bigger than those two combined?

 

[QueensCurve]

You sound as if you know the local scene much better than I do, but ISTR seeing a timetabled train only 2 or 3 years ago which appeared to use this avoiding route.

At least it was timetabled to avoid Barrow, and it saved time - something like 12/15 minutes - by doing so. As I recall, it was one of the lunchtime departures from Carlisle to Lancaster (or Preston). By that I means somewhere in the 12.00 - 14.30 slot - apologies, I realise that is is a big 'slot'!

AFAIR, there was no equivalent return service.

Has someone got such recent timetables to hand?

Incidentally, is it such a stupid thing to do? a) It signficantly reduces journey times from the Cumbrian coast to Lancaster/Preston (and possibly gives them a much faster connection to onward destinations) b) if the train stops at Dalton and allows a decent connection from there into Barrow (I assume such a routing would be allowed?), then Barrow passengers can still use it and c) by doing this move, it allows a quicker return working from Lancaster or Preston.

Likewise, in the reverse direction, if the train stops at Askam, depending on connections, it could still be useful to Barrow passengers - if allowed for in the routing guide. Obviously, not for all trains, but maybe one or two selected trains per day, it it enabled faster travel to/from Euston or Birmingham.

Barrow, famously, is at the end of the longest peninsula in the world!

I have often wondered how the services could be improved if the infrastructure could support it. I wondered if the Park South to Barrow line could be closed, the station moved nearer to the shops and West Cumbria and Carlisle served by a reinstated curve at Dalton Junction. I don't think the Askam to Barrow journey time would be much if any longer this way particularly if linespeeds could be improved. And it would get rid of the open crossing.

Those travelling from the Cumbrian Coast are mainly alighting at Barrow (those going further South often go via Carlisle) and it is difficult to see that a connection at Dalton would be an advantage. If you were going for a connecting service it would make sense for this to be at Ulverston where the platforms are longer and there is a cross-platform interchange. That would still however be a much degraded service from West Cumbria to Barrow.

There might be a certain attraction to a shuttle between Ulverston and Foxfield (locations with island platforms) but difficult to see how there would be enough patronage to justify it. Particularly since it would need remodelling and resignalling to make it possible.

It would be nice though to see linespeed improvements on a route that still has a 60mph ruling limit and slower in places. Linespeeds are as low as 10mph in the Carnforth area and at the open crossing between Park South and Barrow. It would also be nice to see the wires up from Carnforth to Barrow.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Barrow, famously, is at the end of the longest peninsula in the world!

Penzance surely? Or indeed the south-Western tip of Portugal and Spain? (the Iberian Peninsula)

 

[Philip C]

Barrow, famously, is at the end of the longest peninsula in the world!

Yes, please explain this comment. In sixty-odd years, on this particular planet, I've not come across it before!

 

[Mojo]

Isn't the Arabian Peninsula larger?

 

[kjhskj75]

The world's largest peninsula is Europe, stuck on the western edge of Asia. It's not really a separate continent.

 

[snowball]

If you require a peninsula to be long and thin, Kamchatka is 760 miles long, relatively narrow and slightly larger in total area than the UK. The Antarctic peninsula is of similar size.

 

[Crossover]

It would be nice though to see linespeed improvements on a route that still has a 60mph ruling limit and slower in places. Linespeeds are as low as 10mph in the Carnforth area and at the open crossing between Park South and Barrow. It would also be nice to see the wires up from Carnforth to Barrow.

Yes, it can be quite slow - I was on a railtour the other day up there and the crawl through Carnforth was painfully slow. I did note a couple of 20mph stretches on the coast before it opened up to 60, too