• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

SWTH

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2013
Messages
418
Location
Shrewsbury/Porthmadog/Exeter
Two points in that text:

• We will only ever run a Super Express Train without a Train Manager when the only other alternative would be to cancel it. Even then, we do not propose extending this past areas where current staff agreements permit. An SET would not be operated without a safety competent Guard on board beyond Oxford, Banbury, Didcot Parkway or Bedwyn

Under what circumstances would a train be cancelled? Because the guard needs to take a break due to being late in? Because the diagrammed Guard is ill and they don't want to pay a day's overtime to another guard? Until FGW clarify the circumstances under which a train would run without a guard, the general feeling among staff is that FGW would use this to reduce the staff they need.

• A fully competent, safety-critical Train Manager diagrammed on all SETs (The Driver would control doors, but the Train Manager would be competent to do so in the event of equipment failure)

This suggests the SETs are perfectly capable of being operated in the current manner of driver driving and guard controlling the doors. Therefore, why are FGW so keen to offload the job to the drivers? Could it be to do with eventually extending DOO?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,749
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This suggests the SETs are perfectly capable of being operated in the current manner of driver driving and guard controlling the doors. Therefore, why are FGW so keen to offload the job to the drivers? Could it be to do with eventually extending DOO?

I would *expect* the long-term game to be that a train would carry a driver plus one or more non-safety-critical and possibly multi-skilled customer service staff. In some ways a bit more like an airline, though without the safety critical role that steward/esses have.

How, for instance, do you make a trolley in both units of a 10 car train viable? Potentially by having the replacement "guard" flog the proverbial Kit Kats as they check tickets.
 
Last edited:

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Well FGW are peddling the same line over and over again! No commitment to have spare and cover guards though so clearly this is a cost saving exercise. I agree with others though that in the modern railway performance is top priority ahead of safety.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,749
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Well FGW are peddling the same line over and over again! No commitment to have spare and cover guards though so clearly this is a cost saving exercise. I agree with others though that in the modern railway performance is top priority ahead of safety.

To some extent it will be. If you want absolute safety, you stop running anything (then people are in cars, and that's less safe than even railway operations of 50 years ago). So there always needs to be a balance, and cost-benefit will come into it.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,926
Maybe an odd idea but to develop proposals further - if you had to give the driver door controls why not put the DKS throughout the train, then when the guard is happy for the train to leave and isn't going to be left behind, they can arm the drivers close door controls ?
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Even though performance seems to take priority over safety in the industry, I believe this is the wrong approach and safety should always take priority over performance.

I don't agree with FGW running their HSS services as far as current DOO limits in Driver Only mode if a Train Manager is unavailable because these trains carry far more people and travel far more faster then Thames Valley services not to mention that if FGW recruited enough staff then this would not be the issue that FGW are trying to make out it is.

As to their belief that 90% of passengers want a trolley service and having a buffet AND a kitchen would result in far less seats is a outright lie, what happens when passengers board a HSS service and a onboard announcement says sorry no trolley service? If you're travelling on these services, it's nice to be able to buy something onboard. At the moment, East Coast have both kitchen and buffet and where a standard class trolley is not available they advise passengers of the buffet as a alternative so I can't understand why FGW and the DfT have to be so militant about it.

The other point FGW ought to do is ensure ALL Thames Valley services have a second member of staff onboard be a guard or a rpi as these services are currently DOO and having staff presence on board even if just customer service and revenue protection is better in my view then having little to no staff presence indeed if they changed their revenue protection policy and took input from staff how to implement it, I can see revenue improving on the GWML.

As to RMT members not supporting their RMT colleagues, I find this lack of faith disturbing and disappointing yes they might not be directly involved in the reasons but when a incident happens, they be the first to have been told we told you so.

Far as I'm concerned, my fellow RMT colleagues have every right to raise issues about these proposals and yes I back them 100% even though I'm a different grade and work for a different TOC.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,749
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Maybe an odd idea but to develop proposals further - if you had to give the driver door controls why not put the DKS throughout the train, then when the guard is happy for the train to leave and isn't going to be left behind, they can arm the drivers close door controls ?

The Voyager already has a solution for this, which is to have signal buzzers and local door control throughout the train, with 1-2 used to signal to the driver to close doors. Another bell code could be used, if one doesn't already exist, to signal "close doors if safe".
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Beliggerents is not a derogatory term but has a technical meaning that is relevant in this case. It means the aggressor in a dispute.

Smallminded is a derogatory term.

Well, in that case I stand corrected...Not having regularly been involved in such matters I'm familiar only with the commonly used derogatory purpose for said term. Perhaps 'strikers' might be an equally accurate but less provocative term to describe those who are, umm, striking. I shall alter my previous comment accordingly.

That's an interesting trail of words though; you use 'aggressor'. Who is being aggressive? Workers who wish merely to continue in their current roles, the roles they applied for and were engaged to carry out. Or the employer intent on changing those roles?!
 
Last edited:

SkinnyDave

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2012
Messages
1,242
Acceleration and power doors. A Voyager has doors which are closed only when the Guard authorises it. So there you are, a fine example of how we can still improve matters AND retain a proper Guard on board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This conveniently doesn't mention the significantly reduced responsibilities of the proposed 'Safety Competent Guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many of those extra staff were in roles largely unaffected, such as ticket office and gateline. Their lack of solidarity has of course been noted, but it has done nothing to dent the resolve of the majority who are standing strong - there are very few Guards working trains. Rather sad you feel unable to summon any empathy for those who are merely fighting to defend their jobs. Pleasingly however, there has so far been rather widespread support from the public. Take the press relelase figures with a pinch of salt; they're part of a battle plan after all.

I would not let his obvious Union bashing that we are well used to stand in the way of facts!
Little but different on the ground yesterday and today from what has been officially reported!
 

FordFocus

Member
Joined
15 Apr 2015
Messages
918
No. It's one factor.

Then what are the other factors, as I see removing key dispatch staff from the process of an area which is getting increased injuries and accidents each year as been very backwards. This is a key issue here.

Then you're just being disingenuous.

A touch of sarcasm in my previous post, clearly it was a bit lost on yourself. Still I think I've set my cards out on my experience of train dispatch so perhaps I may have a slight idea about what I'm talking about and the first hand risks that come with it.


If it were regularly I would agree. But it doesn't have to be regularly to have an impact. One in a thousand trains is still 0.1% on PPM. As with most things there's a balance between cost and coverage. For instance TfL wanted very low cancellations on London Overground. The solution has been the introduction of cover turns for drivers. That costs millions a year; just to stop one reason for cancellations, and not the biggest either (infrastructure and train failures are much bigger causes).

I suspect a big draw for TOCs is the capability of creating diagrams with the maximum amount of time spent on trains with minimum turnaround times at stations such as Paddington, Bristol, Exeter. The more time traincrew are working trains and less time spent in stations and mess rooms sat means less drivers/guards required. The massive negative on this is because the timings are too tight and no slack means that drivers or guards may have to take a break so their next working goes out late.


Ah, the ASLEF Charter. Non-drivers might be interested in taking a look. How many millions would that shopping list cost I wonder? What would it add to the price of a ticket?

God bless a strong union. Clearly hits a nerve with a few people on here. For the record, a lot of the items in that charter have been achieved for years. The 55 pension retirement age won't happen IMHO though but let's not detract the main issue here.


£150? You'd be lucky. Shows how insulated drivers are from the real world, if the ASLEF charter hadn't done that already. I think if you were paying £500 a month the biggest single thing you'd be worried about would be the price of your ticket.

I wouldn't say insulated, when it goes wrong I regularly hear the 'do you know how much I pay a month for this [expletive] service???'. £150 was what I used to pay as I didn't have to travel far.

Still my point still stands, if my fare goes up each year above inflation then I would expect some form of improvement. For a lot of places in the country, particularly the North, Wales and South West there is very little, if any improvement. Removing safety critical staff is not improvement, it's anything but.


I agree that a second person on the train in times of disruption is invaluable. Does he have to be a guard?

I think you know my answer to that one ;)


Predicting the inevitable
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you come up with an idea to make the railways profitable?. If not then DFT have good reason to try and seek longer term efficiencies and more flexible working arrangements than perhaps currently exist. If you want our railways to have a bright and long lasting future then surely that makes more sense than merely assuming governments will be willing to subsidize everything in its current form/costs indefinitely

I can think of ways of saving money without cutting front line, safety critical staff that actually deal with the public. Start having a look at a few middle managers at TOCs, what their roles are and what they actually do productivity wise.

Network Rail seem to have a great knack at wasting money but that's for a different thread.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
You might want to Google aggressor too ;)

Though I would agree with you that FGW "started it", to put it in short words

I'm happy to accept that strikers may be techically classed as aggressors for the purposes of the Oxford English Dictionary, however I'd suggest we are firmly on the defensive, not the offensive!

My English GCSEs were a long time ago :D
 

Doctor Fegg

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2010
Messages
2,135
Location
Charlbury
I don't agree with FGW running their HSS services as far as current DOO limits in Driver Only mode if a Train Manager is unavailable because these trains carry far more people

That's not necessarily true, is it? A coupled-up 165/166 will have more seats than a 5-car SET.
 

plymothian

Member
Joined
26 Sep 2010
Messages
757
Location
Plymouth
It seems people are enjoying this strike because:

- Fewer people are travelling so it's less crowded than usual
- Fewer trains means fewer delays
- Free refreshments are being provided so they don't have to pay anything
- Barriers are not in operation, so no queues; coupled with...
- The manager "guards" aren't doing ticket checks (free ride!)
- The manager "guards" are enjoying their time out of the office, so having a gay old time
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,609
It seems people are enjoying this strike because:

- Fewer people are travelling so it's less crowded than usual
- Fewer trains means fewer delays
- Free refreshments are being provided so they don't have to pay anything
- Barriers are not in operation, so no queues; coupled with...
- The manager "guards" aren't doing ticket checks (free ride!)
- The manager "guards" are enjoying their time out of the office, so having a gay old time

Hmmm that didn't seem to apply on the commuter services between Bath and Bristol this morning! Four stopping commuter services instead of the normal eight between 6.30am and 9am, two of which were delayed and the one I was on which was rammed full with barely any room to board let alone get free refreshments (which I doubt were being given out anyway).
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
This conveniently doesn't mention the significantly reduced responsibilities of the proposed 'Safety Competent Guard.

So you're now saying that the dispute is solely around the reduced responsibilities? As you're guaranteed a job this franchise, then it must be that you're striking against the next. Better hope that FGW don't get better lawyers...
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
So you're now saying that the dispute is solely around the reduced responsibilities? As you're guaranteed a job this franchise, then it must be that you're striking against the next. Better hope that FGW don't get better lawyers...

That's selectively quoting, and you know it. There are a lot of issues to this dispute, and a lot of staff grades involved - depot, platform, catering, revenue and guards.

FGW and the DfT are using the introduction of the IEP's to push through a lot of changes, some of which they have unsuccesfully been trying to introduce for years, without any consultation with staff, unions, stakeholders and passengers - the company has given two fingers to all the established staff consultation processes, and aproached the whole process in a very agressive and dismissive manner, designed to get staff's back up.

Despite the dressing-up, they are going to decrease passenger and staff safety, security, comfort and level of service. They are going to decrease job security across all grades (including drivers, as they will increase the risk to drivers of having an error that could result in their dismissal). They are going to seriously threaten the succesful introduction of the new rolling stock, which are costing the country a lot of money. All for the supposed reasoning that the new (untested) trains will require an (unproven) lower level of staff and have an (undetermined) decrease in station dwell time, customers will never misbehave, get ill, or require assistance, and that no Acts of God (or man) will ever occur to the trains or track affecting the train.

The fact that the company is not saying their proposed methods ofworking are safer is the telling point about the whole thing. We keep getting told (it is the heading on all internal documents - or at least used to be) "If it's not safe don't do it". 92% of staff polled have decided it is not safe.
 
Last edited:

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
So you're now saying that the dispute is solely around the reduced responsibilities? As you're guaranteed a job this franchise, then it must be that you're striking against the next. Better hope that FGW don't get better lawyers...

Oh dear, we're spouting utter drivel now...
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
So what about the 12 car DOO services that operate routinely on Thameslink,Greater Anglia etc?

What about the regular mass passenger detrainings that occur during disruption on these trains, or that a lot of people consider them virtual no-go areas after dark on certain lines?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,126
Location
Redcar
What about the regular mass passenger detrainings that occur during disruption on these trains, or that a lot of people consider them virtual no-go areas after dark on certain lines?

To be fair there have also been detrainings from SWT services and they have guards.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
To be fair there have also been detrainings from SWT services and they have guards.
But an awful lot more from DOO services, always with the excuse/reason from those involved "Nobody was telling us anything"...

Check back on the numerous threads on here on the subject.
 

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,029
I can think of ways of saving money without cutting front line, safety critical staff that actually deal with the public. Start having a look at a few middle managers at TOCs, what their roles are and what they actually do productivity wise.
All industries benefit from a management structure that is as flat as possible. Something British industry is very poor at! I'm amazed that so many trains have been operated - what on earth do all these people do normally?
Seems to me that this is where the money saving should be.
But of course the unions are their own worst enemies on the railway - why should operators reduce the middle management if they can help when there is a strike? It gives them negotiating power. Time for a no strike agreement I think. And that would also be something that FGW could offer when they submit their next franchise bid.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,515
What about the regular mass passenger detrainings that occur during disruption on these trains, or that a lot of people consider them virtual no-go areas after dark on certain lines?

Unfortunately detrainings have always occurred, i particularly remember being on the old vep units around 2004 about 10 guys knew exactly where to pull the chord a few miles before Gatwick and all pilled out across several electrified tracks
 
Last edited:

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
What about the regular mass passenger detrainings that occur during disruption on these trains, or that a lot of people consider them virtual no-go areas after dark on certain lines?

No regular de-trainings on Greater Anglia. At least in the DOO area.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's selectively quoting, and you know it.

Yes, I was having a joke. But it's a joke with a kernel of truth.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Despite the dressing-up, they are going to decrease passenger and staff safety, security, comfort and level of service.

Arguably they are decreasing safety. I cannot see how they are decreasing security as there will be more staff. Any change in comfort and level of service is around the train specification (i.e. lack of buffet), which is not what the strike is about.
 
Last edited:

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
No regular de-trainings on Greater Anglia. At least in the DOO area.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, I was having a joke. But it's a joke with a kernel of truth.

Not really. Let me clarify it for you. FGW are intent on implimenting plans now which will pave the way to more serious issues when the next Great Western franchise begins, in a few years' time. There is a widespread belief, and quite a valid one, that First feel if they can report back to the DfT that they have managed to get McNulty through, they will be looked upon rather favourably come franchise award time. None of the promises made about job security give any assurances whatsoever about the next franchise. The issue, quite simply, is that if First carry out their plans now, the door is very firmly open for the next franchisee, whoever that may be, to cause real problems with the current Guard role and all of those in that job. If those proposals are stopped now, that door is not open. Staff are carrying out industrial action to halt what is very likely to be the beginning of the end of their jobs. Those outside observers who seem genuinely unable to fathom what the problem is, would do well to realise that there is a bigger picture here. The RMT can see it, and the workers can see it. Four years is not long. Protecting jobs now will protect jobs in the long term. It really is quite simple.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top