Tech's planning a massive Euro bash and needs help!

[Gordon]

You should be ok with most cities, but I found Prague is quite awkward to get to, unless you're coming from the east of Czech Republic. Good luck on the planning though.

By far the best way to pull in Prague into a 'multi European capital' itinerary is to do Berlin first. From Berlin you are on the north - south axis Hamburg - Berlin - Praha - Wien / Bratislava - Budapest. All five of these cities are capitals, and Hamburg - Buapest or Hamburg - Wien can be done in one day.

This route is well worth doing for the railway variety, and it is scenic especially between Dresden and Praha. It is also a throw back to the 'old fashioned' European railway with loco hauled expresses replicating what I grew up with in western Europe.



.

 

[Searle]

The supplement for the BWE, to an InterRail pass, is 4.50 Euro.

If you want to do Berlin-Warsaw overnight, take a local DB train to Szczecin, and catch the Szczecin-Warsaw sleeper from there.

It certainly wasn't when we did it last year. When I can track down the reservation, I'll give you our exact price.

 

[Polrail]

Here's the BWE tariff, in Polish I'm afraid:

Warunki Taryfowe i Zasady Sprzedaży Dokumentów Przewozu na pociągi relacji Warszawa/Gdynia-Berlin


Page 19, the "Bordpass", is what you need if you have an InterRail pass. PKP sells it for 4 Euro, the Germans charge 4.50.

Side note: the "BWE" name has been dropped. These are just numbered trains now.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just to make it more enticing - Berlin / Poznan / Warsaw is a very fine Polish LHCS with an outstanding food service. (and masses of class 84 look alike loco's in Poland plus some interesting Communist era EMU's). You get to cross the Oder at Frankfurt - an area redolent of WW2 history.

Masses of long and mixed freights around to. Time for another trip.

 

[Techniquest]

You should be ok with most cities, but I found Prague is quite awkward to get to, unless you're coming from the east of Czech Republic. Good luck on the planning though.

By far the best way to pull in Prague into a 'multi European capital' itinerary is to do Berlin first. From Berlin you are on the north - south axis Hamburg - Berlin - Praha - Wien / Bratislava - Budapest. All five of these cities are capitals, and Hamburg - Buapest or Hamburg - Wien can be done in one day.

This route is well worth doing for the railway variety, and it is scenic especially between Dresden and Praha. It is also a throw back to the 'old fashioned' European railway with loco hauled expresses replicating what I grew up with in western Europe.
.

Would you be able to give me a rough itinerary for Berlin to Wien/Budapest in a day at all? After all if it's an 0600 start and 2300 arrival, while that's fine with me I doubt my norm mate would be too happy!

Hamburg to Budapest in one day is pretty impressive mind, quite the distance!

I've yet to sample a 'proper' European loco-hauled train, although I have seen a few. It would be nice to see what the fuss is about!
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Just to make it more enticing - Berlin / Poznan / Warsaw is a very fine Polish LHCS with an outstanding food service. (and masses of class 84 look alike loco's in Poland plus some interesting Communist era EMU's). You get to cross the Oder at Frankfurt - an area redolent of WW2 history.

Masses of long and mixed freights around to. Time for another trip.

Sounds like it could be worth a trip on its own to Warsaw!

I need to research some of these trains on YouTube and Flickr (when Flickr decides it likes me enough to actually load anything!), although if anyone has any video or photo collections they know of/own that are worth a look, please do feel free to share them.

I grew up on the MU railway, so for me units everywhere is not a problem. I wouldn't have enjoyed my trip to the Netherlands after all otherwise!

I'm off to work (overtime today, plenty more to come in the coming months!) in a moment, taking my Schweers and Wall atlas with me today to have a good look at various routes. I've also got my old timetable to use for ideas on times etc, the new one is on the way and looking forward to making more accurate plans.

All this work going in and we're nowhere near the time of the trip! I've got my trip to Ireland with another norm booked (just hotel to pay for on arrival and spending money to find now), so at least things are getting organised!

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Just read through the thread - interesting read.

As it appears both Vienna and Bern will be on your itinerary - have you considered scratching Vaduz (Liechtenstein) enroute between the two? Might be the "Cap Attack" equivalent of Hawarden Bridge, but still worth scoring...

 

[30907]

Would you be able to give me a rough itinerary for Berlin to Wien/Budapest in a day at all? After all if it's an 0600 start and 2300 arrival, while that's fine with me I doubt my norm mate would be too happy!

The times are pretty much as in your old timetable, every 2 hours, except that all services now go towards Budapest. Prague to Vienna runs on the alternate hour using new CD and OeBB Railjet sets, same goes for Budapest Vienna. Bratislava to Vienna is a fairly frequent local service and not very far either.

It depends how long you want in each city.

 

[gordonthemoron]

For Prague, I've stayed in Tyn Hostel which is just off the Old Town square and not far from Central Station

 

[Techniquest]

Just read through the thread - interesting read.

As it appears both Vienna and Bern will be on your itinerary - have you considered scratching Vaduz (Liechtenstein) enroute between the two? Might be the "Cap Attack" equivalent of Hawarden Bridge, but still worth scoring...

Ooh I had not seen that, must investigate that as an option!

I was working on Plan B this morning, and it was going well. All based around a flight from Birmingham to Oslo, then onwards from there. Only thing is, it doesn't appear on Flybe's website any more, so that plan was scrapped part-way through.

I was going to continue heavy planning tonight, following a discussion of the cities we'd like to do. Said list has boiled down to 4 key cities:

Copenhagen
Vienna
Prague
Berlin

However I instead enjoyed a lovely evening with one of my best mates instead, losing my Nandos virginity at long last! I did however start planning again on the commute home, and I'm starting to wonder if an InterRail will actually be cost effective. Plan B currently looks like the following, with numbers in round brackets being simply a track of the capitals visited:

Plan B

Day 1

Hereford to London Paddington (1)
Tube Paddington to Liverpool Street
1932 London Liverpool Street to Harwich International,arrive 2054
2315 Harwich International to Hoek van Holland Haven,arrive 0745 (Stena Line - cabin mandatory)

Day 2

0826 Hoek van Holland Haven to Schiedam Centrum,arrive 0851
0857 Schiedam Centrum to Amsterdam Centraal,arrive 1002 (2)
Explore Amsterdam,then:
1901 Amsterdam Centraal to Kobenhavn H,arrive 1007 (3) (EuroNight sleeper)

Day 3

Explore Kobenhavn,then:
1846 Kobenhavn H to Berlin Hbf,arrive 0426 (EuroNight sleeper (4)

Day 4

Explore Berlin,then:
1446 Berlin Hbf to Praha hlavni,arrive 1926 (5)
Hotel

Day 5

Explore Praha,then:
0001 Praha hlavni to Wien Westbahnhof,arrive 0617 (EuroNight sleeper) (6)

Planning the rest of Plan B on the work-bound commute tomorrow. I'm downloading the InterRail app tonight too, so will be using that heavily. The above is not finished as I was at the end of the commute home by that point.
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Would you be able to give me a rough itinerary for Berlin to Wien/Budapest in a day at all? After all if it's an 0600 start and 2300 arrival, while that's fine with me I doubt my norm mate would be too happy!

The times are pretty much as in your old timetable, every 2 hours, except that all services now go towards Budapest. Prague to Vienna runs on the alternate hour using new CD and OeBB Railjet sets, same goes for Budapest Vienna. Bratislava to Vienna is a fairly frequent local service and not very far either.

It depends how long you want in each city.

Those RailJet trains could be interesting, certainly worth a look at.

Really not sure how long we're going to spend in each city, depends what's there in each one really. I'm currently planning an absolute minimum of 5 hours in each of the key places we're keen on seeing, which of course could easily change when each of the key 4 cities are thoroughly researched.

Berlin is key for me as there's just so much to do rail-wise. A quick spin on the U-bahn would certainly be nice, to get an idea of what's going on on that system.
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For Prague, I've stayed in Tyn Hostel which is just off the Old Town square and not far from Central Station

Thanks for the tip, I'll properly look into that one later

Hostels aren't entirely my cup of tea these days, but if it's any good upon research I'll add it to the list to be considered.

The email I sent to my mate with Plan A, and all the other details, apparently covered 3 pages. I haven't introduced him to this thread yet

Actually, that looks a nice hostel to be fair! I see there's Metro and tram routes around Prague too, and the photos on the website for that hostel has me rather keen on getting it visited for sure!

 

[Gordon]

have you considered scratching Vaduz (Liechtenstein) enroute between the two?

Vaduz is not on the railway. The nearest station is at Schaan-Vaduz, 3.5km from Vaduz. GWR would have called it Vaduz Road...



.

 

[Techniquest]

have you considered scratching Vaduz (Liechtenstein) enroute between the two?

Vaduz is not on the railway. The nearest station is at Schaan-Vaduz, 3.5km from Vaduz. GWR would have called it Vaduz Road...
.

No wonder it didn't come up in a search on RailPlanner! It must be a fairly small place based on a quick look on Google Maps too.

Quite liking the RailPlanner app so far, even though it tells me there's no sleeper trains from Kobenhavn to Berlin now, therefore requiring yet another re-write of the plan!

 

[MisterT]

Please be aware that the Euronight sleeper from Amsterdam to København doesn't exist anymore. The only sleeper service from Amsterdam is CityNightLine to München and Zürich.

 

[30907]

If you are into trams, Prague is a must.

It is reported that a Parkeston to Esbjerg ferry will resume next spring.

http://www.seat61.com/Denmark.htm#Denmark-by-ferry

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For my trips I bought a copy (PDF download, £7.95) of the European Rail Atlas by Mike Ball (who did a series of paper country atlases).
Useful to have on your laptop/phone.
http://www.europeanrailwayatlas.com/

I know you have hard choices but Prague-Vienna by night seems a waste.
You get quite a "GB" feeling with all the green rolling hills in Bohemia/Moravia.
It might all be over by next year but there is large-scale upgrade work going on east of Prague (single line working etc).
Some of this is not far from the Velim test track, which you can see disappearing into the distance off the main line near Kolin but otherwise invisible.

 

[Techniquest]

Please be aware that the Euronight sleeper from Amsterdam to København doesn't exist anymore. The only sleeper service from Amsterdam is CityNightLine to München and Zürich.

That makes things more awkward, but Amsterdam to Munchen (sorry I don't have the pronounciation things on here!) could be useful. Hmm,some good ideas coming together, Plan E could be the one that works out.

Plan D is working out beautifully it seems, until we get to Warsaw which is number 9. It takes ages to get to Berlin, then onwards to Copenhagen for number 10. Then there's some awful connections in Berlin from one station to another, hardly any time to make it either. The loss of the sleeper from Warsaw to Hamburg or Copenhagen has made that bit not work.

Hmm, more planning on the commute to work tomorrow! Researching cities, possible hotels and the route home tonight...
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If you are into trams, Prague is a must.

It is reported that a Parkeston to Esbjerg ferry will resume next spring.

http://www.seat61.com/Denmark.htm#Denmark-by-ferry

I am and I'm not into trams, certainly will have a look into that though.

That ferry over could be expensive, but equally very much worth a look at as a plane avoidance move.

I really need to get on and have a proper look at seat61.com soon!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For my trips I bought a copy (PDF download, £7.95) of the European Rail Atlas by Mike Ball (who did a series of paper country atlases).
Useful to have on your laptop/phone.
http://www.europeanrailwayatlas.com/

I know you have hard choices but Prague-Vienna by night seems a waste.
You get quite a "GB" feeling with all the green rolling hills in Bohemia/Moravia.
It might all be over by next year but there is large-scale upgrade work going on east of Prague (single line working etc).
Some of this is not far from the Velim test track, which you can see disappearing into the distance off the main line near Kolin but otherwise invisible.

So worth looking at doing by a day train then for sure for Prague to Vienna?

Certainly will research that atlas, useful to have indeed a map on the phone!

 

[30907]

Puzzled by ref to changing stations in Berlin as virtually everything long distance uses Hauptbahnhof.

Agree about Prague to Vienna, and it's too short for a sensible sleeper trip. Vienna/Budapest/Bratislava to Warsaw by night might make more sense.

 

[Gordon]

No wonder it didn't come up in a search on RailPlanner! It must be a fairly small place based on a quick look on Google Maps too.

Vaduz has a population of 5,000, the same as Hartford, Cheshire on the WCML.

Leichstenstein is very small, it has a population less than half the size of Crewe.



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[radamfi]

If you are going to be going from Zurich to Vienna on Railjet then you could break your journey at Sargans and take the short bus journey to and from Vaduz. The buses look comfortable from when I've seen them at the station, although I haven't made the bus journey.

 

[Techniquest]

Puzzled by ref to changing stations in Berlin as virtually everything long distance uses Hauptbahnhof.

Agree about Prague to Vienna, and it's too short for a sensible sleeper trip. Vienna/Budapest/Bratislava to Warsaw by night might make more sense.

It's certainly what RailPlanner was telling me yesterday morning, arrive into Hbf then a 9 minute walk to another Berlin station, Tief or something like that. I didn't note them down so not sure now.

Warsaw I'm taking off the plan as my mate doesn't seem too keen on the idea of doing that one. I think it's mostly the long journey to Berlin that mostly put him off, bjt his face didn't look happy when I mentioned Poland somehow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No wonder it didn't come up in a search on RailPlanner! It must be a fairly small place based on a quick look on Google Maps too.

Vaduz has a population of 5,000, the same as Hartford, Cheshire on the WCML.

Leichstenstein is very small, it has a population less than half the size of Crewe.

That'll be why Lichtenstein is hardly noticeable in my atlas then, it must be a very small place indeed!
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If you are going to be going from Zurich to Vienna on Railjet then you could break your journey at Sargans and take the short bus journey to and from Vaduz. The buses look comfortable from when I've seen them at the station, although I haven't made the bus journey.

Certainly it is an interesting idea. One that I'll look up properly later, as I know no-one who's done Lichtenstein so I can boast then

Plan E was finally finished yesterday evening, and is the only one so far to go in an anti-clockwise circle and is completely planned from start to finish. For those curious:

Plan E

Day 1

Hereford to London (1)
1932 London Liverpool Street to Harwich International
2315 Harwich to Hook of Holland
Trains to Amsterdam (2)
(Advance to London + RailSail)

Day 2

Explore Amsterdam
2031 Amsterdam to Basel,arr 0647 (CityNightLine sleeper)

Day 3
0659 Basel to Bern,arr 0756 (3)
1132 Bern to Zurich,arrive 1228
1240 Zurich to Vienna,arrive 2030 (4)
Hotel
(InterRail Day 1)

Day 4

0900 Vienna to Bratislava,arrive 0959 (5)
1353 Bratislava to Budapest,arr 1638 (6)
2005 Budapest to Prague,arrive 0410 (EuroNight sleeper) (7)
(IR day 2)

Day 5

Explore Prague,hotel
(IR Day 3)

Day 5
1030 Prague to Berlin,arr 1515 (8)
Explore and hotel
(InterRail Day 4)

Day 6
1329 Berlin to Hamburg,arrive 1511
1528 Hamburg to Nykobing,arrive 1832
1841 Nykobing to Copenhagen,arr 2032 (9)
Hotel
(InterRail Day 5)

Day 7
Explore Copenhagen
2223 Copenhagen to Hamburg,arrive 0533
0612 Hamburg to Dusseldorf,arr 0941
1022 Dusseldorf to Aachen,arrive 1145
1204 Aachen to Welkenraedt,arrive 1218
1226 Welkenraedt to Brussels Midi,arr 1403 (10)
1456 Brussels Midi to London St Pancras,arrive 1605
1722 London Paddington to Hereford,arrive 2031
(InterRail Day 6,Eurostar non-refundable Advance and London to Hereford ticket)

There's not a lot of time in some of the cities, admittedly, so that'll probably need tweaking yet. I also got on with making a rough budget, including estimating spending money, and the above all in would easily set us back £895 on current fares, approximate hotel rates, supplements and £40 a day spending money. It will probably be nearer £1,000 all in I reckon.

 

[33056]

It's certainly what RailPlanner was telling me yesterday morning, arrive into Hbf then a 9 minute walk to another Berlin station, Tief or something like that. I didn't note them down so not sure now.

Berlin Hbf has an "upstairs" (east / west) and a "downstairs" (north / south) which is the "tief" station. It is all one station but you will need to allow a few minutes to change trains between the two levels.

 

[Zamracene749]

Bit puzzled by day 4- doubling back from Bratislava to Budapest? Would have done it Wien to Budapest direct railjet, had a day sampling BKV trams, trolleys and metros or do the childrens railway- then the sleeper to Prague. You could always hop onto the platform at Bratislava on the way, just to say you'd been there

 

[Gordon]

Berlin Hbf has an "upstairs" (east / west) and a "downstairs" (north / south) which is the "tief" station. It is all one station but you will need to allow a few minutes to change trains between the two levels.

Indeed. Tief is the German for low aka lower aka basement

There are three levels at Berlin Hbf, two with railways as stated. The middle level is the entrance / exit / passenger circulating / retail level. It is one of the most awe inspiring sights on today's Europen rail network, standing at the middle level and glimpsing trains going across way above you and deep below you running at 90 degrees to each other.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...800px-Interior_of_the_Berlin_Hauptbahnhof.jpg

A visit to Berlin Hbf is a must for any railway enthusiast. If you have visited any rebuilt UK stations they are absolutely nothing compared to Berlin Hbf.

I knew Berlin in the communist era with dingy stations and 'temporary'/artificial arrangements to cater for the divided city and my first visit to the new Hbf completely threw me!




.

 

[Techniquest]

Aha, now that makes sense! Certainly will factor in a proper look around at Berlin Hbf, sounds like a massive place!

Fair point on the Bratislava and Budapest thing, certainly worth bearing in mind for Plan F!

Talking of, I was originally going to work on that during today's homeward commute, as we've agreed Plan E isn't ideal in a few places. However, I'm far too burnt out, certainly with everything else going on lately planning this trip has had to be sidelined. There are just too many things that need to be prioritised now!

 

[30907]

The Budapest sleeper carries a Prague portion which is detached at Pardubice and arrives at a more civilised hour. Bit inefficient not to use the ticket on day 4, but Prague is worth it.

The Hamburg to Nykobing train continues to Copenhagen anyway.

The overnight back to Hamburg is an IC3 DMU, and runs on restricted dates this year.

The Aachen to Welkenraedt train is just about the oldest EMU in western Europe (except IoW), and a non enthusiast might prefer to wait for the ICE 20 min later.

 

[Techniquest]

See, that RailPlanner app refused to accept that train to Nykobing continued to Copenhagen. I knew it surely would, but it wouldn't have it! It insisted on doing Aachen to Brussels via a change at Welkenraedt, as well as the other changes too. I thought the AM08s would be in full squadron service by now, the AM72s (and their various sister classes) were due to be replaced by them by now!

You're right that I doubt my mate would probably not enjoy one of those, and having the hunch it could be an AM72 had me raising an eyebrow, at myself of course, when putting it into the plan. I'd enjoy the run no doubt, but hey ho!

Plan F was created this morning, and has received the green light from my non-enthusiast mate. A miracle we made it all work, it was hoped to do it originally within 6 days but then he wanted to explore places too, so it's had to be extended. As always, numbers in round brackets are a capital city count. The following is entirely planned with the new European Rail Timetable, well except for the moves to London on Day 1, I should know them well enough by now

Plan F:

Day 1

1140 Hereford to Birmingham New Street
1333 Birmingham New Street to London Euston (1)
Tube Euston to Liverpool Street
1932 London Liverpool Street to Harwich International
2315 Harwich to Hook of Holland

Day 2

Trains to Amsterdam, I believe arriving at 1002 (2)
Explore Amsterdam, hotel night

Day 3

0901 Amsterdam Centraal to Osnabruck, arrive 1206
1221 Osnabruck to Hamburg, arrive 1412
1528 Hamburg to Copenhagen (via Rodby train ferry!), arrive 2011 (3)
Hotel night

Day 4

Explore Copenhagen, then:
1552 Copenhagen to Malmo, arrive 1626
1700 Malmo to Berlin, arrive 0630 (EuroNight sleeper, via Trelleborg train ferry!) (4)

Day 5

Explore Berlin, hotel night

Day 6

0846 Berlin to Prague, arrive 1325 (5)
Explore Prague, hotel night

Day 7

1142 Prague to Bratislava, arrive 1553 (6)
1753 Bratislava to Budapest, arrive 2035 (7)
Hotel night

Day 8
1110 Budapest to Vienna, arrive 1348 (8)
Explore Vienna, hotel night

Day 9

0930 Vienna to Zurich, arrive 1720
1732 Zurich to Bern, arrive 1828 (9)
Hotel night

Day 10

1034 Bern to Basel SBB, arrive 1129
1316 Basel SNCF to Brussels Midi, arrive 2027 (10)
Hotel night

Day 11

1456 Brussels Midi to London St Pancras, arrive 1603
Tube Kings Cross St Pancras to Paddington
1722 London Paddington to Hereford, arrive 2031

I might look to get the 1256 from Brussels on the way home, that'll depend on fares and all that. Quite, it may be that we fly home instead yet, but at least there's a plan we've both got agreements on and it doesn't involve any planes. I should imagine Vienna to Zurich should be quite the scenic route, hence ensuring it's done in the daytime.

Any comments at all?

 

[Searle]

I wasn't aware that the Malmo - Berlin night train was still running, but if it is then you'll absolutely love it :P

 

[306024]

I wasn't aware that the Malmo - Berlin night train was still running, but if it is then you'll absolutely love it :P

It seems to be run by a Swedish company called Snalltaget (2 dots above first a, circle above second a). According to their website it runs from Malmo on Monday, Thursday and Saturday from 22 June to 9 August. Returns from Berlin on Wednesday, Friday and Sunday.

The itinerary looks interesting, just hope you're not too knackered to enjoy it by the end. 3 ships in the first 4 days is a particularly good effort but beware of the dates/days of the Malmo - Berlin train. Obviously you'll only scratch the surface of the places you are visiting which is a shame, but European rail travel is a wonderful experience.

 

[Techniquest]

Aye I started researching fares last night (well, and very early this morning!) to see if a Global InterRail pass is what is best. Seat61 suggests a single from Basel to Brussels will weigh in at 115 Euro alone, so let's call that 90 quid. When an InterRail pass is 205 quid for 5 in 10 days, that's basically 115 quid to cover the rest of the European stuff. Therefore it will be certainly cheaper to get the InterRail, although depending on whether the main lot around Europe can be covered in those days or not is another thing. Maybe an InterRail plus pre-book bits like Berlin to Prague to make it all work.

I saw it's a very limited period of operation for the Malmo to Berlin sleeper, which will restrict us significantly as to when we can do the trip. If it can't be done when that's running then we'll change the plan again.

With plenty of hotel nights it shouldn't be too tiring hopefully!

 

[telstarbox]

Prague is a great city for exploring.

 

[30907]

Looks good and workable.

You will have to be patient about the Malmö-Berlin - it has been threatened almost every year for the last 10.

In terms of cost, almost all of those journeys can be done on Advance tickets of some sort, and I would be surprised if any cost more than EUR39, except Basel to Brussels (via Luxembourg BTW).

You could consider taking advantage of your Dutchflyer ticket (which I gather is now a NS day ticket): instead of overnighting in expensive Amsterdam, spend the day there and go on to nearer the German border before using day 1 of your IR.
And if you aren't using IR for the next day, a Eurospecial Denmark will cover you from Bad Bentheim or Leer to Copenhagen.