Keighley to Ashford

[Tim R-T-C]

Hello all,

I am travelling down with work for business near Ashford. Looking at advance tickets about £50 or so with include Javelin from St.P

The advance says VTEC and connections, does this mean I am able to use any HS1 service to Ashford. Can I also travel to Victoria and use the old route (more spotting potential!).

Thanks

 

[yorksrob]

If it allows high speed, then it allows the classic route as well. I'm quite fond of the stopper from Vicky myself. Slow but a bit more character.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Thanks.

Do you know if buying an Advance from Keighley to Ashford would mean you can only travel on a particular HS1 service, or would this section be open?

I usually only travel Keighley to London on advances, so not too sure how they work on multiple services. The websites seem to imply all the trains are fixed, but I know this isn't always the case.

 

[thebigcheese]

A few weeks ago I booked an advance from Gravesend to Birmingham and I was booked on a specific train on HS1 into London

 

[yorkie]

The conditions allow you to take "appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary".

If you wish to travel via Victoria, it's advisable to obtain an itinerary via Victoria by specifying via: VIC when booking.

 

[yorksrob]

The conditions allow you to take "appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary".

If you wish to travel via Victoria, it's advisable to obtain an itinerary via Victoria by specifying via: VIC when booking.

Wouldn't such a ticket have the maltese cross sign on it, in which case the classic routes from Victoria, Charing X and Cannon Street would be pretty much expressly permitted (otherwise why have it there?).

Genuine question as I don't think I've bought a through ticket since this high speed malarkey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few weeks ago I booked an advance from Gravesend to Birmingham and I was booked on a specific train on HS1 into London

That's an abysmal degradation of passenger freedom in that case. These tu'penny, ha'penny train companies need to be brought to heel.

 

[yorkie]

Wouldn't such a ticket have the maltese cross sign on it, in which case the classic routes from Victoria, Charing X and Cannon Street would be pretty much expressly permitted (otherwise why have it there?).

Of course the maltese cross symbol will be present, and of course it's valid to go via Victoria.

However if you wish to travel via Victoria, it's advisable to obtain an itinerary via Victoria by specifying via: VIC when booking.

If you want me to go into more detail as to why it's advisable, I can do so, but I don't want to be arguing against reasonableness, so I'd rather not.

 

[extendedpaul]

Thanks.

Do you know if buying an Advance from Keighley to Ashford would mean you can only travel on a particular HS1 service, or would this section be open?

I usually only travel Keighley to London on advances, so not too sure how they work on multiple services. The websites seem to imply all the trains are fixed, but I know this isn't always the case.

I booked an advance for my son (17) from Carlisle to Rainham (Kent) and it also included a reservation on a specific HS1 service - but 30 minutes later than the service he would expect to catch, assuming arrival at Euston no more than 15 minutes late.

I asked Southeastern if the reservation was mandatory and their reply read that it was not and he could board any train " We don't reserve seats on our trains and tickets are not specific to any service ... " I responded asking why therefore a specific services was allocated and that a lot of people will think they have to wait until the departure time on the reservation coupon but no reply.

 

[Hadders]

I booked an advance for my son (17) from Carlisle to Rainham (Kent) and it also included a reservation on a specific HS1 service - but 30 minutes later than the service he would expect to catch, assuming arrival at Euston no more than 15 minutes late.

I asked Southeastern if the reservation was mandatory and their reply read that it was not and he could board any train " We don't reserve seats on our trains and tickets are not specific to any service ... " I responded asking why therefore a specific services was allocated and that a lot of people will think they have to wait until the departure time on the reservation coupon but no reply.

This is an unintended consequence of Southeastern offering their own Advance fares on HS1. We've seen similar issues on London Midland too.

The situation really ought to be clarified.

 

[Starmill]

People need to be clear that HS1 services are now reservable. I wish they weren't, but there it is, and it's a) as Hadders says so they can offer their own Advances, and b) to prevent the tickets such as the ones discussed from being valid on High Speed trains when Southeastern don't want them to, or to enable them to charge people who get a different SE connecting train.

By far the best thing to do is to chose an itinerary on an unreservable train wherever possible. In most cases the conditions wouldn't prevent you from travelling on High Speed if you did that.

 

[yorksrob]

Non-Intercity services shouldn't be reservable at all. It's just an excuse by TOC's to force people onto specific trains for no good reason.

 

[yorkie]

Non-Intercity services shouldn't be reservable at all. It's just an excuse by TOC's to force people onto specific trains for no good reason.

Agreed.

The situation really ought to be clarified.

I agree it should be.

But it won't be. Different Companies want different outcomes (and some may want to allow it in some cases and not in others), they would not be able to agree on a common approach. The rail industry is ridiculously fragmented and is effectively unregulated, so no-one can make them agree!

There is now the ludicrous situation whereby there are trains shown in timetables as 'reserveable', where you get a reservation coupon which isn't actually a reservation in any meaningful sense, and no actual reservations. Take a look at this screenshot to show how passengers are being misled by certain Train Companies.

(For the benefit of anyone unable to see it, it shows a journey from Church Fenton to New Pudsey, with reservations purporting to be available... good luck with that!!)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Non-Intercity services shouldn't be reservable at all. It's just an excuse by TOC's to force people onto specific trains for no good reason.

The "good resason" is the TOC offering their own Advance tickets, for which you book a specific train.

The web booking systems cannot differentiate between a train with reservations and a train with counted places for a TOC's own local advance tickets. I'd agree that needds to change, but I regularly use Northern AP tickets as they're cheap and I'd hate to see them go.

 

[yorksrob]

The "good resason" is the TOC offering their own Advance tickets, for which you book a specific train.

The web booking systems cannot differentiate between a train with reservations and a train with counted places for a TOC's own local advance tickets. I'd agree that needds to change, but I regularly use Northern AP tickets as they're cheap and I'd hate to see them go.

Perhaps the railway should move to a rule of only specifying a particular train for the main leg of any journey.

 

[telstarbox]

Not always obvious which is the main leg - see the Bradford-Nottingham example a few years back where the reservable section was Bradford-Leeds on EC rather than the Leeds-Notts leg on Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

Not always obvious which is the main leg - see the Bradford-Nottingham example a few years back where the reservable section was Bradford-Leeds on EC rather than the Leeds-Notts leg on Northern.

In that instance, the Leeds - Nottingham leg would be the main section. Leeds Bradford is really a local journey, with only occasional InterCity journeys. There's really nothing to be gained from restricting people on it. Afterall, with more freedom, people might be persuaded to cough up more money in the eateries and shops of Leeds City station, making more money for the railway!

 

[Starmill]

But the practical problem arises differentiting that. How do you have the Bradford F Sq - London KX train not give them a reservation? You agree it should be reservable in the true sense I assume? Should it not be reservable from Bradford to Leeds? Well then people going through Bradford -London wouldnt get reservations! How do you solve that?
There are further problems. Liverpool to Bristol sounds like an Inter-City journey to me. But which bit is the main journey, Liverpool to Birmingham or Birmingham to Bristol? Peterborough to Swindon? Weymouth to Milton Keynes? Axminster to Stevenage? Northampton to Didcot?

 

[yorksrob]

But the practical problem arises differentiting that. How do you have the Bradford F Sq - London KX train not give them a reservation? You agree it should be reservable in the true sense I assume? Should it not be reservable from Bradford to Leeds? Well then people going through Bradford -London wouldnt get reservations! How do you solve that?
There are further problems. Liverpool to Bristol sounds like an Inter-City journey to me. But which bit is the main journey, Liverpool to Birmingham or Birmingham to Bristol? Peterborough to Swindon? Weymouth to Milton Keynes? Axminster to Stevenage? Northampton to Didcot?

Perhaps it should only be reservable for those travelling to and from places beyond Leeds.

Alternatively perhaps we need to get away from all reservable legs having to specify a train in the first place. If they can have different trains with different allocations of Advance tickets at different prices, I don't see why the sky would fall in if some longer distance AP's didn't specify a connecting service.

 

[telstarbox]

In that instance, the Leeds - Nottingham leg would be the main section. Leeds Bradford is really a local journey, with only occasional InterCity journeys. There's really nothing to be gained from restricting people on it. Afterall, with more freedom, people might be persuaded to cough up more money in the eateries and shops of Leeds City station, making more money for the railway!

You'd think so but it wasn't. The ticket was "East Coast + Connections" using presumably spare capacity on the EC service from Bradford which would then fill up at Leeds. This was at a time when Northern didn't offer their own Advances anywhere.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=781819

 

[Starmill]

I think it was an unforseen circumstance by the pricing team, who introduced Leeds (+West Yorkshire local stations) to Nottingham (+East Midlands local stations) 'EC&Connections' Advances with the idea that people would get a local (unreservable!) train to Leeds, East Coast to Newark or Grantham, and then connecting East Midlands Trains services. The tickets would, however, issue wherever there was a reserved EC leg and connecting trains by permitted TOCs (of which Northern was one), subject to the eletronic routing guide data.

The booking engine definitely thought it was a Bradford to Leeds journey with a connecting train from Leeds to Nottingham. That's a deficiency of the website that it didn't know any better.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Thanks for all the replies, so if I buy the ticket and it specifies a particular HS1 time, I should be free to catch any connecting train, even from Victoria - but am best to create a suitable itinerary online to carry with me in case of queries?

 

[John @ home]

am best to create a suitable itinerary online to carry with me in case of queries?

Yes.
.

 

[Starmill]

Better not to have it give you a time on a train you definitely don't want to use.