Fasting drivers

[tsr]

I know some railway staff who do not eat during their shifts anyway, as they say they have somehow got used to it and so it helps manage their concentration levels.

I do not personally subscribe to this for myself - I have done what (for my workplace) are relatively short shifts eating only an extremely negligible amount, but find that if I were to do a medium-length or longer shift, this would be too much to handle without being distracted by being hungry. I am on my feet for very much of my time, sometimes moving quite vigorously, and keeping alert. Hydration is certainly very important throughout, but food is not such a problem until after a good few hours. I am duty bound not to go around thinking of how much I want food but instead thinking of safety first.

For this reason, although my religion is not Islamic, I do feel for my Muslim colleagues as they dedicate themselves to their faith in this way, and hope that everyone is respectful to each other and that all can find a safe system of work throughout. I can see that there may be (perhaps medium-term) mental benefits from fasting in a peaceful environment, but I would very much struggle at work.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sunset tonight was 21.21 and my booked PNB was after that.

I've never heard of any issue with Ramadan. I do know of someone (not a Driver) who saves their annual leave up and takes the time off. (this is permitted under our t&c's)

 

[zuriblue]

I remember seeing somewhere on the web recently some Muslims in the Land of the Midnight Sun having to seek clarification from Muslim authorities since they had no sunset in which to break their fast.

Quite often they get a dispensation to use sunrise/ sunset in Mecca.

 

[pompeyfan]

Would colleagues and management be accommodating of duty swaps? My concern is that the business is not a generic 9-5 world (as a lot of industries are not either), so how do Muslims get around 0100 finishes, or even 0300 starts with sufficient rest? Think about it, you sign off at c0100, you get home at 0130, you eat, you sleep, you wake up to do a morning prayer ( and wash in line with prayer rituals), you've had about 3 hours sleep... Presumably if eating and drinking during sunlight hours is forbidden then sleeping during sunlight would be too? Now you may tell me that not eating doesn't hamper concentration, but lack of sleep 100% does.

My point is that it would be easier to negate if the colleague could do a middle instead of an early or late, secondly would the colleague even want their duty changed? As an employer you can't go around changing people's dutys just because they practice a certain religion, that's discrimination, even if you are trying to help.

 

[Elwyn]

I travelled through Syria during Ramadan some years ago with a Muslim driver. It was very hot and he drank (and smoked) during the journey. When we enquired about it, he said that in that sort of situation the Koran allowed him to remain hydrated (though he still wasn’t supposed to smoke). However he also added that just like all religions, practice in Islam varies. Some people take it more seriously than others.

Regarding the varying times of sunset, I noticed in a restaurant where we ate in Damascus that they had a TV on which showed sunset at Mecca. The authorities fire a gun at Mecca when it is officially dark, and then everyone starts eating. So that’s how some Muslims deal with the varying sunset/no sunset issue.

 

[me123]

Regarding the varying times of sunset, I noticed in a restaurant where we ate in Damascus that they had a TV on which showed sunset at Mecca. The authorities fire a gun at Mecca when it is officially dark, and then everyone starts eating. So that’s how some Muslims deal with the varying sunset/no sunset issue.

One of my Islamic colleagues is really struggling with Ramadan this year, because here in Aberdeen the sun sets at 22:07 and rises at 04:12, which really hits into a 12 hour working day. She makes concessions by having a very light lunch during the day to keep her going.

(I've not quizzed her too much on this, but she doesn't wear a headdress so I suspect that she's not an overly devout Muslim).

 

[w0033944]

I agree. Although in fact, as part of the brain's blood supply is diverted for some considerable time during the digestion of a big - or even small - Mac, I'd rather have the Muslim driver! Mind you having no water for 18 hours, I'd certianly rather he'd tanked up before coming on duty - which might in turn lead to difficulties en route...
I've eventually come to the conclusion that atheism should be a necessary part of route knowledge.

Biologically-speaking, most people, assuming they do not have diabetes or any other metabolic/endocrine disorder or condition, are quite capable of functioning well without food for the daylight period even in a northern country around midsummer. My greater concern is dehydration in warm summer weather, especially if a loco/unit cab has inadequate ventilation, and consequently becomes excessively hot.

 

[amateur]

re: above, aren't the "working condition" in some of the underground station "worse". muggy, stuffy, clammy, hot ... i'm sure station staff in these conditions are prone to collapsing, fainting due to lack of water/hydration!

 

[reb0118]

....feinting due to lack of water/hydration!

Ah, pretending to faint - very clever.

 

[amateur]

Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

How is your religion getting in the way? It's not haram (or makruh) to drive a train? (On the other hand a Muslim wouldn't apply for a job selling pork or sausage, or a job which say encourages gambling).

A Muslim can still work 9-5. Despite needing to pray 5 times a day. How are they letting their "religion get in the way" ?

 

[matt_world2004]

This is of course making the assumption that every Muslim has a unified thought process on ramadan. The reality among people who subscribe to the Islamic faith is that there would be degrees of observance from someone who may be Muslim in name alone and may not observe Ramadan to someone who refuses any food and fluids even when dying. And like some adherances to Judaism I would imagine if the role is incompatible with their faith they either don't apply or do not make it through the recruitment process. I would imagine there are no Jewish train drivers who believe it is forbidden to operate mechanical machinery during the Sabbath.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Where is the longest fast in the world?

In Reykjavik, Iceland, the fast will be about 21 hours 57 minutes long in the beginning of the month, with a fast starting at 2:03am and finishing at midnight.

Lapland...and think of the train drivers there who might be fasting
Actually I understand that in Finland Muslims will use the hours of daylight for Helsinki, which is still some 18 hours 55minutes today.

From what I read there are quite a few, actually pragmatic and sensible exceptions to fasting. I should ask a friend of mine, but I understand that if the fasting puts yourself or other in potential danger then you may eat...

t.

Ian

 

[dk1]

How is your religion getting in the way? It's not haram (or makruh) to drive a train? (On the other hand a Muslim wouldn't apply for a job selling pork or sausage, or a job which say encourages gambling).

A Muslim can still work 9-5. Despite needing to pray 5 times a day. How are they letting their "religion get in the way" ?

Better be careful what I say as it tends to offend & gets deleted. On the subject of pork, Anglia tried (& I mean tried) to get conductors to man the class 170 buffets on the Basingstoke CrossLink route to save money. Soon as one Liverpool St member mentioned he'd refuse to touch BLTs, Bacon rolls etc the company gave up & buried the idea.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

There's a strong thread in the literature about the Christian tradition of fasting that it makes one more alert rather than less. I would imagine this isn't confined to Christian or even religious experience.

In Islam I believe travellers are exempt from fasting anyway.

The Christian version is Lent, so one is suppose to give up something for 40 days and 40 nights - In my case its not having sugar in my hot beverage.

In Islam they have Ramadan so when they fast, its from the point the sun rises to the sun sets. I do believe that Hinduism and Sikhism have similar events.
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Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

God (excuse the pun) but I would hate to run my own business these days what with this, paternity leave & other entitlements. For a smaller company it must be a nightmare.

Because people have different faiths, it shouldn't mean that they have to abandon it when they go to work because some atheist is offended by it.

The company I work for the staff including management are mostly Catholics me and two others are CoE and we all work together. If someone has to go to Confession, then they are allowed to as the company permits it.

 

[dk1]

The company I work for the staff including management are mostly Catholics me and two others are CoE and we all work together. If someone has to go to Confession, then they are allowed to as the company permits it.

I was christened Catholic. Best i don't go to confession on duty as i may well be gone for some time. Don't wan't any more 'please explains'

 

[route:oxford]

One of my Islamic colleagues is really struggling with Ramadan this year, because here in Aberdeen the sun sets at 22:07 and rises at 04:12, which really hits into a 12 hour working day. She makes concessions by having a very light lunch during the day to keep her going.

(I've not quizzed her too much on this, but she doesn't wear a headdress so I suspect that she's not an overly devout Muslim).

A few years back, when the Ramadan also fell around the longest day, a group of us went to Orkney to play midnight Golf. Included in our group was a Muslim chap who, like most people of faith, was generally considerate to their faith but not troubled by it.

For some reason, the two parts hadn't connected in his head... "Midnight Golf" and "Fasting". Whilst the sun does go down, it never really gets dark - he was absolutely starving. It got to about 3am when the sun started to come up again when he decided that he was on "London Time" and started scoffing what was to hand.

 

[30907]

The Christian version is Lent, so one is suppose to give up something for 40 days and 40 nights - In my case its not having sugar in my hot beverage

There are other forms of fast in Christian tradition, such as days of prayer and fasting, which are more intense but not continuous. Not something I often practise thats another matter.
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The Christian version is Lent, so one is suppose to give up something for 40 days and 40 nights - In my case its not having sugar in my hot beverage

There are other forms of fast in Christian tradition, such as days of prayer and fasting, which are more intense but not continuous. Not something I often practise thats another matter.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The industry has been collecting data on everything for years, is there a noticeable spike in operational incidents during Ramadan?

 

[amateur]

Are there that many Muslim train drivers in the first place, at any TOC? (Relative to local taxi drivers, say for eg). Proportionate % wise.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was christened Catholic. Best i don't go to confession on duty as i may well be gone for some time. Don't wan't any more 'please explains'

Would those be from your priest or your employer

 

[BestWestern]

If you are involved in an incident one of the questions on the paperwork is 'When did you last have something to drink', closely followed by 'When did you last have something to eat'. It is expected of you that you take sensible care in ensuring your wellbeing and fitness to function properly.

Having said that, in today's utterly paranoid world it would be interesting to see what action a TOC would take against a fasting driver answering the above questions accordingly.

 

[TDK]

I used to work at Birmingham that has quite a high level of Muslims who are Drivers and during Ramadan they would fast but never had any safety of the line incidents, my opinion is that I feel that for comfort reasons that there maybe should be something in place within the religion to allow the Muslim community to follow the sunrise and sunset times from Mecca as it would be a lot better for the people who practice the fast however I did discuss with my Muslim friends and colleagues and they said the religion quotes from sunrise to sunset however I do not believe this was ever put in pace for communities living outside Mecca.

It used to be great for non Muslims like myself on a late shift as they would bring in food for each other en mass to eat in the mess room as the sun set and it was left for any others who were en route, I was always be offered a taster of the food that was traditional food from the country of their ancestors.

To summarise, as I have never experienced drivers partaking in Ramadan having a higher level of incidents historically where is the problem? If this trend ever changes then something may have to be addressed but until then leave it as it is !!
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If you are involved in an incident one of the questions on the paperwork is 'When did you last have something to drink', closely followed by 'When did you last have something to eat'. It is expected of you that you take sensible care in ensuring your wellbeing and fitness to function properly.

Having said that, in today's utterly paranoid world it would be interesting to see what action a TOC would take against a fasting driver answering the above questions accordingly.

I am sure the drivers partaking would be accommodated as that is what I would do as a manager.
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Are there that many Muslim train drivers in the first place, at any TOC? (Relative to local taxi drivers, say for eg). Proportionate % wise.

Yes, there are quite a few, I don't know the percentage but Birmingham has a high level.

 

[Minilad]

Yes, there are quite a few, I don't know the percentage but Birmingham has a high level.

Not at Birmingham XC. I can only think of around 5 or 6 out of 180 or so. None of whom I would regard as particularly devout. A couple of them are positively un-devout!

 

[TDK]

Not at Birmingham XC. I can only think of around 5 or 6 out of 180 or so. None of whom I would regard as particularly devout. A couple of them are positively un-devout!

LM and Chiltern have quite a few practicing Muslims

 

[amateur]

How are the muslim brothers and sisters(?)* coping today?

* are there any female muslim drivers out there, i wonder

 

[GadgetMan]

How are the muslim brothers coping

Just got home from a 10 hour day (Driving), feel absolutely fine which is probably down to decent Air con on the trains I work and messrooms I visit

I find the broken/messed up sleep patterns are the bigger issue, the food/drink part doesn't really bother me.

Afternoon shifts seem to feel better as I can have a good 8 hours sleep before going to work. The down side is both meals have to be eaten whilst at work and usually Driving as the PNB is normally diagrammed before sunset.

As I said above, fatigue is more of a problem on morning shifts as there is no way of getting good solid sleep in. You can sleep a few hours after work, wake up to break the fast, but then I find it impossible to fall asleep again until around 3 am, which is about the time I have to get up. OR stay up after work til sunset, break the fast but also consume enough for the next day and then get some sleep from around 11pm to 3-4am depending on start time.

After experiencing Ramadan last year which was my first as a Driver (was previously a Guard) I've been doing things slightly differently this year. on PM shifts I fast as normal. On AM shifts I only fast if I have a late start of around 7+ AM allowing me to get plenty of sleep in before work. If I'm starting at 4-6 am then I won't fast the previous day as I don't want to wake up and interrupt my sleep at 9:30pm. However I may fast on the early start day if I'm starting late or rest day the next day as I can have my breakfast before work by waking up a couple of hours earlier than normal. Hope the above makes sense to readers

As an example I had a 4:30ish start today, I didn't fast yesterday so I could sleep through sunset. I'm Rest Day tomorrow, so instead of getting up at 3 am this morning, I got up at 1am and had some food and fasted today as it won't affect me tomorrow.

For me it is slightly simpler as I don't go to evening (Isha + Taraweeh) prayers at the mosque, which would only make things tougher as the late prayers don't finish til past midnight.

We're all different so other members of Traincrew may do things differently. From the depot I work at and Drivers I see during my shift I'm the only Muslim so don't really know what other Drivers do. Adapting to it this year I'm coping much better than last year, however I have missed 2 fasts so far this month. Which is far better than catching yourself microsleeping whilst at the controls and having an incident or worse causing injuries/or fatalities however unlikely.

 

[theironroad]

Sounds like you've got a good system going gadget man.

How's it going in the hot weather with hydration, are you drinking water or complete fast.

 

[alexl92]

Just got home from a 10 hour day (Driving), feel absolutely fine which is probably down to decent Air con on the trains I work and messrooms I visit

I find the broken/messed up sleep patterns are the bigger issue, the food/drink part doesn't really bother me.

Afternoon shifts seem to feel better as I can have a good 8 hours sleep before going to work. The down side is both meals have to be eaten whilst at work and usually Driving as the PNB is normally diagrammed before sunset.

As I said above, fatigue is more of a problem on morning shifts as there is no way of getting good solid sleep in. You can sleep a few hours after work, wake up to break the fast, but then I find it impossible to fall asleep again until around 3 am, which is about the time I have to get up. OR stay up after work til sunset, break the fast but also consume enough for the next day and then get some sleep from around 11pm to 3-4am depending on start time.

After experiencing Ramadan last year which was my first as a Driver (was previously a Guard) I've been doing things slightly differently this year. on PM shifts I fast as normal. On AM shifts I only fast if I have a late start of around 7+ AM allowing me to get plenty of sleep in before work. If I'm starting at 4-6 am then I won't fast the previous day as I don't want to wake up and interrupt my sleep at 9:30pm. However I may fast on the early start day if I'm starting late or rest day the next day as I can have my breakfast before work by waking up a couple of hours earlier than normal. Hope the above makes sense to readers

As an example I had a 4:30ish start today, I didn't fast yesterday so I could sleep through sunset. I'm Rest Day tomorrow, so instead of getting up at 3 am this morning, I got up at 1am and had some food and fasted today as it won't affect me tomorrow.

For me it is slightly simpler as I don't go to evening (Isha + Taraweeh) prayers at the mosque, which would only make things tougher as the late prayers don't finish til past midnight.

We're all different so other members of Traincrew may do things differently. From the depot I work at and Drivers I see during my shift I'm the only Muslim so don't really know what other Drivers do. Adapting to it this year I'm coping much better than last year, however I have missed 2 fasts so far this month. Which is far better than catching yourself microsleeping whilst at the controls and having an incident or worse causing injuries/or fatalities however unlikely.

This is very enlightening and I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Just out of interest, what allows you to miss a fast? I've heard that the rules allow for a degree of discernment - is it this, or are you allowed to miss a certain number of days during Ramadan, for example?

 

[GadgetMan]

This is very enlightening and I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Just out of interest, what allows you to miss a fast? I've heard that the rules allow for a degree of discernment - is it this, or are you allowed to miss a certain number of days during Ramadan, for example?

I personally just do what works for me, as I said above, there is absolutely no point in taking on more than you can chew. I tried keeping 100% fasts last year as I have every year since about the age of 9 or 10 but I was really struggling to stay awake purely because it is impossible to get a good sleep in for morning shifts.

I'm sure some people (Muslims) would feel they need to consult an Imaam before feeling they can miss a few/all fasts and they may well be right, I'm quite happy to decide what I can and can't manage for myself. You can make up for missed fasts at a later more convenient time by fasting during other days in the year.

Sounds like you've got a good system going gadget man.

How's it going in the hot weather with hydration, are you drinking water or complete fast

Complete fasts as they don't really count otherwise. I haven't felt any issues with not eating drinking during the day.

Not quite sure on it being a good system, too early to say at the moment. It feels more like we struggle through rather than 'enjoy' the spirit of the month. It works well for people who are unemployed/work in a more flexible job where they can pick and choose hours or live in a predominantly Muslim country where the whole country adapts for the month.

 

[TDK]

This is very enlightening and I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Just out of interest, what allows you to miss a fast? I've heard that the rules allow for a degree of discernment - is it this, or are you allowed to miss a certain number of days during Ramadan, for example?

I spoke to a devout Muslim friend of mine the other day and he told me that it is an individuals choice to fast and it isn't a rule but it is the order or the Muslim God, he went on to say that he fasts because it is his Gods wish, he also said that they do not only fast but refrain from any sexual activity as well during Ramadan. In my opinion I have the utmost respect for these people as I wouldn't fast for a day even if I had a vision from God telling me to or I will be a sinner and if they are employed by a company and have difficulty in maintaining enough awareness to carry out their duties the should be accommodate with flexible turns to fit in with their religious beliefs. However if any time is taken for this they should lose annual leave days as Christians do for Christmas and Boxing Day