Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[Senex]

If you are going to be negative, you will always be disappointed. To get things done, you have to engage the obstacles and keep going. The project will be delivered at some point in the future and this re-set is all about making sure that those commitments are deliverable.

If you trust politicians you will usually be disappointed. I shouldn't like to place a bet now that either the MML or Trans-Pennine will be electrified during my lifetime. (On the other hand, I have a horrible suspicion that I may just see HS2, at least in its southern part ....)

 

[Robertj21a]

If you trust politicians you will usually be disappointed. I shouldn't like to place a bet now that either the MML or Trans-Pennine will be electrified during my lifetime. (On the other hand, I have a horrible suspicion that I may just see HS2, at least in its southern part ....)

The trouble with a statement like that is we don't know if you are already 83 years old !!!

 

[edwin_m]

The trouble with a statement like that is we don't know if you are already 83 years old !!!

To those who remember a bit of Latin, that is quite likely to be so for a poster named Senex.
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There was a report done by ARUP - see


http://http://www.emcouncils.gov.uk/write/Case-for-Upgrading-Electrifying-Midland-Main-Line251111.pdf

The "plan" had been to improve journey times by 15 minutes with Nottingham in 90 minutes and Sheffield under 120 minutes, including:

- Improvements to enable higher line speeds scheduled to be delivered by 2014;
- Electrification of the line from Bedford to Sheffield via Leicester and Derby, Trent Junction to Nottingham, plus Kettering to Corby; - now paused
- Accommodating train lengthening for high speed services (up to 11 car formations), and procuring an extra 13 train units; - could now come from GWML MK3s
- Derby station track re-modelling; - still happening?
- Dore Junction re-doubling;
- Further line speed improvements at Market Harborough; - still happening
- Upgrading Sheffield Station, including track remodelling and platform extensions to enable longer trains; and
- Resignalling and track remodelling in the Leicester area.

Plug doors on the HSTs would also reduce station dwell times.

I would expect most of these to go ahead, though perhaps not to the original programme. The journey time targets are probably achievable by 222s without electrification but possibly not HSTs - the 0755 Nottingham to London only takes 91min today with two stops. I imagine the extra trains would be HSTs with these and the existing ones receiving some sort of refurbishment for accessibility compliance and anything else that is needed to give them another five years or so.

Any suggestion of further procurement of long-distance diesels or bi-modes, beyond those already being discussed such as the West of England AT300s, would be a strong sign that the deferment is turning into a cancellation.

 

[Senex]

The trouble with a statement like that is we don't know if you are already 83 years old !!!

I thought I'd given a clue as to time-scale by the reference to HS2, where work on the London-Birmingham line is supposed to start in 2017 for opening in 2026. Not 83 yet awhile (though there are a good many times when I feel it -- hence the choice of name).http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

 

[Taunton]

There have been those who try to make party political capital out of all this, but in truth Network Rail have been pulling the wool over everybody's eyes at the official level about the progress (or lack of it) with the schemes.

This quite blatant "The Emperor Has No Clothes" situation is really poor for such a major organisation, and Richard Parry-Jones' playing this to the politicians is indeed why he has had to go. Alas, he had no experience of any transportation system, let alone railways, having come from design and manufacturing at Ford. One of the upsides, which I am very hopeful about, of Sir Peter Hendy's appointment is that he does know what he is looking at on the ground, knows a scissors crossover from the kitchen scissors, and is not dependent just on management reporting structures and spreadsheets that get massaged at every step up through the organisation.

A further advantage Sir Peter brings is,with an office in London and living in Bath, he will I'm sure be maintaining a very close personal interest in exactly what is happening outside the window on the GW electrification as he goes to and fro. If he follows his usual form, it's likely he will be joining the Front End quite frequently to get an even better view (and get some commentary from the guys who see it daily), whereas P-J's typical approach would be receiving elegantly prepared Powerpoint whitewashes by the PR side of the project. One of the first signs of any reporting gloss-over in a project is when it starts being micro-divided by the reporting team, as happened here. Electrification used to report miles wired, quite a way from completion but still well down the installation road. On the GW we moved backwards to report masts installed, and then when there was no progress there, to report foundations piled - just about the first step of the physical work. And even that was being cocked. I believe that, apart from some sidings at Reading and Swindon, not a metre of wire has gone up yet over any GWML running lines.

Parry-Jones has embarrassed Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, particularly as the postponement of the MML electrification impacts, to an extent, his constituency based at Matlock, being their link down to London, but in truth hardly any of his constituents will use the train daily. I'm really hoping that he will now will have it out with the real blunderers, at the Dept. of Transport, who appointed the top NR team and were very well paid to keep an oversight of it all. I wonder if there's a single engineer among them.

 

[yorksrob]

Blunderers, or people trying to make an unworkable system work?

One wonders whether lack of engineers at the specification stage (if that be the Case) is a symptom of the system rather than the cause

 

[Taunton]

There was nothing unworkable about the GW electrification. Trying to do it together with MML and Manchester-Leeds maybe, but work on the other two hasn't even really started, so has no impact on the lack of GW progress, or the substantial costs to date which appear to have disappeared down the drain. What we still haven't had is any description, beyond half a paragraph, about exactly why there has been a lack of progress.

Mark Carne has had it easy with Parry-Jones at the top handling the political relationships. Hendy is so much sharper in this area. I am guessing that Carne is probably polishing up his CV this weekend.

 

[Class 170101]

Basically the Mark 3 coaches are good for another 20 years:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/hsts-are-good-to-2035.html

That analysis was done in 2011 surely it needs updating at the very least?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is Sheffield the largest city in Europe with no electrified railway?

Irrelevant to the present discussion, but the first city in UK to have a modern electrified tram system.

I thought Manchester were operating Metrolink before the opening of the Sheffield trams. I assume that's what mean by "Modern"

I thought Tyne and Wear Metro was the first?

 

[Elecman]

And politicians/DaFT aren't responsible for all the project scope creep that the politicians added to GW/ TPE and even NWEP??? ,

There was no scope-creep in the agreed projects which NR has failed to deliver. None of the of the recent pre-election promises made it on to the CP5 work-bank that I am aware of.

You are deluded in that case and seriously missinformed

 

[Mojo]

I thought Tyne and Wear Metro was the first?

Tyne/Wear Metro is not a Tramway.

The Tyne/Wear Metro was the first modern Light rail system in the country. Greater Manchester had the first second-generation Tramway.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought Tyne and Wear Metro was the first?

Usually thought of as previous generation, its 1500v DC overhead system is obsolete.

 

[northwichcat]

Greater Manchester had the first second-generation Tramway.

Metrolink was originally classed as a "Light Rapid Transit System" and was seen as similar to Docklands Light Railway.

 

[AM9]

Usually thought of as previous generation, its 1500v DC overhead system is obsolete.

On heavy rail, yes that was abandoned in the 1955 Railway Modernisation Plan, but on a light rail RT system, it represents a viable means of reducing supply losses compared with the more usual 600VDC used on more compact systems.

 

[edwin_m]

On heavy rail, yes that was abandoned in the 1955 Railway Modernisation Plan, but on a light rail RT system, it represents a viable means of reducing supply losses compared with the more usual 600VDC used on more compact systems.

Usually 750Vdc these days, and de facto standard. There's probably no reason 1500V couldn't be used but would the benefits be worth the cost and risk of doing something different?

 

[daccer]

As most on here have commented the postponement of the MML electrification was very predictable. I live on the MML but also travel around the county for work and have seen different stretches of the GWML where little or no work has been done on getting wires up. In fact I would suggest that the numerous enabling works including bridge raising etc already completed on the MML probably shows more progress than the seemingly hotchpotch approach on the GWML.

One thing to recognise though is that the MML delay is by no means a disaster. The service as it stands is passable and fairly reliable. The HST's are a little tired but journey times are fairly short and the trains get things done. A few more HST's in the short term and some minor journey time reductions will keep the punters happy. Whether the trains are electric or not is neither here nor there to the average joe. Better to postpone it and do it right than have years of angst and chaos caused by trying to do too much too soon.

BTW I am probably in a minority of one but I think NR should be left as it is to get on with upgrading the network. Of course they keep missing targets but if they met their targets then people would claim the targets themselves were not stringent enough. If you want a privatised railway there has to be a Network Rail somewhere in the mix. If you keep the present structure of franchising and 'competition'I don't see what the alternative to Network Rail is to ensure a level playing field for the TOC's.

 

[Taunton]

In fact I would suggest that the numerous enabling works including bridge raising etc already completed on the MML probably shows more progress than the seemingly hotchpotch approach on the GWML.

As I understand it, even the basic civils of bridge raising etc on the suspended routes have been stopped this weekend, apart from cases where they really are past the point of no return.

One positive I do hope comes out of all this is that Peter Hendy will just reassign the various teams and contractors to the work, regardless of existing arrangements, absolutely on the basis of who has been doing a straightforward and efficient job, and just letting go of the non-performers.

 

[Mojo]

Metrolink was originally classed as a "Light Rapid Transit System" and was seen as similar to Docklands Light Railway.

They all were; "Tram" was considered a dirty word and outdated, hence the use of the term "Light rapid transit." It still doesn't make my statement any less correct; Metrolink is the first second-generation Tram system in the country.

 

[infobleep]

Getting people through PTS is not actually too difficult, but there is cost and time associated with it and it is an example of the sort of restrictions faced on the operational railway that aren't there on a new-build site.

More critical is the fact that you can't just crack on with the job like you can on a 'green field' site, where you can work 8 or 12-hour shifts during the day. By contrast working on the operational railway means:

- 4 hour window for night working (if you're lucky), but having to pay everyone for a full shift at overtime rates
- 1 hour of that will be spent mobilising and demobilising staff and equipment so the railway is handed back safely for traffic
- alternatively, weekend working which closes down the railway and needs to be planned with military precision (see Kings Cross last Christmas for an example of what happens if this goes wrong).
- specialist railway kit rather than standard civil engineering machines
- more staff time spent ensuring safety - sometimes exclusively (e.g. lookouts)
- massive 'interface' issues with existing equipment, e.g. piling through unrecorded signal cables

All this means that upgrade work sucks in more resource than equivalent work on a new build project, so when you have a limited pool of experienced engineers, technicians as at present, it becomes difficult.

Ditching HS2 wouldn't solving anything at this point. It's currently in the design stage with construction starting in 2017. The first years will be all about civil engineering which can be done by the wider industry. Only by 2022-23 (I guess) will P-way, signalling and overhead lines begin to be installed on HS2, which is when you might expect there to be competition for these specialist resources between HS2 and upgrading the existing railway. HOPEFULLY the skill base will have been expanded by then to cope.

If it's not. I guess they will have to postpone some other projects instead or delay any that haven't started.
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Of those 7, all are on routes which are already electrified.

Yes there are 3 which are London Midland and 2 are SWT's services, but they wouldn't benefit from more electrification. Just more rolling stock for LM and Crossrail 2 for SWT.

The rolling stock issue should be really easy to solve. I guess politics gets in the way in guess.

 

[HH]

IThe rolling stock issue should be really easy to solve u less politics gets in the way I guess.

Politics gets in the way of everything.

 

[kieron]

There have been those who try to make party political capital out of all this, but in truth Network Rail have been pulling the wool over everybody's eyes at the official level about the progress (or lack of it) with the schemes.

If that's the case (and I don't know if it is or not - I've always assumed that large public sector infrastructure projects always came in late and over-budget), then doesn't it reflect as badly on those who allowed themselves to be fooled as on those who fooled them?

I wonder if Patrick McLoughlin will still be around when Sir Peter Hendy files his report.

 

[hassaanhc]

A further advantage Sir Peter brings is,with an office in London and living in Bath, he will I'm sure be maintaining a very close personal interest in exactly what is happening outside the window on the GW electrification as he goes to and fro. If he follows his usual form, it's likely he will be joining the Front End quite frequently to get an even better view (and get some commentary from the guys who see it daily), whereas P-J's typical approach would be receiving elegantly prepared Powerpoint whitewashes by the PR side of the project. One of the first signs of any reporting gloss-over in a project is when it starts being micro-divided by the reporting team, as happened here. Electrification used to report miles wired, quite a way from completion but still well down the installation road. On the GW we moved backwards to report masts installed, and then when there was no progress there, to report foundations piled - just about the first step of the physical work. And even that was being cocked. I believe that, apart from some sidings at Reading and Swindon, not a metre of wire has gone up yet over any GWML running lines.

Quite a decent amount of masts and some complete gantries have appeared between Maidenhead and Slough in recent weeks. The Reading to Oxford section had gantries at least 75% complete in August last year when I travelled that way. But yes, I'm not aware of any actual wires and associated fittings being up yet.

 

[HH]

There have been those who try to make party political capital out of all this, but in truth Network Rail have been pulling the wool over everybody's eyes at the official level about the progress (or lack of it) with the schemes.

Have they? The lack of progress on Transpennine has been common knowledge for months.

 

[AM9]

I wonder if Patrick McLoughlin will still be around when Sir Peter Hendy files his report.

Or will the report be doctored by the government to make sure that the 'appropriate people are blamed'.

 

[Taunton]

Or will the report be doctored by the government to make sure that the 'appropriate people are blamed'.

I am sort-of confident that Patrick McLoughlin, doubtless aided by his new friend Boris, who Hendy currently reports to, now sat alongside on the Parliament benches, has selected Hendy precisely because of his track record for telling it exactly how it is.

 

[kieron]

It will be a relief if he can avoid the temptation to make the report as bad as possible in order to make whatever he does subsequently look a bit better.

It's nothing to do with him personally; this is always a danger of letting the new boss review what the old one did.

 

[Stats]

Or will the report be doctored by the government to make sure that the 'appropriate people are blamed'.

It will be a relief if he can avoid the temptation to make the report as bad as possible in order to make whatever he does subsequently look a bit better.

It's nothing to do with him personally; this is always a danger of letting the new boss review what the old one did.

As I understood it, Sir Peter Hendy's review is not about what went wrong and who to blame, but to reassess the CP5 programme to advise what can still be delivered in the budget available and to what timescale.

 

[QueensCurve]

Why are people even surprised by this cancellation? The tories were obviously going to do this as soon as they won power with a majority. They can't balance the books any other way. And obviously HS2 will go ahead as this represents a massive public handout ofmoney to the private sector. The people who bankrolled the tories want their payback. Government partiality is not reserved just for the tories. In the 60s there were some terrible rail closure decisions and reversals. A prime example is what Barbara Castle did with the Woodhead route

To be perfectly honest, they probably won't balance the books this way either. Austerity doesn't do it.

 

[nottsnurse]

Perhaps a little off-thread (or away from the meat of this thread at least) but does anyone know how/if the cancelling/pausing of the MML electrification will effect the joining of the two sections of the GCR? I'm sure that NR were offering GCR a good deal with the related bridge work due to it being planned to occur alongside other work at Loughborough?

 

[WatcherZero]

Usually 750Vdc these days, and de facto standard. There's probably no reason 1500V couldn't be used but would the benefits be worth the cost and risk of doing something different?

Apparently they aren't allowed to use 1500v in the streets so if they wanted a street running extension they would have to use a different voltage. Their reports on future rolling stock say they want to pre-emptively go to a more standard voltage and see fleet renewal as an opportune time, also says that the 1.5kv Dc equipment being obsolete is expensive to maintain or replace.