Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[howittpie]

Not suprised about 5his announcement the MML has always been ignored. East MidleandsToday stated that the MML has had the least investment of any mainline in Britain. There is going to need be money spent on the HST fleet the ride quality has deteriated over the last couple of years and there seems to have been a general lack of care probaly with expectation of new stock after electrification.

As an aside was talking to a few friends tonight who use the MML and there first comment was bet they are still wasting money on HS2vso this is obviously a preception of people after this announcment.

 

[Mikey C]

As the budget clearly won't do everything planned, you have 2 options
1) Increase the budget (not a goer)
2) Prioritise your existing budget.

Completing the GWML clearly makes sense as this is far further down the line than the MML is, and Network Rail clearly aren't capable of managing too many projects at the same time. MML electrification will happen, and hopefully when it does go ahead, NR will have learnt some lessons.

As for the MML HSTs, well there are plenty of threads from people who want to keep HSTs longer, and moaning about how any replacements will be rubbish. I'm sure they're happy now
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Not suprised about 5his announcement the MML has always been ignored. East MidleandsToday stated that the MML has had the least investment of any mainline in Britain. There is going to need be money spent on the HST fleet the ride quality has deteriated over the last couple of years and there seems to have been a general lack of care probaly with expectation of new stock after electrification.

As an aside was talking to a few friends tonight who use the MML and there first comment was bet they are still wasting money on HS2vso this is obviously a preception of people after this announcment.

I've always enjoyed my trips on the MML, HSTs in reasonable nick, the very decent Meridians, some line speed improvements and a far better frequency than it used to get, I certainly don't get the feeling that it's some sort of forgotten line when it comes to investment.

 

[howittpie]

A few times the first class hosts have moaned about them the HST as they struggle to pour the coffee. I am a fan of HST but they have gone downhill recently. Meridians are dreadful trains. As for speed 1hr 43 mins from Nottingham to London is slow when compared to other lines.

 

[HSTEd]

Well with the IEP journey time improvements on the East Coast and HS2 apparently going to gut the ECML Intercity traffic market you could always support many of the northern MML locations via the East Coast.

Run an IEP to Nottingham via Grantham or Sheffield via Retford. (Grantham looks to be dropping down to an hour or maybe even less).
The journey times should easily be competitive, even with some extra 125mph running on the MML.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

"Paused" means "Axed but we won't announce it till someone important dies or gets married or there is a terrorist attack or some other extreme newsworthy event".

Ed, we've had our differences over the last couple of years but on this occasion I completely agree with you. Say good bye to any further electrification on conventional routes as the Government can't be bothered with the expense. Bravo!

As I said earlier completely cancelling MML electrification will damage to the government in the East Midlands that will play into the hands of Labour in the 2020 general election (in seats that Labour desperately need to win from the Tories) so it won't happen, instead the government will re announce an "improved" MML electrification probably in the 2017 HLOS for funding in CP6 by which time there will be much better understanding of costs for such projects and financial constraints in 2019 onwards will be less important.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Great Western has the oldest fleet on average out of any of the DfT franchised Tocs. The East Coast Main Line benefited from electrification in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The West Coast Main Line has undergone route modernisation in the last decade.

I do not see that this should be a "North v South" thing because the reality is that the South West is far detached from London & the South East as the North is, so it frustrates me to hear that people on this thread are seemingly trying to turn it into one. The fact of the matter is that the South West of England has seen a fair amount of under-investment in terms of transport projects in general, and that upgrades to the railway in that area are rightly being deemed a higher priority given the limited resources available.

Indeed it is actually easy to argue that the North already has more than its fair share. Two mainlines to the North electrified and lines within the area. West of Greater London there is absolutely no electrification. The GWML electrification will be the first to the West. Meanwhile the North is getting new electrification in the area between Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As I said earlier completely cancelling MML electrification will damage to the government in the East Midlands that will play into the hands of Labour in the 2020 general election (in seats that Labour desperately need to win from the Tories) so it won't happen, instead the government will re announce an "improved" MML electrification probably in the 2017 HLOS for funding in CP6 by which time there will be much better understanding of costs for such projects and financial constraints in 2019 onwards will be less important.

Going on what past governments have promised vs what they have delivered for rail, going back decades, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So I've got to stand for nearly an hour on Off-Peak trains between Manchester and Leeds for, rather than just the next few years, the entire forseeable future with the problem getting worse as demand rises and my fares continuing their relentless upward march to pay for... no improvement at all. Somebody correct me, please?

Well I travelled off peak regularly on Thameslink to London Bridge. I also regularly had to stand - on the platform waiting for the next train as I could not get near the doors of the previous train. Overcrowding is everywhere. I go by the statistics that suggest that services out of Paddington are the worst.

Also my impression of Reading station on the GWML is that it is far busier then Stations up the Midland mainline. Possibly busier than Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield combined ?.

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Unfortunately we are now in the situation where the Great Western Wiring Project need to carry on. However I would have not started it at this stage, instead focussing on MML with its greater (potential) links to the existing wired network and the greater abundance of wiring infill projects once the MML wiring had been completed.

Well when the GWML electrification was announced and the MML as well it did occur to me that there was more subsequent infill to be had out of the MML electrification. But then it was pointed out that the GWML was due for re-signalling and other upgrades so it was the best time to electrify.

I have to say I think Network rail etc were always heading for a fall embarking on so many disparate electrification projects simultaneously (GWML, EGIP and NW triangle). It would be better to do one project at a time with each project closely following the previous one and delayed if needs be. Instead we have had large periods of time spent doing no electrification so have had to re-train and re-equip each time. That is why we have such a pressure to electrify so much now. I could trace this mess back to when the West Coast Mainline electrification stopped at Preston at the end of the 60s (or early 70s ?). We have spent fifty years sleep walking into this mess.

 

[Starmill]

The Midland Mainline needs work for future growth, of course, but its bumping along reasonably well from day to day at present. The TransPennine franchise however seems daily like its on the brink of falling apart, with a chronic rolling stock shortage, plummeting reliability and serious overcrowding.

 

[HSTEd]

As I recall Preston was merely a temporary changeover point while work continued north to Glasgow.
It went from Crewe to Glasgow as one project, AIUI.

Electrification continued in dribs and drabs throughout the BR era, peaking in the late 80s and early 90s before stopping completely after privatisation until the current spike, with the exception of a few miles as part of the WCRM.

 

[Robertj21a]

Oh come on... You don't still believe that do you

Well I certainly agree that HS2 won't help most of the East Midlands - why should it ? No use whatsoever for Leicester and Toton is neither here nor there for Derby and Nottingham.

 

[DarloRich]

I concur. It just seems such a shame that Network Rail are not capable of wiring up two routes at the same time.

It is just NR who cant do this. The entire industry is struggling to be able to allocate enough resources to the portfolio of projects.

There are problems with supply chain depth, supply chain performance, materials, man power, plant, equipment,access, experience etc etc.

 

[Senex]

NR doesn't have the resources to deliver the full set of projects, even if it had unlimited money.

So what was NR doing committing itself to this timetable in the first place?
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Lets just examine the precise words used in the announcement -


On the MML

"So work on electrification will be PAUSED.
I want it to be done and DONE WELL.
It WILL be part of our future plans for the route."

Nowhere does it say cancelled. Simply paused to look at costs to make it better.

But these are politicians, well used to the use of weasel words. You say it's paused today and then you quietly cancel it tomorrow. Or if you don't cancel it, you massively de-scope it and pretend it's the same scheme. Some of us still remember the "pause for review" in the EML electrification 50 years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

So what was NR doing committing itself to this timetable in the first place?
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But these are politicians, well used to the use of weasel words. You say it's paused today and then you quietly cancel it tomorrow. Or if you don't cancel it, you massively de-scope it and pretend it's the same scheme. Some of us still remember the "pause for review" in the EML electrification 50 years ago.

ask the secretary of state

 

[Senex]

Once you've paused a project its very easy to stop it all together. Simply because the funding for it has been transferred to the GWML and in the next five years the transport budget will be further slashed.

No-one has explained why the GW is the priority whilst the Midland is not (leaving aside the more complex case of Trans-Pennine for the moment). It is GW that is madly behind schedule and over budget and has been steadily getting worse. But, of course, to pause that for review would upset the Thames Valley commuters and the Welsh government and also give some problems for the dreadful IEP project.
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Ed, we've had our differences over the last couple of years but on this occasion I completely agree with you. Say good bye to any further electrification on conventional routes as the Government can't be bothered with the expense. Bravo!

You both put it beautifully -- I agree completely!
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I've always enjoyed my trips on the MML, HSTs in reasonable nick, the very decent Meridians, some line speed improvements and a far better frequency than it used to get, I certainly don't get the feeling that it's some sort of forgotten line when it comes to investment.

The Meridians are noisy for the passenger, like all DMUs, and very noisy indeed for those round about, like all the high-powered DMUs. I would also argue that the layout of the seating makes them disagreeable trains to travel in, but that is a feature of modern electric trains too.
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Well with the IEP journey time improvements on the East Coast and HS2 apparently going to gut the ECML Intercity traffic market you could always support many of the northern MML locations via the East Coast.

Run an IEP to Nottingham via Grantham or Sheffield via Retford. (Grantham looks to be dropping down to an hour or maybe even less).
The journey times should easily be competitive, even with some extra 125mph running on the MML.

Only if you're willing to invest in the infrastructure to provide a lot more capacity on the ECML, which doesn't really have enough space to meet the aspirations and needs of the places it already servces.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I recall Preston was merely a temporary changeover point while work continued north to Glasgow.
It went from Crewe to Glasgow as one project, AIUI.

Yes, it was authorised as a Weaver Jn to Glasgow scheme. But it was another example of a seriously de-scoped scheme. As originally planned it was to include the connections from Liverpool and Manchester to the WCML and I think also the line to Blackpool, and the layout at Preston was planned on the basis that there would be no need for regular locomotive changing. All these Lancashire extras were cut out, leaving Liverpool and Manchester to Scotland trains and London to Blackpool trains having to change locomotives on a layout never designed for this as a routine job, so very time-consuming and bad for the overall journey-times. Anyway, what we're seeing done in Lancashire now is to a large extent only what was seriously proposed in the late 1960s.

 

[lincolnshire]

And where does the BBC locate its reporter for this item on the Ten O'Cleck News? At Kings Cross-nothing to do with any of the projects affected.

Well even ITN News at Ten man was on Kings Cross side of the road looking across at St .Pancras looks like the bagged the best spot first for there report.

 

[class26]

No-one has explained why the GW is the priority whilst the Midland is not (leaving aside the more complex case of Trans-Pennine for the moment). It is GW that is madly behind schedule and over budget and has been steadily getting worse. But, of course, to pause that for review would upset the Thames Valley commuters and the Welsh government and also give some problems for the dreadful IEP project.
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Simple, theres lots of new trains being built NOW for the line. If its not ready it will be massively embarrassing. That`s why its prioritesed.

 

[infobleep]

There are clear signs "on the ground" of electrification work for electrification on the Great Western. OHLE supports have been put in along the route, and at locations such as Reading the wires have even been put up in the depot.

The Great Western has not had an upgrade in a significant amount of time. There has been considerable investment in railway lines serving the North in recent years and two of the three major main-lines from London are already electrified.

In terms of the fleet, trains for the Great Western have already started to be built. Three of the 10 in the DfT's overcrowding "league table" are on the Great Western.

Simply put, the projects are at completely different stages.

That means there are 7 not in Great Westerns Franchise? Does any other franchise have 3 or more in the list?

 

[lincolnshire]

So if we are going to build HS2 what type of rolling stock are we going to use on it then? as if we can,t get the suitably qualified staff and equipment to do the job of electrifying the railways now, how are they going to manage that then?

Think part of the problem is that Network Rail have too many staff who can talk a good job, but can,t get the job done on time and to budget or was the budget and time in reality too tight to achieve? or the fact that they don,t have the staff left who have the experience of that style of work anymore.

Well remember that back in British Rail days they electrified the East Coast mainline self funded from within there allocated budget, it might not been as reliable as it could be but at least they did it and its still working. Yes its been upgraded over the years, but at least they got the mast and wires up and there still in use years later.

It will be interesting to see what the report say when its published.

 

[petersi]

In ways the review could led to a much larger cut of smaller projects.
Particularly if it finds the skill base of network rail and it contractors is not deep enough to do the work.

If there is not the skill base could one see project that have not reached GRIP 4
Being Help back to CP6

 

[infobleep]

Here's the statement from East Midlands Trains on the cancellation of electrification:

https://twitter.com/tombarton/status/614112859623133184

I take its just the building that is paused and not the discussions about what to do and how to design the schemes? Will there still be money available for design the possible eventual schemes?

 

[47802]

No-one has explained why the GW is the priority whilst the Midland is not (leaving aside the more complex case of Trans-Pennine for the moment). It is GW that is madly behind schedule and over budget and has been steadily getting worse. But, of course, to pause that for review would upset the Thames Valley commuters and the Welsh government and also give some problems for the dreadful IEP project.
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Simple, theres lots of new trains being built NOW for the line. If its not ready it will be massively embarrassing. That`s why its prioritesed.

Why would you pause a project that is well advanced in favour of one that is barely started.

Why would pause a project where the rolling stock needs replacing, the replacement rolling stock is ordered, and will allow a much needed regional DMU cascade and isn't served by HS2, as opposed to a route that will be partly served by HS2 and has a considerable chunk of rolling stock which doesn't need replacing soon.

Oh and of course not forgetting that the busiest commuter section of the MML is electrified already, where as GWML isn't.

I have never herd such ridiculous nonsense in all my life.

 

[quantinghome]

So if we are going to build HS2 what type of rolling stock are we going to use on it then? as if we can,t get the suitably qualified staff and equipment to do the job of electrifying the railways now, how are they going to manage that then?

It will use the standard high speed rolling stock offered by the train manufacturers. It will also use smaller cross-section 'classic-compatible' high speed trains that can run on HS2 and the existing network. Both will be run from overhead lines.

Let's not misunderstand this. Network Rail and its supply chain are perfectly capable of electrifying lines. It's a question of scale. Evidently they have bitten off more than they can chew. As far as HS2 is concerned, building a new line is a very different proposition to the highly constrained working conditions on a live railway, so is far less problematic. See this blog for more details:

https://paulbigland.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/well-that-was-predictable/

 

[NSEFAN]

No-one has explained why the GW is the priority whilst the Midland is not (leaving aside the more complex case of Trans-Pennine for the moment). It is GW that is madly behind schedule and over budget and has been steadily getting worse. But, of course, to pause that for review would upset the Thames Valley commuters and the Welsh government and also give some problems for the dreadful IEP project.

I suggest you travel along the GWML, you will see the beginnings of masts appearing. During the summer the route from Swindon - Bristol via Bath will have several blockades as part of the project. Compare this with the MML, where nothing has been done and it's business as usual.

At this rate, IEP may well end up on the ECML first. Testing of the first units from Japan is currently underway overnight around Peterborough, in fact.

 

[HSTEd]

Only if you're willing to invest in the infrastructure to provide a lot more capacity on the ECML, which doesn't really have enough space to meet the aspirations and needs of the places it already servces.

Once HS2 reduces ECML traffic to 2tph Leeds and 1tph York [maybe with a handful of Lincolns], all stopping all ICEC stations (Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster.......) then there will be space for an hourly train for Nottingham and one for Sheffield.

 

[38Cto15E]

Straightening the track out at Market Harborough, what would that save, 30 seconds?
Derby improvements maybe would save 60 seconds.

Is there a diagram of the Market Harborough proposed improvemnets?
TIA

 

[Mikey C]

A few times the first class hosts have moaned about them the HST as they struggle to pour the coffee. I am a fan of HST but they have gone downhill recently. Meridians are dreadful trains. As for speed 1hr 43 mins from Nottingham to London is slow when compared to other lines.

London to Cardiff is over 2 hours, Exeter 2hr 12 fastest, so I don't think Nottingham (even allowing for the slightly shorter distance) is that bad

Personally, I don't find the underfloor noise of the 222s that bad, they're far quieter than Turbostars, and the ride is smother than the Mk 4s on the ECML!

 

[Senex]

Straightening the track out at Market Harborough, what would that save, 30 seconds?
Derby improvements maybe would save 60 seconds.

Is there a diagram of the Market Harborough proposed improvemnets?
TIA

It would be very interesting to see a diagram of what is proposed now. The 1980s scheme that got as far as getting rid of the riding school etc before it was pulled involved coming into MH from the south on the existing curve but then straightening out in the platform to pass in front of the new buildings that had been aligned to allow this. The line would have continued straight so as to bring it on to the old LNW formation and it would then have continued on this to the old Great Bowden Jn where it would have picked up the original Midland alignment (latterly sidings) to stay at ground level and render the 1880s flyover bridge (with its 85-mph speed limit) redundant. It would have re-joined the Midland where Great Bowden Sidings used to join the later main line. Speed would have been 90 on the curve into the station and then (at that time) 100 -- presumably more when the line-speed was raised later.

From what has been reported so far of the present scheme it rather sounds as if the part of the earlier plans that involved going back to the original Midland alignment and eliminating the flyover bridge have been dropped.

 

[matacaster]

I predict that when they actually study the budgets and costs in detail, HS2 will be reduced to what it always was intended to be a new Birmingham to London commuter route. Take out those commuter trains from WCML and capacity is freed up. The only reason HS2 was suggested to go further north was to placate northerners who felt that it was all about London again.

HS3 also will meet its demise in due course. Consider that the pennines are hard rock, not soft London clay, that means big tunnelling costs. Of the existing tunnels, Standedge is the most promising as it is direct and points broadly in the right direction (though still not perfectly orientated), Woodhead is really pointing in the wrong direction, Summit might be ok but the lines from the east are twisting all over the place. A new tunnel would be prodigiously expensive. The problem for HS3 is that the journey between Leeds and Manchester takes circa 1 hour. If you work in Leeds or Manchester, it'll likely take you more time to get to / from the stations from your office than the 25 minutes they HOPE to save on your train journey. Note that Huddersfield would likely NOT be a stop on HS3 and its a rather important commuter place in the north being equidistant between Leeds and Manchester.

The easiest way to save say 5 minutes on the current journey between Manchester and Leeds is simply to cut out the Huddersfield stop on say one train an hour - no investment needed at all, unless the through lines at Huddersfield would need reinstating, but I doubt that is necessary. Huddersfield would only suffer mild inconvenience by losing one service an hour. Longer journeys like Liverpool to Newcastle are more likely students than business travelers and they are cost rather than time conscious travelers, so saving a few minutes isn't going to make much difference.

 

[The Planner]

How does one stop save 5 minutes? You would get 2 at best.