Third Class: Would re-introduction be a good idea?

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!
For some time now, I've been thinking that a reintroduction of third class on NR services would be a good idea. Mainly because second class fares nowadays are pretty high for those of us from low-income backgrounds (I'm on benefits due to a disability), but also I think it'd be nice to have an "Economy" standard of service for those who don't mind enduring a Ryanair-style environment whilst saving a few quid.

Obviously, the provision of actual third class sections or carriages would be a real pain in the ass for TOCs to introduce, and that'd be an unreasonable expectation to make of most TOCs anyway...But here are a few pointers I've come up with that'd make the reintroduction of third a real doddle in my opinion:

• Passengers would still travel in standard class accommodation, on the understanding that priority in seating goes to those with standard class tickets at all times. No third class passenger would be allowed to occupy a seat whilst there are holders of standard class tickets standing.
• In the event of a service becoming overcrowded, third class passengers would be required - Upon a Guards' request over the PA - To make space by alighting from that train at the next station and continuing their journey on subsequent services.
• Weekend First and other ticket "add ons" (Including excessing a ticket) would not be available to third class passengers.
• To keep the fare structure simple, third class tickets would be valid on any train along a permitted route. There'd be no booking passengers onto specific services, and therefore the tickets would function much like a normal Saver or Open.
• For simplicity, only singles and returns would be available. Railcard, Priv and child discounts would be applied as normal, subject to a minimum fare payable.

Obviously, where rules would be put in place for this (Such as the "Alighting overcrowded trains" rule) those rules would be enforced in the National Conditions of Carriage, and normal penalty fares would be levied for non-compliance.

Personally, I think that this could be a good thing to bring back in, especially as it might make rail travel much more attractive to a wider range of people if the extra discounts were good enough.
Also...When travelling anywhere on a Pendolino or HST, I often stand in one of the vestibules for the length of my journey anyway as the feeling of speed is a little greater when standing, and I can listen to my MP3 player without disturbing other passengers as well...So I wouldn't mind being able to knock the cost of my journeys down a bit when there wouldn't be any real difference for me anyway!

So...Do ye think this is a good idea or not? Please discuss...
>> Death <<

 

[NSEFAN]

It sounds like a good idea for busy services, but it would make little difference on quieter trains.

And we'd probably be expected to call it something like "Budget class" so as not to risk offending anyone.

 

[jopsuk]

Isn't 3rd class what's already available on most packed commuter trains? I'd even say that 1st class on a lot of commuter trains (I'm thinking 317s, networkers etc) is barely up to the standards of, say, standard class on most Scotrail (non-strathclyde at least) trains...

 

[Z12XE]

Isn't 3rd class what's already available on most packed commuter trains?

The seating on on the Silverlink 313s or 142s with bus seating could be considered a lower standard than most other standard class seating!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Isn't megatrain basically third class?

 

[Kneedown]

It already seems like third class up our way a lot of the time! Perhaps if we we fitted a few old cattle trucks with BSI couplings and tagged them on the end of a 158 we could have a fourth class?

 

[vc-10]

Not sure the EU would like that much...

MegaTrain is basicaly SWT's cheapo advance ticketing isn't it? I use FGW's advance all the time. Means I can go in first class, for less than a standard 'cheap day' ticket, which I like.

The problem with having a new '3rd class' would be that it would be hard to police. It could be possible on long distance trains (HSTs, Pendos etc) with many coaches, as one coach could have commuter style 5 abrest seating. You'd have to pre reserve, so that the train company don't loose all their revenue as everyone starts buying cheap tickets. Could be very useful on the FGW services to Bristol, they're basically commuter trains anyway

 

[Jim]

Isn't megatrain basically third class?

No, it's normal Standard Seats with lower cost....

 

[TDK]

It already seems like third class up our way a lot of the time! Perhaps if we we fitted a few old cattle trucks with BSI couplings and tagged them on the end of a 158 we could have a fourth class?

A cattle truck on the rear of a 158 would be 1st class surely

 

[P156KWJ]

an FCC 319 is already 3rd class :roll:
it'd be a good idea, I'd do it from, say, Charing Cross to Charlton at a limit, cos I'd imagine they'd be pretty uncomfy. (The reason I chose out of London routes was because that'd be all they're useful for, we need to concentrate on standard class standards (no pun intended) on existing units)

 

[Kneedown]

A cattle truck on the rear of a 158 would be 1st class surely

Hmmmmmmmm. You're right. Substitute "HAA" for "cattle truck" :grin:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure the EU would like that much...

If you knew me, then you'd know that the warmth of my feeling towards the EU, or "New Soviet Union" as i like to put it, is at Nought Kelvin, or Absolute Zero, and i don't give a hoot what they think! 8)

 

[P156KWJ]

Hmmmmmmmm. You're right. Substitute "HAA" for "cattle truck" :grin:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you knew me, then you'd know that the warmth of my feeling towards the EU, or "New Soviet Union" as i like to put it, is at Nought Kelvin, or Absolute Zero, and i don't give a hoot what they think! 8)

substitute a full TDA and it'd be better hock:

 

[me123]

I'm not fond of the idea. People would purchase the cheaper fare to save money, but may then be delayed quite heavily on their journey. Introdcing a lower fare bracket I'm sure would cause an upset amongst the lower paid people, who would probably call it discrimination.

Also, think about the logistics. Let's say everyone's booted off at station X, and the next train is in an hour. More 3rd class passengers would turn up in the hour and may not be permitted to boeard the next train and so the people on the platform increases exponentially! Not good for Health and Safety...

Also, 2nd class passengers may not be able to find a seat anyway, so what would they be paying extra for?

Finally, I don't believe it is correct to pay a supplement for a seat (I support free seat reservations); and in this case the supplement won't even guarantee a seat!

 

[djw1981]

The problem is that the 3rd class carriages would need to be of the same quality of the others in order to travel at the same speed. Thus you could not put a 142 on the rear of a HST, because the HST would be limited to Pacer speed......

The only train currently to have 3 classes IMO is the Caledonian Sleeper
FC sleeper
SC sleeper
Seated sleeper - no bed, no lounge car, just a toilet (although it does have FC style reclining seats.... - in the carriage, not the toilet)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In theory great idea, in practice it would just push the price of first and standard class tickets up to an even higher level with little reduction for the third class.

Have you thought about adding a roof rack for them to sit in?

 

[yorkie]

The problem is that the 3rd class carriages would need to be of the same quality of the others in order to travel at the same speed. Thus you could not put a 142 on the rear of a HST, because the HST would be limited to Pacer speed......

The only train currently to have 3 classes IMO is the Caledonian Sleeper
FC sleeper
SC sleeper
Seated sleeper - no bed, no lounge car, just a toilet (although it does have FC style reclining seats.... - in the carriage, not the toilet)

It is not uncommon to be treated like a 3rd class person if you are on seated sleeper and go to the buffet, particularly if a certain rude slob on the Fort William sleeper is on duty. Ironically, some people were upgraded to berths due to a fault with the Mk2 seating coach and he went from treating those people like scum to treating them like royalty. Figure that one out...

 

[djw1981]

When I was on the seated sleeper the other year (2003) I were forbidden to go to the buffet, and were told that as I had 'only' paid £19 I wasn't allowed it. I had been up for 64 hours by that point so hadn't the energy to argue...

 

[gingerheid]

I think it would be an unnecessary complication. I don't see what's to take away from the current standard to make it a third class. A FGW HD HST is about as low as it goes!

I think the ideas stated would be totally unenforceable in reality. Who is going to be able to check who's standing and who isn't? Especially in a busy train.

 

[me123]

When I was on the seated sleeper the other year (2003) I were forbidden to go to the buffet, and were told that as I had 'only' paid £19 I wasn't allowed it. I had been up for 64 hours by that point so hadn't the energy to argue...

Their loss: they're the ones losing revenue!!!:roll:

 

[djw1981]

Indeed, instead since we were at Euston still, I went and got a Bk and munched it on their train! Juvenile yes, but it made me feel good (after 64hrs awake, anything makes you feel better, especially food and sleep, and waking up to see Cumbrian fells with mist and a gorgeous sunrise...

 

[Kneedown]

Have you thought about adding a roof rack for them to sit in?

Experimental roof rack for fitting to 153's and 158's currently undergoing trials on EMT!

 

[djw1981]

Hmmm roofrack could be an issue - repeated announcements of ' we are now joining an electrified line, please do not stand up'!

 

[jopsuk]

Stuck me this morning on the way to work, on a 317 with the "First Class" area the middle of the non motor, non driving trailer car, with no vestibule doors and no tables, that the seats in that section appear to just be the same seats as in Standard Class on a non-refurbished HST/loco hualed mark 3 set, complete with fixed arm rests. What a swizz!

 

[vc-10]

Isn't that standard suburban first class? It's the same on the Turdos.

 

[Kneedown]

Hmmm roofrack could be an issue - repeated announcements of ' we are now joining an electrified line, please do not stand up'!

Mk2 version to incorporate a Faraday Cage! :grin:

 

[jopsuk]

Isn't that standard suburban first class? It's the same on the Turdos.

Think it is. Some of them (with 1st class at the end) have vestibule doors and tables, and I think different (though still 2+2) seats.

Which I reckon shows that we already do have more than two classes in operation already. You've got Intercity 1st Class, with 2+1 seats and usually at seat complimentary drinks at the top tier, a second tier with Suburban 1st and Intercity Standard giving the same seats, space and service, and Suburban Standard meaning often 2+3 seating. Yet, obviously, suburban 1st costs a lot more than Intercity 1st over the same length of journey...

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

mmm, a 142 at 125mph... surely it would be flying along with the wheels not really touching the rails... so the ride might not be that bad!!

 

[djw1981]

It would be a cross between a roller coaster and a cure for constipation!

 

[yorkie]

jopsuk has said exactly what I was thinking. There are three 'classes', just not branded as such.

It is correct that standard on InterCity trains is roughly equivalent (indeed identical in the example given with the HSTs/317s) to first on many outer suburban trains.

It's just that no trains actually convey all three classes at once.

I guess you could call it "simplification" pretending that there are just two

And we all know what "simplification" means - yep, that's right - increasing the costs for the passengers. If the TOCs admitted there were 3 classes they would be forced to allow a Std class passenger from Peterborough to London to be able to sit in the same high standard seat at no extra cost if they got a 317 than if they got a HST. But we can't be having that can we....

 

[metrocammel]

When I was on the seated sleeper the other year (2003) I were forbidden to go to the buffet, and were told that as I had 'only' paid £19 I wasn't allowed it. I had been up for 64 hours by that point so hadn't the energy to argue...

Seated Sleeper for £19???
That sounds like a Bargain Berth price?- The 'seated' fares are generally far higher than that. If so, there is a 'rule' on fSR that if you are in a berth, but on a standard class (or bargain berth) ticket, you must not occupy a seat in the lounge car if there is a first class passenger without a seat. It is also labelled in the lounge car that it is '1st class' accommodation. I'm sure that you would not be banned from going into the 'buffet hatch' area if you were in seated, as the hatch is designed for the seated pax- though I'm sure are no / haven't been any fares as cheap as £19 for seated accommodation.