Lime Street to West Brompton route

[trainophile]

My ticket was just rejected at Euston as I went through the gate for the Willesden Junction (Watford Junction) train. The guy on the gate told me I should have gone via Milton Keynes, but he let me through.

Just checked on VTEC site for same journey tomorrow, without entering any via point, and it's giving me the same route as today, changing at Euston and Willesden Junction. What's he on about and why was my ticket rejected at the barriers?

 

[Romilly]

Precisely what ticket did you have?

 

[trainophile]

First Class Advance, VTWC & connections, Booked train only. Liverpool stations to West Brompton.

 

[Kristofferson]

I guess the ticket expects you to take the Southern service down the WLL. Pront the route off next time - although the routing engine may be wrong.

 

[cookie365]

Presumably you had a seat reservation all the way through to Euston?

 

[adam9413]

How can you change at Milton Keynes if the Liverpool train doesn't stop there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can you change at Milton Keynes if the Liverpool train doesn't stop there?

LM to Crewe then a VT that stops. But I guess here this was an incorrect issue with a double-back - or is there an easement?

 

[Romilly]

But I guess here this was an incorrect issue with a double-back - or is there an easement?

As this was an Advance ticket, if it is priced with an itinerary that involves a double-back, is that not the end of the matter? (Assuming of course that into Euston on mainline trains, then out on Overground, is a double-back.)

For what it's worth, the prices seem to be the same whether or not the itinerary is via Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As this was an Advance ticket, if it is priced with an itinerary that involves a double-back, is that not the end of the matter?

From a passenger's point of view yes, though if it *is* wrong arguably it should be withdrawn for investigation and a free replacement issued.

 

[trainophile]

No-one would choose to go on LM to Crewe for the same price as going direct to Euston would they? Besides, I'd have missed out on my sojourn in the Lounge at Lime Street, not to mention my bacon roll!

Got the same route for going back on Weds so I'll be prepared for ticket problems on the London barriers.

I can't be the first person to do this route. Something a bit strange going on.

Where did I double back?

 

[bb21]

You are doubling back at Willesden Junction I imagine, but it can be argued that you are not doubling back anywhere as the WCML doesn't pass the station because the station is on the DC Line.

Not relevant anyway in my opinion as the normal Routeing Guide is not necessarily in consideration for APs.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks bb21. So are you saying that in your opinion it's a valid route, or is it an anomaly in the booking system, that will mean I can't book this journey once it has been corrected, i.e. removed?

 

[bb21]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

 

[trainophile]

I can't see what's wrong with it either, and if it was just the guy on the gate I'd have assumed he had made a mistake, but because the barrier also rejected my ticket I thought I'd ask the question.

How unusual, a railway ticketing anomaly .

 

[Andrew1395]

You are doubling back at Willesden Junction I imagine, but it can be argued that you are not doubling back anywhere as the WCML doesn't pass the station because the station is on the DC Line.

Not relevant anyway in my opinion as the normal Routeing Guide is not necessarily in consideration for APs.

That's not how double backs work. Willesden Junction is a routeing point. I think journey planners provide an itinary either change at Milton Keynes or go to Euston as the condition of the route is met. Ie on VWC and then a connecting service. The route is only used on Advance fares as far as I know. All Walk up fares are any permitted.

 

[bb21]

Excuse me, but what is not how doublebacks work?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If you arrived at Euston intending to travel to West Brompton, surely the logical route is to use the Circle and District Lines, or even the Northern and Piccadilly to Earls Court and then the District?

Perhaps a split ticket is needed if the route planners don't suggest this natural route.

Is the West Brompton advance ticket cheaper than the Euston one?

 

[Paul Kelly]

You are doubling back at Willesden Junction I imagine, but it can be argued that you are not doubling back anywhere as the WCML doesn't pass the station because the station is on the DC Line.

I've been wondering about this too. Could another possible explanation be this: "LONDON" is one of the routeing map options for Liverpool Group to Willesden Junction. The Routeing Guide says If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey. Could it be, that any doublebacks between the "to London" and "from London" legs of the journey are therefore OK?

There is a nice logic to this, but I don't like the sound of it as it implies you must go via London when travelling on a "LONDON" map combination, which is something I've been arguing against for several years!

Not relevant anyway in my opinion as the normal Routeing Guide is not necessarily in consideration for APs.

FWIW I disagree with this. From a passenger's point of view it's not so relevant given there is an itinerary that must be followed, but journey planners certainly use the Routeing Guide when generating an itinerary on which an advance fare may be used.

 

[Andrew1395]

Excuse me, but what is not how doublebacks work?

Saying that the Virgin fast lines at Willesden count as passing through Willesden Junction once, before returning on the DC lines.

 

[greatkingrat]

The routeing guide maps show only one route between Watford Junction and Euston, which passes through Willesden Junction. So if the main lines don't pass through Willesden Junction, that implies they are not a permitted route for any journey (unless the shortest route / through train).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Presumably you had a seat reservation all the way through to Euston?

I would think the route could be validated by showing the reservation.

 

[trainophile]

I would think the route could be validated by showing the reservation.

Sorry I never answered the question yesterday and I've been out all day today. Yes my seat reservation was from Lime Street to Euston on Virgin Trains West Coast and connections. He let me through with a bit of a grumble so I didn't need to show any further validation, but good idea about showing the seat res. if he'd been awkward.

Going back tomorrow and was wondering whether I can take earlier trains from West Brompton and Willesden Junction, as the prescribed timings only give me 17 mins at Euston which might be a bit tight and certainly won't give me time to go in the Lounge. Would 45 minutes early from WBP count as an appropriate connection?

 

[Andrew1395]

The Advance part of the ticket you have to abide by is the train/seat reserved as part of your transaction. No reason why you cannot travel to Euston earlier - You just have to use the Virgin train you are reserved on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The routeing guide maps show only one route between Watford Junction and Euston, which passes through Willesden Junction. So if the main lines don't pass through Willesden Junction, that implies they are not a permitted route for any journey (unless the shortest route / through train).

I am sure you are right, but there is no Willesden junction station on the West Coast mainline, it closed 50 years ago. So the definition of a routeing point must be wider than a station. If that is the case how many other routeing points are not stations?

 

[trainophile]

Didn't have to test it out as due to a broken down train on the Stratford line I ended up getting to Euston by tube. Lucky I left very early so I arrived with an hour to spare.

Needless to say my ticket didn't work the Underground barriers, but there were staff around who let me through with no problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure you are right, but there is no Willesden junction station on the West Coast mainline, it closed 50 years ago. So the definition of a routeing point must be wider than a station. If that is the case how many other routeing points are not stations?

The question is - is it on the WCML or not (i.e. is the WCML 6-track at that point, or is it two separate railways?). I don't think the presence of a platform on the fast lines anywhere else determines whether it is a double-back or not, just whether it is considered the same line.

Is whether it is considered a double-back perhaps simply whether it is possible to do the journey without one? Carnforth is arguably not a double-back if travelling from the north, but Euxton Balshaw Lane arguably is.

 

[adrock1976]

How I interpret things regarding the platforms is that yes, there are no platforms at Willesden Junction that are in use on the original London & Birmingham Railway tracks.

However, the present day DC line was constructed by the later London & North Western Railway, of which the L & BR along with the Grand Junction, Liverpool & Manchester, North Union, Lancaster & Carlisle, etc.

Furthermore, it is not possible to travel on a direct Intercity service to Willesden Junction, due to there being no platforms on the original London & Birmingham Railway metals. So, in other words, I would have the view that it is not a doubleback at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Furthermore, it is not possible to travel on a direct Intercity service to Willesden Junction, due to there being no platforms on the original London & Birmingham Railway metals. So, in other words, I would have the view that it is not a doubleback at all.

It isn't possible to travel on a direct InterCity service to Harrow and Wealdstone either, you would need to change at MKC/WFJ. There are platforms, but nothing ever stops there except on diversions. I'm not convinced that makes any difference.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I ended up getting to Euston by tube.

The TfL planner always shows one of the several routes by Underground as the fastest. The National Rail planner shows the via Willesden Junction route as well as the via Clapham Junction and Underground at a higher price. Both take at least twenty minutes longer than the routes through Central London.

But how do you persuade the ticket engines to route you that way on an advance fare?

 

[hassaanhc]

The TfL planner always shows one of the several routes by Underground as the fastest. The National Rail planner shows the via Willesden Junction route as well as the via Clapham Junction and Underground at a higher price. Both take at least twenty minutes longer than the routes through Central London.

But how do you persuade the ticket engines to route you that way on an advance fare?

Destination needs to be "ZONE U12* LONDN" as the plain West Brompton ticket does not allow use of LUL.

 

[John @ home]

due to a broken down train on the Stratford line I ended up getting to Euston by tube.

Destination needs to be "ZONE U12* LONDN" as the plain West Brompton ticket does not allow use of LUL.

The West Brompton ticket does allow the use of London Underground when National Rail tickets are being accepted on London Underground due to a broken down train on the Stratford line.