Sheffield to London via Leighton Buzzard

[button_boxer]

I need to travel to London in a couple of weeks for work. I'd like if possible to travel out via a brief stopover at Leighton Buzzard to drop off a parcel with a friend, and return to Sheffield a couple of days later.

There is a £54 "LM & XC" return ticket on which booking engines will give me a route via Tamworth and LBZ, but annoyingly the restriction code bars break of journey on the outward portion. The regular "via Chesterfield" ticket at £74 does not have the BoJ restriction (and would allow me to return via the faster MML route), but booking engines won't give me an XC/LM itinerary on this fare.

Is Tamworth not normally a permitted route for Sheffield to London? Any ideas what ticket(s) I could buy to allow this? Bear in mind that I'm basically looking for straight point to point tickets or simple splits rather than loopholes, as it's a work trip on expenses and I need to be able to justify whatever tickets I'm buying in a way that the finance department will understand...

Approximate itinerary:

30th June late afternoon Sheffield - Leighton Buzzard, one or two hours stopover then continue to London (my eventual destination is Denmark Hill but I can do the last leg from St P on Oyster).

2nd July 18:00 or later London - Sheffield via any reasonable route, could be LM&XC, MML direct, or east coast line via Retford or Doncaster. Earliest possible departure from Denmark Hill will be 17:30.

 

[yorkie]

Is Tamworth not normally a permitted route for Sheffield to London?

It was "reasonable" under BR (it doesn't undercut fares, and the extra distance via Tamworth is negligible and indeed less than the extra distance via Doncaster), but then ceased to be a permitted route for no known reason, it then became permitted again and was withdrawn after Virgin Trains threw a wobbler and managed to get ATOC to withdraw all permitted routes other than via the MML. East Coast objected to the withdrawal of routes via Doncaster and these were reinstated. LM and XC also objected but only succeeded in getting an easement to allow their LM+XC tickets to be valid via Tamworth.

It's a ridiculous situation.

I suggest you invoke the disputed route procedure.

I believe a forum member has been complaining about this matter, I'm not sure where he has got to, but last I heard the DfT and Transport Focus were not being as helpful as they should be, so I think the ORR need to be the next port of call.

 

[34D]

but then ceased to be a permitted route for no known reason, it then became permitted again

With respect, and as you are well aware, this was due to members of this forum finding a loophole ticket from Sheffield to Kent and some members using said loophole ticket via the WCML.

 

[button_boxer]

Hmm, I wonder if this might be possible on the £76.40 "via Derby" off-peak return from Sheffield to Leighton Buzzard, using the outward portion via Tamworth and the return portion via London (breaking my return journey in London for a couple of days)? I can't get a booking engine to offer me LBZ-SHF via London on that ticket but I can get it on the "+via Chesterfield" one at £95.70, which suggests it is a permitted route - I don't need the underground validity given by the Maltese cross.

 

[Hadders]

With respect, and as you are well aware, this was due to members of this forum finding a loophole ticket from Sheffield to Kent and some members using said loophole ticket via the WCML.

It wasn't a loophole ticket. There was nothing 'loophole' at all about the routeings used by that ticket.

The error was the price of the ticket with the TOC setting the price at £8.60 instead of £88.60, iirc.

 

[30907]

Hmm, I wonder if this might be possible on the £76.40 "via Derby" off-peak return from Sheffield to Leighton Buzzard, using the outward portion via Tamworth and the return portion via London (breaking my return journey in London for a couple of days)? I can't get a booking engine to offer me LBZ-SHF via London on that ticket but I can get it on the "+via Chesterfield" one at £95.70, which suggests it is a permitted route - I don't need the underground validity given by the Maltese cross.

But you do need the ticket to LBZ to be valid via London on the return, and it's not unreasonable for the cheaper fare to prohibit this, given the relative mileages. A change of route excess would split the difference, IIRC.

Pending the disputed route procedure, wouldn't it be just as simple to use the bus from Luton to LBZ and back?

 

[button_boxer]

Pending the disputed route procedure, wouldn't it be just as simple to use the bus from Luton to LBZ and back?

Interesting, I hadn't considered that option. It looks like about 45 minutes each way which compares favourably with the train to LBZ, particularly if I can catch the direct 16:29 from Sheffield to Luton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a £54 "LM & XC" return ticket on which booking engines will give me a route via Tamworth and LBZ, but annoyingly the restriction code bars break of journey on the outward portion.

If cost is the most important consideration and your friend could meet you on the platform (LBZ is not barriered) could you perhaps consider that option anyway? If you do not leave the station premises you have not broken your journey; break of journey restrictions on walk-up tickets do not prevent you from changing trains as many times as you happen to feel like. Or if you really did want to leave the station you could buy a second ticket to London from LBZ. (I don't think it is seen that a BoJ restriction on a walk-up ticket also bars ending short; in my view it just means once you have exited the station the ticket has lost any further value).

You could even buy a coffee from the station coffee kiosk and chat in the foyer for a short while if you wanted a catch-up.

 

[button_boxer]

Cost isn't the most important consideration, rather that whatever I buy will get past finance as a justifiable expense for a Sheffield to London return trip. The bus from Luton idea is probably the easiest but I wouldn't be able to claim the bus fare, whereas a ticket allowing BoJ at LBZ would allow me to stop off at no extra cost. For the £5.40 Luton to LBZ return bus fare it'd be cheaper to post the parcel...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cost isn't the most important consideration, rather that whatever I buy will get past finance as a justifiable expense for a Sheffield to London return trip. The bus from Luton idea is probably the easiest but I wouldn't be able to claim the bus fare, whereas a ticket allowing BoJ at LBZ would allow me to stop off at no extra cost. For the £5.40 Luton to LBZ return bus fare it'd be cheaper to post the parcel...

Is travel within work hours? If so, surely the only "valid" route is direct, as otherwise you are using too much work time for personal ends?

If not, I reckon the LM ticket might well do the job as your friend could meet you at the station thus meaning a brief stop there for handover and a chat isn't BoJ at all. BoJ does not occur unless you leave Railway premises - the often confusing line "break of journey is not permitted except to join connecting services" refers to walking out of a station to get to another for a connection.

 

[bb21]

I believe the £74 Via Chesterfield ticket is perfectly valid via Tamworth, regardless of other permitted routes on the ticket, provided that you only travel on XC and LM services, by virtual of it being a cheaper route. There is no need to invoke the disputed route procedure.

In the worst case scenario, an excess would be chargeable, which would be ... to the "LM AND XC ONLY" fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe the £74 Via Chesterfield ticket is perfectly valid via Tamworth, regardless of other permitted routes on the ticket, provided that you only travel on XC and LM services, by virtual of it being a cheaper route.

Does that work where the cheaper route is TOC specific? (Genuine question, I don't know).

 

[bb21]

Does that work where the cheaper route is TOC specific? (Genuine question, I don't know).

The way I understand it is that the reason behind allowing a more expensive ticket to be automatically valid on a cheaper route is to eliminate the need for a zero-fare change of route excess (which does not alter revenue distribution of the original ticket) to be issued, unnecessarily in most cases.

A TOC-specific ticket can be excessed to, so I see no reason why it would not apply.

If it were the other way round (ie. effectively requiring a TOC-specific ticket to be excessed from) I may be less confident, depending on the specific circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

With respect, and as you are well aware, this was due to members of this forum finding a loophole ticket from Sheffield to Kent and some members using said loophole ticket via the WCML.

If the only reason Virgin Trains did not want people to travel via Tamworth was because there was a week or two when the tickets were incorrectly priced, then that would not appear to be a valid reason for getting a routeing, that was previously valid under BR's reasonable rule, to be withdrawn.

Furthermore, by the time Virgin Trains got the route (illegally) withdrawn, the error had been fixed and hundreds of people had already bought the tickets at the lower price, and those tickets remained valid as per the terms of the contract at the time of sale.

And finally, if the only reason Virgin Trains did not want people to travel via Tamworth was because there was a week or two when the tickets were incorrectly priced, now the price is correct - and significantly higher than fares from Tamworth to London/Kent - surely there is no reason why they should continue to object to the validity via Tamworth?

 

[34D]

It wasn't a loophole ticket. There was nothing 'loophole' at all about the routeings used by that ticket.

The error was the price of the ticket with the TOC setting the price at £8.60 instead of £88.60, iirc.

The people taking advantage of this mistake (specifically those starting short on the WCML) brought the issue to the fore.

 

[clagmonster]

In the worst case scenario, an excess would be chargeable, which would be ... to the "LM AND XC ONLY" fare.

However, if Button_Boxer actually does need to break his journey, rather than just visit Leighton Buzzard station, that LM AND XC ONLY fare would surely be the SOR, priced at £151.00.

 

[bb21]

However, if Button_Boxer actually does need to break his journey, rather than just visit Leighton Buzzard station, that LM AND XC ONLY fare would surely be the SOR, priced at £151.00.

If you consider the OP to be breaking his journey using the terms of the £74 ticket, and utilising the rule on the ticket being valid on a cheaper route, then break of journey restriction on the £54 ticket is irrelevant.

If you consider that the excess fare is a necessary part of the process, then it could be argued that an excess fare is payable to the £151 fare.

Personally I believe the former interpretation is correct, as it is utilising an existing rule. I only mentioned the involvement of excess fares to explain how the rule came about, but once it becomes an official rule, I see no need to give consideration to the process it was derived from in the application of the rule.

It is probably an issue never really thought about when the Routeing Guide was first written.

 

[Starmill]

With respect, and as you are well aware, this was due to members of this forum finding a loophole ticket from Sheffield to Kent and some members using said loophole ticket via the WCML.

There was a period of time (about a week) for which London Midland & CrossCountry tickets were essentially off sale, because the interference by other industry bodies caused there to be no permitted routes along which these services travelled! Does that sound like a healthy business to you?

Walk-up tickets by this route are highly likely to be accepted via Birmingham, as this permits significantly more (and later!) journey opportunities, and I firmly believe both TOCs cooked this deal up with this as the intention (if you did not, feel free and let us know!). It's just that they can't define Sheffield to London via Birmingham as "allowed so long as you don't use Virgin Trains" - which is what they wanted
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The people taking advantage of this mistake (specifically those starting short on the WCML) brought the issue to the fore.

How do you know it was a mistake? It was never acknowledged as such. For all you know it could have been a special offer, the publicity for which went awry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just that they can't define Sheffield to London via Birmingham as "allowed so long as you don't use Virgin Trains"

You *could* using an easement.