Are ticket barriers beneficial?

[richieb1971]

Quite a lot of the time the station personnel just leave them open, at least when I'm exiting the station.

There are some really big stations that have none at all.

If all you have to do to get on is to say your a train enthusiast with a camera round your neck I'm assuming anyone can get away with it.

A guy at Bletchley stopped me entering the station at 07:00 because I had a off peak ticket, but all I wanted to do was film trains whilst waiting for my train. So annoying. :roll:

I believe all stations should be barrier free. Rail enthusiasts should be able to apply for a pass which gets them through the barrier.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[TimG]

I'm guessing where major stations don't have them it's due to building design more than anything else.

The only thing that really annoys me about barriers is when they seem to be set up to deliberately reject valid tickets and are insufficient staffed...

At Brighton they are set up to reject railcard tickets leading to long queues and pushing..

 

[NSEFAN]

Barriers are good when properly managed, and they are in my view appropriate for major stations and stations on urban or suburban networks, although retro-fitting them may be impractical in some cases without major work to the station. I don't think as enthusiasts we have much right to complain in being denied entry to platforms without a valid ticket, although it is nice when discretion is shown.

 

[CC 72100]

Quite a lot of the time the station personnel just leave them open, at least when I'm exiting the station.

There are some really big stations that have none at all.

If all you have to do to get on is to say your a train enthusiast with a camera round your neck I'm assuming anyone can get away with it.

A guy at Bletchley stopped me entering the station at 07:00 because I had a off peak ticket, but all I wanted to do was film trains whilst waiting for my train. So annoying. :roll:

I believe all stations should be barrier free. Rail enthusiasts should be able to apply for a pass which gets them through the barrier.

Just a few thoughts.

What would you propose as alternative revenue protection strategies?

The problem is not barriers, it is poorly managed/ operated barriers.

I also do not understand the rail enthusiast sense of entitlement that was the impression that I got from your post.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There is no reason at all why rail enthusiasts should be allowed to pass through the barriers unless they've bought a train ticket. Why not just go to a station where there are no barriers?

 

[talldave]

If you want to get on a platform, buy a ticket.

 

[richieb1971]

If some stations have them and some do not, then how do the stations that do not have them protect themselves from fair dodging?

I don't feel entitled to anything. Most stations let you on and do your thing without any further hassle.. you just ask, and you receive.

 

[LexyBoy]

Beneficial to whom?

To me, as a passenger, the answer is no: they are an annoyance (one could say a "barrier").

On my commute, not such a problem, it just means queueing behind the hordes of people trying to get through 2 gates at Didcot. On leisure travel, it's more annoying: walk up to barrier, put drink/food on side of gate, put bags down, put child down, get ticket out, put ticket through, take ticket out, reverse procedure and walk through.

To a TOC, presumably they do boost revenue otherwise why do it? (Though whether it's by enough to employ an extra 2-3 staff to man 4 gates as in Didcot is another question).

 

[Bletchleyite]

On leisure travel, it's more annoying: walk up to barrier, put drink/food on side of gate, put bags down, put child down, get ticket out, put ticket through, take ticket out, reverse procedure and walk through.

Ever thought of having your ticket ready before getting to the gate? They sit in the palm of your hand quite nicely.

 

[jopsuk]

At one time BR gated off the platforms at major stations- the old lattice type gates- with manuaul ticket checks. Then there was an "open stations" initiative that saw those swept away. Now we've got (mainly) automatic ticket barriers- though the Intercity platforms at Euston stick with manual checks.

 

[CC 72100]

If some stations have them and some do not, then how do the stations that do not have them protect themselves from fair dodging?

I don't feel entitled to anything. Most stations let you on and do your thing without any further hassle.. you just ask, and you receive.

By one-off revenue blocks, regular on-trail checking and the possibility of purchasing a ticket at the barrier line at their destination if their origin station did not have ticket purchasing facilities. Barriers are not a sole solution, and alone would not be not as effective as with these measures.

If you ask and then you get let through (as I have been on a few occasions when not travelling but assisiting a friend) then what is the problem? You make them out to be a hassle but then admit that in reality they aren't too bad and simply asking to be let through most of the time does the trick, which isn't that much of an inconvenience.

 

[Greenback]

Usually I encounter no problems or delays with barriers. Sometimes, though, there is a short wait to get through.

The advantages for me are, at least when they are in operation, that they help to keep undesirables off the platforms (Swansea used to have a problem with drug users in the platform side toilets) and allow me to ensure that I actually have my ticket on me before I reach the train.

However, I do agree with NSEFAN about them needing to be properly managed. I once encountered a very lengthy queue trying to get on to Platform 10 at Paddington because there didn't seem to be enough gates for a full HST train load. Having got to the barriers, they wouldn't accept my ticket, and the one member of staff there was inundated and couldn't come across to me to help. As a result of the tut tutting and comments from those behind me, I felt it was best to return tot he back of the queue at the manual gate. It was a very frustrating and annoying experience.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

They are fine so long as they are not used to displace staff. They need to be well manned in the Peak and have sufficient staff in place off Peak. I am sure they help with revenue and generally I am in favour of them.
Can you still buy platform tickets? When I were a lad I am sure you bought them for 1p or 2p out of a red platform ticket machine.

 

[Greenback]

It was a blue and white machine, at least at Swansea, when my family and I used to get a 2p platform ticket to meet people arriving on the train from London!

I agree that there needs to be sufficient staff. In my example, there clearly wasn't and the barriers should have been left open in my view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that there needs to be sufficient staff. In my example, there clearly wasn't and the barriers should have been left open in my view.

I have encountered a LUL barrier which was unstaffed, my ticket (valid) didn't work, and the emergency open button also didn't work. I forget where, it was a while ago. Can't remember if I reported it, but it was a definite fire hazard. As I'm quite big I just shoved through and the alarms went off, nobody made any attempt to respond. Very concerning.

(I don't mind them being remote-monitored provided there's a phone to call someone to let you through *and* that is answered within 30 seconds or so, but I *do* mind being effectively trapped in with a valid ticket)

 

[Greenback]

I quite agree, Neil. I'm against remote monitoring in principle, but I recognise it may be an acceptable solution in some places.

I think it's a fact that some barrier lines seem to work better than others. Those like the ones at platform 10 in Paddington aren't fit for purpose, at least when HST's are in the platform, they may be OK for a Turbo sized train.

 

[northwichcat]

In Europe some Metro systems have a flat single fare (unless you hold a ticket valid for unlimited journeys for the day or a longer period) and on those ticket barriers work well. Quite often they don't have exit barriers but just turn styles.

However, the more complex ticketing is the less effective they are because ticket barriers can only do what they're programmed to do. I don't know if the ones at Chester know that for instance:
* An outbound Flint to London Terminals ticket cannot be split at Chester
* An outbound Delamere to London Terminals ticket can be split at Chester
* An outbound Stockport to London Terminals ticket is not valid via Chester

 

[Welshman]

They are fine so long as they are not used to displace staff. They need to be well manned in the Peak and have sufficient staff in place off Peak. I am sure they help with revenue and generally I am in favour of them.
Can you still buy platform tickets? When I were a lad I am sure you bought them for 1p or 2p out of a red platform ticket machine.

They seem to be sold at some stations, but at others you are simply allowed through for purpose of greeting/meeting/train watching, etc.

I remember once wishing to see my wife off at Chester, and, on requesting to be allowed through the barriers, was directed to the ticket office to buy a platform ticket.

I was happy enough with this, but amused to find when I returned clutching said piece of card, it didn't work the barrier, and I had to go through the manual one!

 

[northwichcat]

I have encountered a LUL barrier which was unstaffed, my ticket (valid) didn't work, and the emergency open button also didn't work. I forget where, it was a while ago. Can't remember if I reported it, but it was a definite fire hazard. As I'm quite big I just shoved through and the alarms went off, nobody made any attempt to respond. Very concerning.

(I don't mind them being remote-monitored provided there's a phone to call someone to let you through *and* that is answered within 30 seconds or so, but I *do* mind being effectively trapped in with a valid ticket)

I imagine if you report it and claim it's a fire hazard the response you'll get is in the event of a fire they'll be automatically open. However, in the event of a fire it's possible passengers will see the fire before the fire alarm goes off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

* An outbound Flint to London Terminals ticket cannot be split at Chester

You can't BoJ, but going out of the barriers to use station services is not BoJ.

* An outbound Delamere to London Terminals ticket can be split at Chester
* An outbound Stockport to London Terminals ticket is not valid via Chester

In reality we are talking edge cases. Most people are passing through with singles/returns to/from the station where the barriers are. It's quite sufficient to programme it for those and use manual intervention for complex cases.

At Chester you could deal with the great majority of such edge cases by just allowing through any ticket that is to/from any North Wales Coast or Conwy Valley station.

It's like TVMs. TVMs are great for simple cases, if it gets complicated that's when you go to the window. Having a load of TVMs means that, if people are encouraged to use them, the queue for complex stuff at the window can be shorter.

 

[northwichcat]

You can't BoJ, but going out of the barriers to use station services is not BoJ.

...

In reality we are talking edge cases. Most people are passing through with singles/returns to/from the station where the barriers are. It's quite sufficient to programme it for those and use manual intervention for complex cases.

Looking at Chester station usage for the most recent year:
0.6 million exits were for adult single/return tickets
1.2 million exits were for reduced single/return tickets
0.2 million exits were for season tickets
0.9 million interchanges were made

And looking at Leeds station usage for the most recent year:

3 million exits were for adult single/return tickets
6.6 million exits were for reduced single/return tickets
4.2 million exits were for season tickets
2.7 million interchanges were made

Given barriers do not check the age of the passenger, whether they have a railcard or whether they are the actual season ticket holder that means their effectiveness at such stations is questionable.

 

[Flamingo]

Shouldn't this subject be a stickie? It's posted in one shape or another every 5-6 months...

 

[tsr]

Given barriers do not check the age of the passenger, whether they have a railcard or whether they are the actual season ticket holder that means their effectiveness at such stations is questionable.

Oh, but they do. They can be set up for all sorts of revenue checks, including rejecting child- or railcard-discounted tickets for manual inspection. And in many places, they are - as elsewhere in this thread. Admittedly they are not always brilliant at dealing with season ticket misuse.

 

[stut]

I don't like barriers generally, mostly because they can constrict station entrances and exits, can be unwieldy if you're carrying a lot, and make it more difficult to see people off or help them on to the train.

However, the big advantage, for me, is when you're using smartcards. I regularly travel in Denmark, using a Rejsekort smartcard, and it's just too easy to walk out of the station without touching out (although placement of the machines can have a lot to do with this...)

 

[northwichcat]

Oh, but they do. They can be set up for all sorts of revenue checks, including rejecting child- or railcard-discounted tickets for manual inspection. And in many places, they are - as elsewhere in this thread.

I think there's a slight contradiction in your post. If the barriers were able to check those criteria they wouldn't need to be set to reject them so the tickets can be manually inspected.

Admittedly they are not always brilliant at dealing with season ticket misuse.

If manual ticket checks were carried out on platforms it would prevent someone with a ticket like Chester-Capenhurst getting on a Euston bound service or someone getting the wrong train with an Advance which a barrier cannot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given barriers do not check the age of the passenger

They do bleep if a child ticket is used, or can be set to do a manual block on child/Railcard tickets from time to time.

whether they have a railcard or whether they are the actual season ticket holder that means their effectiveness at such stations is questionable.

I would think season ticket transfer is a relatively small problem. Railcards maybe more so, I suspect in the long run that will be solved by the Railcard being a smartcard and discounted tickets only being issued loaded onto it. Japanese barriers can handle two tickets at once, inserted together, so I wonder why we never tried that?

But the majority of ticketless travel is not deliberate fraud by using an incorrect ticket. Most of it is simple ticketless travel, i.e. "I'll pay if I'm asked", and barriers stop all of that by doing that "asking" before you even get on the platform.

 

[D6975]

Given barriers do not check the age of the passenger, whether they have a railcard or whether they are the actual season ticket holder that means their effectiveness at such stations is questionable.

They might not be able to check the passenger's age, but alot of barriers emit a noise (multiple bleeps usually) when a child ticket goes through, alerting nearby staff that a child ticket has been fed in and so it should be a child going through the barrier.

 

[CC 72100]

But the majority of ticketless travel is not deliberate fraud by using an incorrect ticket. Most of it is simple ticketless travel, i.e. "I'll pay if I'm asked", and barriers stop all of that by doing that "asking" before you even get on the platform.

The 'pay when challenged' brigade as some forum members call them.

 

[TEW]

Oh, but they do. They can be set up for all sorts of revenue checks, including rejecting child- or railcard-discounted tickets for manual inspection. And in many places, they are - as elsewhere in this thread. Admittedly they are not always brilliant at dealing with season ticket misuse.

Ticket barriers can be set to reject season tickets too. It's not an advisable course of action during the weekday peak, when it would cause huge delay to the large numbers of passengers with season tickets. But it can be useful at Off Peak times when there are far less season tickets around.

 

[LexyBoy]

What's the season ticket misuse being talked about here? Use by someone other than the owner?