New Valley Lines Electric Stock

[DannyW27]

With the electrification of the Valley Lines network, and the need to replace all the pacers by 2019 due to DDA what rolling stock is most suited/likely to be introduced on the network?

Personally I think Class 323 would be ideal if they were replaced in the Midlands and Manchester by new trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the electrification of the Valley Lines network, and the need to replace all the pacers by 2019 due to DDA what rolling stock is most suited/likely to be introduced on the network?

313s? Yes, they're old, but Southern and Merseyrail have shown that PEP stock can be refurbished to a very high standard.

 

[D365]

It's been noted that numerous examples of the PEP builds (313, 507/508 - nothing heard about 314 or 315) might be suffering from corrosion or bodyshell issues - all that seemingly comes with age. 323s could be useful indeed but there's not enough of them, and no signs of any new order.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the idea initially was refurbished 315s reformed in to 3 car sets, with the Welsh Assembly hoping after a few years they can be replaced by new EMUs.

The 142s are going by 2019 but Porterbrook are floating the option of refurbished 143s and 144s continuing in service beyond 2019. Northern will release their 144s by 2019 while FGW are releasing their 143s. With Valley Lines likely being electrified around 3 years after the DDA deadline it's likely a short term solution will need to be found which could be refurbished 143/4s or it could be the D-Train.
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323s could be useful indeed but there's not enough of them, and no signs of any new order.

323s are one of the cheapest EMUs to operate and provide up to around 280 seats per 3 car set, which is more than a 4 car ATW 150 offers, although that number will come down slightly when the 323s get new accessible retention toilets fitted.

I find it a bit ironic when people talk about replacing Northern Pacers being unaffordable in one breath but suggest Northern giving up 323s in the next.

 

[gareth950]

The most pressing issue on the valley lines at the moment is what DMUs will be keeping the valley lines running past 2020, let alone what EMUs the valleys may get, with electrification looking like it won't be complete until mid-2020s at the earliest.

From what I've read in the local press, especially since the D-trains story a few weeks ago, it's looking increasingly likely that pressure will be put on the WG for new build EMUs for when the valleys are eventually electrified. So 313s - I don't think so, which by 2025 will be 50 years old.

This will be especially true if the valleys do end up with modified Pacers, or even D-trains to plug the DMU gap until electrification.

 

[hwl]

27x 4 car 317s also probably available (ex GN and LO West Anglia)

[61x 4 car 315s]

 

[CardiffKid]

In the next ten years the Valley Lines will see two new types of trains, a stop gap solution of cascaded trains to relieve the overcrowding issues and to meet EU access requirements, and then once electrification is complete a full set of electric trains.

Edwina Hart has been dropping subtle hints about the rolling stock post electrification suggesting that they will be new trains.

It would make perfect sense for the Welsh Government to finance the rolling stock with an eye on using them for the next 3(?) franchises.

 

[D365]

The Class 317 and related Mk3-derivative EMUs are younger and may be a bit more robust, however by design they're not ideal for stopping services - for which there is a growing demand. It looks likely that the Class 317 and 321 fleets will be refurbished in the near future (retraction and new interiors) but I doubt that the funding for additional and more suitable units will be made available for the foreseeable.

 

[WatcherZero]

Business case was based on 315's but it was suggested 313's were actually in better condition/more suitable, corrosion issues aside.

 

[gareth950]

Business case was based on 315's but it was suggested 313's were actually in better condition/more suitable, corrosion issues aside.

That business case was drawn up in 2011-12, when it was expected by the WG that electrification would be complete by 2019 allowing for the withdrawal of all of the valley lines 1980s DMU stock in time for the 2020 deadline and so solving any DDA complaint issues with valleys stock at the same time. The 313s/315s were to quickest option to getting EMU stock ready for 2019, with new build stock coming later on.

Now we all know that won't be happening.

 

[northwichcat]

That business case was drawn up in 2011-12, when it was expected by the WG that electrification would be complete by 2019 allowing for the withdrawal of all of the valley lines 1980s DMU stock in time for the 2020 deadline and so solving any DDA complaint issues with valleys stock at the same time. The 313s/315s were to quickest option to getting EMU stock ready for 2019, with new build stock coming later on.

Now we all know that won't be happening.

The business case has to be based on what's available at the time when it was drawn up. The Manchester-York one was based on 380s on longer services and 333s on shorter services but the likelihood of 380s ever been used on longer services was slim, 333s on shorter services was more likely but certainly not confirmed.

I wouldn't bet against 319s going to Valley Lines. Northern don't need all the remaining 319s (even if LM keep a small number.) The plans for FGW getting some aren't now going ahead. That leaves an option for another operator to take on 319s.

 

[Harlan Cage]

For South Wales, a Barry People Mover maybe!

HC

 

[HSTfan!!!]

For South Wales, a Barry People Mover maybe!

HC

Close the door behind you... lol

 

[Gareth Marston]

In the next ten years the Valley Lines will see two new types of trains, a stop gap solution of cascaded trains to relieve the overcrowding issues and to meet EU access requirements, and then once electrification is complete a full set of electric trains.

Edwina Hart has been dropping subtle hints about the rolling stock post electrification suggesting that they will be new trains.

It would make perfect sense for the Welsh Government to finance the rolling stock with an eye on using them for the next 3(?) franchises.

The ex FGW stuff flushed out by cascades seems sensible enough and then it's going to be odds on for new build a Hitachi EMU's owned by WG. That was what was coming from the rail seminar in Cardiff in May. However the fly in the ointment is whether Cardiff to Manchester services stay in the franchise as the higher fare basket from the Marches is earmarked for the funding source.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Even if the Welsh government doesn't buy new electric trains outright they could come to the same arrangement Transport Scotland did for the AT200s and have the right to buy the entire fleet for £1 after 25 years.