Apple Pay coming to the UK next month

[Bletchleyite]

Although I found that germany is surprisingly card-unfriendly

Yes, has long been very much a cash society. Japan was another one that surprised me in that way.

and In austria I once chip and pinned a card, and was then asked to sign it as well!

I've had that in Switzerland. The machine decides, not the operator - it seems common for that kind of "belt and braces" to be used on foreign cards.

 

[DeeGee]

But nearly everyone will still carry around a wallet or purse with their payment cards/ID/travel tickets in, so if a phone doesn't replace the wallet does it provide a significant benefit over a contactless card?

Not sure if I'm a particularly niche market, but I'm really jonesing for something that lets me use my mobile as a payment card.

I run longish distances for fun, 15 or 20 miles on a Sunday morning. Sometimes, rarely, though sometimes in the summer, I fail to plan for the conditions, get too hot, need to get a drink, or simply bonk and need to get home.

For this reason, I always carry a phone which contains my ICE details. I can phone the wife and get her to come and get me. I don't carry a wallet with all my cards in. The phone has a radio and a camera so I can use the one device for all my needs except paying for stuff.

If I could pay with my phone for trains and buses, not only does this offer me emergency payment for refreshments/to get home, but actually opens up a lot of new routes for me. I could, for instance, get the train down to Market Rasen in the morning and run home.

I'd imagine there are other endurance athletes who would also welcome this. Cyclists would potentially be a big market as a large part of their activity involves the purchasing of tea and cakes.

I'd love to see this implemented.

 

[headshot119]

Yes, has long been very much a cash society. Japan was another one that surprised me in that way.



I've had that in Switzerland. The machine decides, not the operator - it seems common for that kind of "belt and braces" to be used on foreign cards.

Except when the receipt clearly says "Chip & Pin - No signature" then they thrust a pen at you and ask you to sign as well :roll:

 

[talldave]

Ah an android user! I don't think we've had confirmation on how Tfl are accepting Apple Pay. It may be just for purchasing travel cards etc, are people just assuming that it will be used as an Oyster-like process with it's accompanying issues if you don't tap out?

Well, non-Apple . When my phone's battery dies, I simply take off the back and slip in the spare battery I carry with me!!

It doesn't bother me if TfL want to support Apple Pay, as long as they don't spend vast amounts of capital changing their infrastructure to suit Apple's way of doing things.

And if carrying a dead iPhone becomes the easiest way to travel around the tube system without paying... I might just have to consider getting one

 

[Be3G]

Ah an android user! I don't think we've had confirmation on how Tfl are accepting Apple Pay. It may be just for purchasing travel cards etc, are people just assuming that it will be used as an Oyster-like process with it's accompanying issues if you don't tap out?

We have had confirmation in a press release. It explains that Apple Pay will replicate the standard contactless card functionality that TfL provide (not Oyster functionality unfortunately so no season tickets), which makes sense as the point of Apple Pay is that it simply ‘recreates’ one's contactless debit/credit card on-device.

 

[anme]

Not sure if I'm a particularly niche market, but I'm really jonesing for something that lets me use my mobile as a payment card.

I run longish distances for fun, 15 or 20 miles on a Sunday morning. Sometimes, rarely, though sometimes in the summer, I fail to plan for the conditions, get too hot, need to get a drink, or simply bonk and need to get home.

For this reason, I always carry a phone which contains my ICE details. I can phone the wife and get her to come and get me. I don't carry a wallet with all my cards in. The phone has a radio and a camera so I can use the one device for all my needs except paying for stuff.

If I could pay with my phone for trains and buses, not only does this offer me emergency payment for refreshments/to get home, but actually opens up a lot of new routes for me. I could, for instance, get the train down to Market Rasen in the morning and run home.

I'd imagine there are other endurance athletes who would also welcome this. Cyclists would potentially be a big market as a large part of their activity involves the purchasing of tea and cakes.

I'd love to see this implemented.

All true, but honestly it's not very hard to carry a payment card when running or cycling. The additional weight is really not significant! So I don't agree that new running or cycling routes will be opened up compared to now.

I agree that mobile payments will be welcome, but it's a small incremental improvement over what we have now, not something revolutionary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I could pay with my phone for trains and buses, not only does this offer me emergency payment for refreshments/to get home, but actually opens up a lot of new routes for me. I could, for instance, get the train down to Market Rasen in the morning and run home.

I agree this would be useful, but why not simply carry one credit/debit card in the meantime? If you use one of those phone carrying armbands it would probably fit there with the phone.

 

[34D]

We have had confirmation in a press release. It explains that Apple Pay will replicate the standard contactless card functionality that TfL provide (not Oyster functionality unfortunately so no season tickets), which makes sense as the point of Apple Pay is that it simply ‘recreates’ ones contactless debit/credit card on-device.

What if ones bank decides that one's debit card is to become online only

 

[DeeGee]

I agree this would be useful, but why not simply carry one credit/debit card in the meantime? If you use one of those phone carrying armbands it would probably fit there with the phone.

My phone is attached to my ears via earphones. I would be utterly aware of the precise moment it dropped out of my pocket.

I once lost a tenner on a run removing my phone from my pocket to take a photo. I forgot I was carrying it and it flew out of my rear pocket at one of the photo stops.

I can't guarantee after three hours of running that I'd remember whether I'd brought a card or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What if ones bank decides that one's debit card is to become online only

You can have online authorisation with contactless. It takes a bit longer, that's all.

 

[Agent_c]

Further to my original post, it turns out that Apple Pay does actually use NFC. This has added an absolutely massive reason for me moving to iPhone (which isn't really welcome right now as my phone has just packed up half way through contract!)

Indeed, I have had Windows Phones that have been fully capable of being Contactless payment devices for about 3 years now and it's infuriating that they still haven't implemented it. The problem is that the way Android and Microsoft have implemented it requires there to be a Secure Element on the SIM card, and none of the network operators can be bothered to implement that in the UK. Apple appear to have one-upped them by just putting the Secure Element in the device itself - therefore completely bypassing the network operators, who for years have been comprehensively lazy on the matter!

Its not that they've been lazy, its that the cellcos have been wanting a cut noone wants to pay them, meaning that agreement between banks and operators was impossible. Some operators tried to sidestep it by doing silly things like O2 Money or Paym, but couldnt make it stick.

 

[SS4]

The problem is that the way Android and Microsoft have implemented it requires there to be a Secure Element on the SIM card, and none of the network operators can be bothered to implement that in the UK. Apple appear to have one-upped them by just putting the Secure Element in the device itself - therefore completely bypassing the network operators, who for years have been comprehensively lazy on the matter!

So Apple have decided, once more, that they know best and sod you if you think different [sic]? I'd rather take the Android and Microsoft way to be honest. I can change SIM if required

 

[WelshBluebird]

Further to my original post, it turns out that Apple Pay does actually use NFC. This has added an absolutely massive reason for me moving to iPhone (which isn't really welcome right now as my phone has just packed up half way through contract!)

Indeed, I have had Windows Phones that have been fully capable of being Contactless payment devices for about 3 years now and it's infuriating that they still haven't implemented it. The problem is that the way Android and Microsoft have implemented it requires there to be a Secure Element on the SIM card, and none of the network operators can be bothered to implement that in the UK. Apple appear to have one-upped them by just putting the Secure Element in the device itself - therefore completely bypassing the network operators, who for years have been comprehensively lazy on the matter!

I was under the impression Google had moved to using host card emulation to negate the need for the secure element, exactly because networks were play hard to get (even in America, where the networks supported Softcard and refused to allow Google to access the secure element, hence why they started using HCE and have now actually gone and bought Softcard's IP).

 

[Via Bank]

So Apple have decided, once more, that they know best and sod you if you think different [sic]? I'd rather take the Android and Microsoft way to be honest. I can change SIM if required

But why should the secure element be on the SIM, rather than inside the phone hardware, which is actually the "bit" you're using to authenticate?

Apple had it right, and Google and Microsoft clearly think this is the "right way" too since their NFC implementation is moving to the same. (They're also moving to tokenised EMV, like Apple Pay, which will be good for privacy and security.)

You can still change SIM, of course. And a double bonus of the secure element being in the phone rather than the SIM is that if you change SIM, your phone doesn't lose all memory of the authentication bits you've associated with it.

 

[andrewkeith5]

But why should the secure element be on the SIM, rather than inside the phone hardware, which is actually the "bit" you're using to authenticate?

Apple had it right, and Google and Microsoft clearly think this is the "right way" too since their NFC implementation is moving to the same. (They're also moving to tokenised EMV, like Apple Pay, which will be good for privacy and security.)

You can still change SIM, of course. And a double bonus of the secure element being in the phone rather than the SIM is that if you change SIM, your phone doesn't lose all memory of the authentication bits you've associated with it.

This. On this particular subject, Apple do actually know best...

 

[Agent_c]

So Apple have decided, once more, that they know best and sod you if you think different [sic]? I'd rather take the Android and Microsoft way to be honest. I can change SIM if required

That way is no way, because operators never agreed to allow your sim to be used that way. It adds an extra mouth to the trough (Payment Processor, Card issue, Handset maker, and now cell network).

The sim ultimately is a redundant item in this equation - there shouldnt be a need to replace it for a payment issue; and if your new provider decides not to support this feature, then you're up the proverbial creek should you change cellco.

With the element on the handset, you are free to change between networks without losing the payment feature, no matter how small your new operator might be.