Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[snowball]

It's a shame the electrification superceded the plan to reopen at least one of the disused bores at Standedge, as this would allow a limited service to operate via a single line, similar to what is happening at Farnworth.

Since they're reported to be looking again at the capacity requirements, I suppose the plan may yet be revived.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TP electrification is due to follow on from the GW scheme with the same gangs but how long is a piece of string as to when the GW scheme will be finished.

Has a contract been awarded then?
The only previous statement about it, over a year ago, was that Carillion Powerlines would do all the Scotland/North Eastern routes (ie EGIP and TP) as well as East Midlands (MML - just started).

Amey are doing most of the GW project, with Balfour Beatty the Crossrail bit east of Maidenhead (and the NW scheme of course).
All this depends on detailed contracts though.
I don't think anything has ever been confirmed about the Valleys wiring job.
Amey will do the core Severn Tunnel-Swansea route.
Chase and Bromsgrove are coming up soon too.

 

[WatcherZero]

Still waiting on the electrification refresh which is so long overdue, I was currently expecting it to drop straight after election purdah but been disappointed. We know its substantially complete since at least the end of last year as the line costings NR did were given to the Electrification Taskforce for their benefit-cost analysis before the year began, I was initially expecting it to drop in February around the same time as their report.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Forgive a stranger's possible ignorance, but were not the multiple rail links across the Pennines mainly to do with shifting coal rather than people? Could it not be an irony that the M62 road created demand for people links that TPE type services can now exploit? In this regard, perhaps the GC Woodhead coal road could be needed eventually?

Ah. A note of reality.
Of course the railways were built to shift minerals and goods. That's how they made their money. Passenger trains, outside commuter lines, were arranged around the mineral and goods trains. But with energy supplied mostly by cable and pipeline that market has largely gone.
As an aside how much coal is dragged up the S&C these days.
Jeff

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, its not to say passengers wernt profitable, they were surprised how profitable they were initially. But freight was the bread and butter for paying for new routes (though many never broke even and their backers went belly up). Nowadays though freight on rail is incredibly heavily subsidised through track access charges that are a fraction of the actual track damage they cause.

 

[thealexweb]

Who is the contractor providing Phase 4 of the Northern Hub?

 

[snowball]

That's a post from 2013 you're replying to, Jeff and Watcher.

The lamented Woodhead electrification was, I think, primarily done for coal traffic, but the electricity grid, and the building of power stations on the east side where the coal was, helped to seal its fate. It was cheaper to transmit electricity than carry coal.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Still waiting on the electrification refresh which is so long overdue, I was currently expecting it to drop straight after election purdah but been disappointed. We know its substantially complete since at least the end of last year as the line costings NR did were given to the Electrification Taskforce for their benefit-cost analysis before the year began, I was initially expecting it to drop in February around the same time as their report.

In Modern Railways approx December 2014 there was a calendar of events expected in 2015 which listed the electrification RUS refresh as due out about June, if I remember correctly.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In Modern Railways approx December 2014 there was a calendar of events expected in 2015 which listed the electrification RUS refresh as due out about June, if I remember correctly.

Which would make sense - it would need to be after the General Election and State opening of Parliament and allow time for any new government to settle in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who is the contractor providing Phase 4 of the Northern Hub?

Assume you mean NW electrification, not Northen Hub (which hasn't got phases, I don't think - yet!)
Balfour Beatty are doing all of the NW electrification project, same as Phase 1/2.
They will do all the remaining work (Blackpool, Stalybridge, Windermere etc, probably the Hub work in Manchester too).
Apparently they will also do some of the ground work from Stalybridge up to Standedge on the TP job.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assume you mean NW electrification, not Northen Hub (which hasn't got phases, I don't think - yet!)

Balfour Beatty are doing all of the NW electrification project, same as Phase 1/2. They will do all the remaining work (Blackpool, Stalybridge, Windermere etc, probably the Hub work in Manchester too). Apparently they will also do some of the ground work from Stalybridge up to Standedge on the TP job.

Balfour Beatty seem well represented on current North West transport projects as they are the approved contractor of the Leigh Guided Busway project.

 

[bluenoxid]

I have just seen this shared on my LinkedIn Newsfeed. It is a 3D model of the bedrock on the Leeds to York route commissioned by Tata Steel.

http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/509777/

Looked interesting and shiny but really is boring*

* I'm here all day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Balfour Beatty seem well represented on current North West transport projects as they are the approved contractor of the Leigh Guided Busway project.

Fingers crossed they have done their figures well. The recent history of BB has not been good. However, there is no suggestion that this has impacted their project delivery.

 

[Senex]

Yeah, its not to say passengers wernt profitable, they were surprised how profitable they were initially. But freight was the bread and butter for paying for new routes (though many never broke even and their backers went belly up). Nowadays though freight on rail is incredibly heavily subsidised through track access charges that are a fraction of the actual track damage they cause.

Just so. The first promoters expected their main money to come from goods and were somewhat surprised when it turned out that passengers were more profitable. Some companies, like the London & Birmingham, were really rather reluctant to dirty their hands with freight at all at first. But then later on in the C19 the pendulum swung back to freight, and that was really the reason why so much quadrupling got done on the GW, the LNW, and the Midland (and to a lesser extent elsewhere). It's no accident that most of the Midland's third and fourth tracks remained goods lines only -- even the main line north from St Pancras had slow lines only to Harpenden Jn IIRC. But in terms of timetabling, it was always the passenger services that went on the graph first, which was the reason why so many freights ended up sitting for so long in loops in the course of their journeys and why railfreight got a reputation for being so slow. There weren't that many express goods about.

 

[thealexweb]

Assume you mean NW electrification, not Northen Hub (which hasn't got phases, I don't think - yet!)
Balfour Beatty are doing all of the NW electrification project, same as Phase 1/2.
They will do all the remaining work (Blackpool, Stalybridge, Windermere etc, probably the Hub work in Manchester too).
Apparently they will also do some of the ground work from Stalybridge up to Standedge on the TP job.

My mistake. Thank you for the information.

 

[Geeves]

I think you could probably put this in here!

The shortest electrification extension ever?

Slowly slowly

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think you could probably put this in here!
The shortest electrification extension ever?
Slowly slowly

I had missed the fact that the handful of masts east of Victoria had "VL" prefixes rather then "LM" (Liverpool-Manchester).
Presumably VL is for "Victoria-Leeds", so it does show willing!

I'm not sure what the extra 90m of OHLE gives them, as I don't think EMUs will be able to reverse east of the station.
They might be able to use the full platform length though, EMUs currently have to stop 50m or so short of the ends.

 

[Topgun333]

Transpennine electrification between Manchester and York delayed indefinitely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33066581

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Transpennine electrification between Manchester and York delayed indefinitely.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33066581

This doesn't appear to be new bad news, it's just confirmation that the planning review is still in progress.
I think it is supposed to be "the summer" when Network Rail and ORR complete the review of CP5 projects.
There are several other high-profile projects in the same uncertain state (eg signalling projects and other electrification schemes).

This was the parliamentary answer by Andrew Jones: http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...ents/written-question/Commons/2015-06-01/665/

Network Rail has been developing the scheme to electrify the route between Manchester and York since 2011. Network Rail has recently concluded that more work will be needed than previously planned. This is in order to accommodate the expected growth in train services, deliver the significant improvement in journey times needed to generate economic growth, and provide the best possible performance and capacity on this line. Network Rail has been working with the Department to ensure that this work will be planned as efficiently as possible, and we cannot clarify the completion date until the planning is completed

 

[northwichcat]

This doesn't appear to be new bad news, it's just confirmation that the planning review is still in progress.

I agree. The news is a government minister has confirmed what was tucked away in the TPE ITT where it says Manchester-York electrification will be completed by December 2020 or later opposed to the original December 2018.

 

[Haydn1971]

Ponders if the "more work" is actually smoke and mirrors for, not going to do TPE North if we decide to move forward with HS3 ?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

How does this affect the bids for TPE franchise? Hard to procure a new fleet of EMU's when the bidders don't know the date when electrification will be completed or existing DMU's can be cascaded.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ponders if the "more work" is actually smoke and mirrors for, not going to do TPE North if we decide to move forward with HS3 ?

It would indeed be interesting to know if the NR TP electrification team is talking to the NR "HS3" team...
If major infrastructure upgrades are needed on the current route it must play into the larger scheme.
Supposedly it's all about how to get 6tph out of the current route.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ponders if the "more work" is actually smoke and mirrors for, not going to do TPE North if we decide to move forward with HS3 ?

There won't be an HS3 this side of 2030, so I highly doubt it.

 

[Haydn1971]

There won't be an HS3 this side of 2030, so I highly doubt it.

You've missed the talk about HS3 and the Leeds-Sheffield HS2 line being fast tracked then ?

 

[northwichcat]

Supposedly it's all about how to get 6tph out of the current route.

6tph can be done without any changes. However, it would mean the stoppers get withdrawn and 2 of the services become 'semi-fast' instead of express.

Electrification is supposed to be able to allow 6tph plus stoppers as well, if required.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Ponders if the "more work" is actually smoke and mirrors for, not going to do TPE North if we decide to move forward with HS3 ?

It's exactly that - "more work". The North TransPennine route has been massively impacted by changes coming in every direction.

There's HS3 fairly obviously, but there's also the Hull electrification scheme and there's the possibility of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 recommendations from RailNorth's Electrification Task Force being incorporated into the CP6 and CP7 RUS. They all impact on the North TransPennine electrification and the TransPennine franchise in different ways.

The biggest challenge is working out what additional capacity could be generated by electrification to Hull, additional electrification in CP6 & CP7 and by HS3. When the additional capacity is determined, it's a case of determining what and where the new capacity constraints will be and whether they should be pre-emptively dealt with during core electrification works, making best use of possessions and engineering assets in the area(s) concerned.

There's also the opportunity to operate 125mph capable rolling stock and if you do that, you may want to make linespeed improvements. They in turn may require track realignment or other alterations which make more sense if you're already rebuilding structures or lowering track for electrification purposes.

 

[Class 170101]

You've missed the talk about HS3 and the Leeds-Sheffield HS2 line being fast tracked then ?

But even if thats true I still doubt HS2 will be finished before 2026 for phase 1, some ten years away and stage 2 in 2032 and therefore HS3 is unlikely to begin before then never mind finish. I just don't believe the resources will be available to complete the jobs simultaneuously and thats without consideration to Crossrail 2.

 

[po8crg]

How does this affect the bids for TPE franchise? Hard to procure a new fleet of EMU's when the bidders don't know the date when electrification will be completed or existing DMU's can be cascaded.

They were told to presume no electrification during the term of the franchise.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Transpennine electrification between Manchester and York delayed indefinitely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33066581

Northern hub depends on electrification for max effect, otherwise the planned 6tph drops to 5 and in doing so, significantly drops the benefit cost ratio

 

[PhilipW]

Might this now mean that there is a rethink on the disused Standedge tunnels that will increase capacity by making 4-tracks between Diggle and Marsden ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Might this now mean that there is a rethink on the disused Standedge tunnels that will increase capacity by making 4-tracks between Diggle and Marsden ?

The only hint from NR is that the route will need resignalling to support the extra services (ie closing up sections).
Originally, NR thought the existing signalling would cope, but it is at its limit with the current 5tph.
Signalling design resources are in very short supply, with so many schemes going on round the country.