Long-distance coaches in Germany

[dutchflyer]

No, its in fact a little different:Mega runs 2/day Munchen-Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Koeln, then to BRUssels and then 1/day to AMsterdam and 1/day to Paris-in both cases rather roundabout,and adding a 3d daily trip to both latter sections. When trying out FROm DE in German they did not even offer 1 fare MUC-LON.
Plenty of 1 eur fares though to be snapped by cheap charlies.
(POlskibus, also owned by Souter/Stagecoach, has the same fare policy-from 1 PLN-and has now gained a very good and strong network in PL and to surrounding countries-I am very satisfied with them and what they offer).
IDbus, always chasing after Mega, has also opened a new Paris-Lille-Koeln 1/day link. (IDBus is 100% owned by strikeprone SNCF).
The assumed DeinBus failure seems to have led to a newstart.
MeinFernBus expects to gain a healthy profit from next year, up till now all those FERNbusse run in the red.

 

[radamfi]

MeinFernbus have an unusual fare policy. With most bus/train/plane companies, you pay the lowest fare by booking well in advance. With MeinFernbus, you pay the highest fare if you book well in advance, and often the lowest fare by booking just before departure.

I prefer iDBus compared to Megabus as they have allocated seating and you can move the aisle seat so give you a bigger gap between you and the passenger next to you. Also their check in system using mobile phones is quicker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, its in fact a little different:Mega runs 2/day Munchen-Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Koeln, then to BRUssels and then 1/day to AMsterdam and 1/day to Paris-in both cases rather roundabout,and adding a 3d daily trip to both latter sections. When trying out FROm DE in German they did not even offer 1 fare MUC-LON.
Plenty of 1 eur fares though to be snapped by cheap charlies.
(POlskibus, also owned by Souter/Stagecoach, has the same fare policy-from 1 PLN-and has now gained a very good and strong network in PL and to surrounding countries-I am very satisfied with them and what they offer).

A minor point, but Polskibus is owned by Souter independently from Stagecoach, though it is obviously a Megabus clone.

Neil

 

[camerig]

There will be a merger between MeinFernbus and Flixbus. Together they made 75% of the market. Not sure if it is good news...

 

[radamfi]

There will be a merger between MeinFernbus and FlixBus. Together they made 75% of the market. Not sure if it is good news...

Wow. I guess it was inevitable that the cut-throat competition would end up in consolidation and companies going out of business.

The coaches within Germany will be green and the fleetname will be "MeinFernbus FlixBus"

http://meinfernbus.de/meinfernbus-flixbus.html

On the FlixBus site, they say they want to create a pan-European network.

https://www.flixbus.com/meinfernbus-flixbus-become-one

You could possibly infer from that is that international coaches will be coloured blue and use the FlixBus brand. That would make sense as "FlixBus" is obviously a more internationally usable name than "MeinFernbus".

It would appear that it looks like a cartel, but it might make it easier for Megabus to compete if fares increase and frequencies are rationalised. Also Postbus (obviously now without ADAC) may find it easier too. In addition, DB Advance-type fares and the SWT/QDL tickets put a ceiling on what the coaches can realistically charge.

I took my first rides on MeinFernbus and FlixBus on Monday. Boarding was efficient because they use smartphones to scan your barcode. Also both coaches had aisle seats that could be moved into the aisle, meaning you have better privacy without sacrificing capacity. National Express and Megabus could learn from that.

I also took the trial London to Düsseldorf ICBus service and it was a brand new, double deck Setra and also with width adjustable seats. It used P&O Ferries to cross the Channel.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I saw the Flix bus service last week in Freiburg, it was going to Dresden.

 

[radamfi]

To 'celebrate' the merger of FlixBus and MeinFernbus, there are a lot of 11 euro fares available if you book by the end of tomorrow.

I was reading one of the Fernbus forums and someone was complaining that he couldn't get his money back after the City2City shutdown. It was suggested that he ought to be able to claim from the parent company National Express Group as that is still trading.

 

[radamfi]

Megabus are looking for coach staff for new depots in Hannover and Munich

http://www.fahrerboerse.net/stellenangebot_kraftfahrer.php?fid=6925&pid=680&kid=1&kat=bus

 

[WestCoast]

Took a return trip from Munich to Stuttgart; out on the new Megabus Europe service (€1.50) and inbound with ADAC Postbus (€6.00).

Nice new Belgian registered left-hand drive Astromega on the Megabus service which continues to Brussels & Paris via Frankfurt and Cologne after Stuttgart. Service was punctual and the driver in full Stagecoach uniform seemed to be Belgian, as he didn't speak German but was very pleasant and polite nonetheless. Interestingly, he had no booking record sheet and had to fill out details manually on a boarding (possibly not received from the UK?). Otherwise the interior was Standard Megabus, with comfortable seating if a little tight and free Wi-Fi if a little patchy and slow. For the low fare, it was great. Loading was a little on the low side (25-30 out of 87) but I'm sure this will pick up with new routes and more promotion.

I can see why ADAC Postbus is rated as the best operator for comfort and service. The prices tend to be a little higher than other operators, however they offer "frills" such as allocated seating and tag all luggage. The coaches are higher-spec than the others (very comfortable seats and above average legroom) and have fast reliable Wi-Fi which lets you access a free movie streaming service via App. Drivers are super professional and a safety and entertainment video is shown to boarding passengers. Feels very airline like. The departure was 8 minutes late and they texted me and emailed as well. Recommended.

 

[radamfi]

At first glance, iDBUS appear to be offering through fares from Paris and Brussels onto (ADAC) Postbus services from Cologne to many German cities:

http://www.idbus.com/i-am-prolonging-my-trip-germany

but you have to book the iDBUS and Postbus journeys separately. The journey suggestions give you as little as 50 minute connection time. It is unclear whether Postbus would convey you on the next service if you miss the connection.

This development would indicate that iDBUS have no plans to expand further into Germany, and likewise Postbus seem unlikely to start up routes to Paris or Brussels, and by logical extrapolation, London.

 

[radamfi]

Flixbus are now running services fully outside of Germany. If you look at the MeinFernbus/Flixbus route network:

http://meinfernbus.de/en/unser-angebot/liniennetz

you can see there are now routes from Amsterdam to Paris, The Hague/Rotterdam to Paris and from Maastricht/Liege to Paris. When browsing, I have seen some fares between Paris and Amsterdam for 1 euro. The Hague to Paris doesn't seem to be bookable as yet.

From Paris to Amsterdam there is now the choice of Flixbus, Megabus, iDBUS and Eurolines.

 

[davetheguard]

Any one know if you can turn up on the day and buy a ticket from the coach driver?

We're off to Germany for two weeks at the end of May and are obviously worried we're going to get stuck somewhere because of the rail strikes.

It looks like DB are running some IC(E) routes on strike days that will cover us for the main leg of most of our journeys, with the notable exception of a Dresden - Heidelberg journey. There appears to be no IC(E) trains planned to run to Dresden at all, apart from the EC ones south to/from Prague.

We might be O.K. if we can get a coach Dresden to Berlin and get a train from there, so any advice on using the coach would be useful.......

The only other option I've looked at is a flight from Dresden to Duesseldorf; but we can't book in advance because we don't know the strike days yet, and paying on the day (if seats available) would presumably be pretty pricy!

 

[radamfi]

The rules on ticket purchase vary by company but by far the biggest firm (MeinFernbus/Flixbus) allow you to pay the driver in cash. But that assumes there are spare seats. Maybe seats will be more scarce on train strike days. I would recommend buying a ticket online. The website is easy to use and is in English. The MeinFernbus app is even easier. You can change booking very easily using the app without penalty, up to 15 minutes before departure.

 

[WestCoast]

Any one know if you can turn up on the day and buy a ticket from the coach driver?

We're off to Germany for two weeks at the end of May and are obviously worried we're going to get stuck somewhere because of the rail strikes.

It looks like DB are running some IC(E) routes on strike days that will cover us for the main leg of most of our journeys, with the notable exception of a Dresden - Heidelberg journey. There appears to be no IC(E) trains planned to run to Dresden at all, apart from the EC ones south to/from Prague.

We might be O.K. if we can get a coach Dresden to Berlin and get a train from there, so any advice on using the coach would be useful.......!

The coach network is very extensive and on certain corridors, the journey times are not massively longer than the train.

I'd recommend www.busradar.com, it shows all the coach connections between cities on a given day, where they leave from and the current prices (with a link to book on each official website). You can also book via Mobile Apps and display the ticket there as well. There's a coach about every 30 minutes from Dresden to Berlin looking at tomorrow. Tickets are still available from about €6 upwards.

On Dresden to Berlin, you can definitely buy tickets onboard MeinFernbus/Flixbus and Postbus services, subject to seating availability. Postbus allocates seats. The pricing tends to be quite a bit higher than if you were to book even a few hours in advance online or at an office. Berlinlinienbus I am not entirely sure about onboard tickets. Megabus you definitely can't.

There's also a couple of services direct from Dresden to Heidelberg on MeinFernbus.

 

[duesselmartin]

deleted

 

[WestCoast]

Just completed a Megabus overnight trip from Munich ZOB (depart 23.00) to Berlin ZOB (arrive 08.45). For €7.50 nothing I could really complain about, however I did think the timings seemed a little long. We ran far too early the whole way, even taking into account a 20 mins stop at a service station before Nuremberg, a 30 mins driver drop-off and stop near Bayreuth and then another one for 40 mins before Leipzig. We also had to wait a 10-15 mins extra at each passenger stop. MeinFernbus seems to be timetabled to take 1-2.5 hours less on the same route, even though many of their services have more scheduled passenger stops than Megabus with just two. Odd.

 

[radamfi]

Just completed a Megabus overnight trip from Munich ZOB (depart 23.00) to Berlin ZOB (arrive 08.45). For €7.50 nothing I could really complain about, however I did think the timings seemed a little long. We ran far too early the whole way, even taking into account a 20 mins stop at a service station before Nuremberg, a 30 mins driver drop-off and stop near Bayreuth and then another one for 40 mins before Leipzig. We also had to wait a 10-15 mins extra at each passenger stop. MeinFernbus seems to be timetabled to take 1-2.5 hours less on the same route, even though many of their services have more scheduled passenger stops than Megabus with just two. Odd.

Was Megabus the lowest fare, or did you choose them for another reason? What were the loadings like?

 

[WestCoast]

Was Megabus the lowest fare, or did you choose them for another reason? What were the loadings like?

Solely based on the very low fare of €7.50, which was booked about two weeks before. A similar late night departure on MeinFernbus was around €23.00 and Postbus €25.00 (on their new overnight Munich - Berlin service).

The passenger load was not all that high, I'd say around 25%-30% leaving Munich, a couple of people joined in Nuremberg and a number of morning travellers boarded in Leipzig making it around 40%. It was however a Saturday evening/Sunday morning trip, and judging by the higher fares on Friday evening I'd say it has been busier.

I was glad it was fairly quiet as the legroom is pretty low in comparison to the other operators, as they seem to squeeze in 87(?) seats on the continental Astromegas - is this the same as the UK? If the difference was less than 10 euros I'd definetely take Postbus or MeinFernbus for the legroom alone.

 

[radamfi]

the legroom is pretty low in comparison to the other operators, as they seem to squeeze in 87(?) seats on the continental Astromegas - is this the same as the UK?

The first Astromegas bought for the Oxford Tube in 2009 had 87 seats

http://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/070809 - The new Oxford tube Van Hool fleet.htm

This Megabus vehicle registered in 2011/12 also has 87 seats

https://www.flickr.com/photos/scottishcoachman/6912161170

The new Oxford Tube Astromegas have 81 seats

http://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/new-astromegas-oxford-tube/

 

[WestCoast]

I see, well I thought it was just me but I got chatting to a few other guys on the coach and they said exactly the same. All of us were not taller than average. I've been on a Megabus UK Astromega once and an 87 seater Oxford Tube twice and I don't remember it being so tight. I returned to Munich today on a daytime Meinfernbus Setra double decker and it felt a lot more roomy, maybe I've just got used to that! The other long-distance companies in Germany really market their comfort (legroom, great Wifi, media centre snacks and drinks onboard etc), so Megabus Germany should, and no doubt will, carve their niche by leading on price on core routes.

 

[radamfi]

Souter discusses the German approach to coach deregulation in this interview

http://www.route-one.net/industry/album-conference-sir-brians-big-idea/

The de-regulated market in Germany has seen many start-up express bus operators, usually by young people. “They travel to the UK and Boston and look at what we are all doing.

“They are very different, just like Ann and I were in the 1980s. But these guys’ start-ups are totally different; they don’t need engineers.

“Instead they are just retailers, doing all these amazing apps and information about the bus services, and they’ve got other people doing the bus services for them. It’s like a Rolls-Royce version of the UK National Express model.”

He cites one company that has 85 people in its head office, “and a high proportion of them are just doing technology. At Stagecoach we have five people in Manchester who do every IT job, but there’s a waiting list for all our companies waiting for IT to develop the next product.”

These new companies “are really different. You go into meetings and they’ve got network guys and a ‘geek’. And the ‘geeks’ are really important people. They are going to make a fortune.

“The ‘geeks’ are the answer to all of this.

“We don’t have enough, or any, ‘geeks’ in most of our bus companies. This is a wake-up call. These new companies are very dynamic and the structure is very different, as the mix of skills is quite different from what we would have.

“I’d still have an engineer on my team because I’m old-fashioned and I’d want to know that the buses are all right. But they don’t have an engineer; they’ve got commercial people and ‘geeks’ who do all the ‘mod cons’.

The strategy for Megabus has perplexed me. I fully expected them to be ahead of the game for German coach deregulation, but they let National Express get in there first. After NX gave up, I thought that maybe they deliberately avoided wading in because of the severe competition. But in that case, how do we explain their belated, and comparably small scale, entry into the market? It is almost as if they prefer to wait for one company to become very dominant, like National Express in the UK and now Meinfernbus/Flixbus in Germany.

One parallel is that Meinfernbus/Flixbus looks to be interested in running a very comprehensive network, covering many smaller towns as well as the obvious major cities. In the UK, Megabus do not aim to serve everywhere that National Express do. On competing routes, Megabus usually only serve the main stops and often run non-stop. In Germany, Megabus only serve the major cities at the moment. Of course, they have just started, but maybe they only intend to compete on the major routes and only serve the main stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One parallel is that Meinfernbus/Flixbus looks to be interested in running a very comprehensive network, covering many smaller towns as well as the obvious major cities. In the UK, Megabus do not aim to serve everywhere that National Express do. On competing routes, Megabus usually only serve the main stops and often run non-stop. In Germany, Megabus only serve the major cities at the moment. Of course, they have just started, but maybe they only intend to compete on the major routes and only serve the main stops.

It doesn't seem an entirely poor business plan to let others waste their money working out what is profitable and what is not, then to wade in with a better offer on the profitable bits alone. Perhaps questionable morally, but since when did cut-throat business competition of that kind have morals?

 

[anme]

Souter discusses the German approach to coach deregulation in this interview

http://www.route-one.net/industry/album-conference-sir-brians-big-idea/

Thanks, very interesting article.

A couple of points... Firstly, the 'geeks' are actually engineers too. And secondly, I agree with Souter that new technology is a huge opportunity for public transport of all types.

I have a pet theory that the growth in UK rail use in the last 20 years is (partly) connected to much easier access to service and timetable information. In the 90s, we saw the introduction of a proper National Rail Enquiries phone service, with a single easy to remember number. Then the mass adoption of mobile phones meant that people could call this service from anywhere. And then the rise of the internet meant we could access the information directly ourselves.

Before this, planning a train journey meant either find a phone book and calling some local number for timetable information (available during daytime only), or hoping that you had an up to date timetable somewhere. Or turning up at the station and hoping for the best. Technology and connectivity has made it much more practical to use and rely on public transport.

 

[WestCoast]

I have a pet theory that the growth in UK rail use in the last 20 years is (partly) connected to much easier access to service and timetable information. In the 90s, we saw the introduction of a proper National Rail Enquiries phone service, with a single easy to remember number.

It's an excellent point and one that I would tend to agree with. I do wonder if there have been any studies into the role of technology in this area.

I suppose you could say that Megabus is still probably about 5 years behind in its technology. The website, while functional, I find a little clunky and not as user friendly or aesthetically pleasing as the new German operators or even National Express. It's a little reminiscent of the old Ryanair website (without the horrendous booking process ).

MeinFernbus (among others) issue the drivers of their partner firms with smartphones, allowing them to quickly board passengers by just scanning the code on their printed ticket or displayed on another smartphone. This means they can check the loading in real time and sell tickets to any turn up and go passengers. I think they can also receive service alerts in this manner too (when they're not driving).

Megabus Germany like their other divisions rely on a printed manifest with codes, a budget solution indeed but one wonders if technology might save them time and open new revenue streams. At the very least, they need an app which offers booking functionality.
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Thanks, very interesting article.

I also find it interesting that Souter wanted to go in partnership with easyGroup, that certainly could have been a power brand in the UK and eventually Europe. However, it does seem that Megabus has achieved it whereas easyBus is limited to airport transfers (but they are managing steady growth through partnerships).

 

[radamfi]

Before this, planning a train journey meant either find a phone book and calling some local number for timetable information (available during daytime only), or hoping that you had an up to date timetable somewhere. Or turning up at the station and hoping for the best. Technology and connectivity has made it much more practical to use and rely on public transport.

I have never thought about this before, and I can't fault your logic. I probably didn't notice because I was one of the few people who bought the nationwide timetable book so I did know what was available. I would even scroll the many pages of Ceefax checking for weekend engineering work. Looking back I realise this was far too much effort for most normal people. The Dutch national train timetable book was a best-seller in that country though, and that may have help to lift patronage high in the pre-internet age.

Coach travel was similarly tricky. I never really bothered with coaches until online booking started around 2002. UK providers are definitely behind the game in technology. Bizarrely, National Express have had barcodes on their e-tickets for years but I've never seen a coach driver scan it. Even easyBus who you would have thought would be particularly innovative insist on tickets being printed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a pet theory that the growth in UK rail use in the last 20 years is (partly) connected to much easier access to service and timetable information.

I have long thought that journey planners, particularly mobile based ones, are the best thing that ever happened to public transport in recent years. Multimodal ones even better - I have made train+bus journeys more recently that it would have been prohibitive to organise before such planners made the timetable information accessible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also find it interesting that Souter wanted to go in partnership with easyGroup, that certainly could have been a power brand in the UK and eventually Europe. However, it does seem that Megabus has achieved it whereas easyBus is limited to airport transfers (but they are managing steady growth through partnerships).

That certainly makes a few things add up! Though what I don't get about easyBus is the use of minibuses. OK, that means they can use cheaper drivers, but surely the low-cost model works on high(ish) volumes of passengers with a wide variety of fare levels? You don't after all see low-cost airlines operating Cessnas or even Fokker 50s.

Souter, of course, started something that was far closer in its model to easyJet, though the latter of course is unusual in terms of using smaller A319 rather than the larger A320/B737-800 aircraft. Though that said EZY are increasingly moving towards A320s, so maybe they realised that mistake.

 

[WestCoast]

That certainly makes a few things add up! Though what I don't get about easyBus is the use of minibuses. OK, that means they can use cheaper drivers, but surely the low-cost model works on high(ish) volumes of passengers with a wide variety of fare levels? You don't after all see low-cost airlines operating Cessnas or even Fokker 50s.

Souter, of course, started something that was far closer in its model to easyJet, though the latter of course is unusual in terms of using smaller A319 rather than the larger A320/B737-800 aircraft. Though that said EZY are increasingly moving towards A320s, so maybe they realised that mistake.

I do not think I can recall easyBus (or Terravision) being discussed at all on the forum actually One perspective on the minbus use is that it mimics a (shared) airport shuttle that is so common around the world. A little bit faster than a large coach on congested routes and allows the flexibility to offer connections at very high frequency, especially where demand is thinner when there are less flights. Having said that, I cannot see the model being feasible away from airports.

easyJet these days sees its competition in the UK market as BA and Flybe and the A319 allows them the flexbility to offer high frequencies on more business routes like Gatwick to Scottish Airports, as well as access smaller markets such as the Isle of Man, Inverness and Jersey. The A320 suits the longer routes far better, so therefore it seems ideal to have a mix of two since they are part of the same aircraft family.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not think I can recall easyBus (or Terravision) being discussed at all on the forum actually One perspective on the minbus use is that it mimics a (shared) airport shuttle that is so common around the world. A little bit faster than a large coach on congested routes and allows the flexibility to offer connections at very high frequency, especially where demand is thinner when there are less flights. Having said that, I cannot see the model being feasible away from airports.

Which might be why they've tended around there. Drivers are also cheaper (D1) than full coach drivers.

Though the first trial route was Milton Keynes-Brent Cross (for London), which was about as mad an attempt as you could imagine - a route provided with excellent train services with quite reasonable fares due to competition between LM and VT, and Nat Ex having plenty of services for anyone who really wants a coach. It was run under contract by the then MK Metro (now Arriva).

I don't understand why they didn't start out with something more like Megabus - or even something like a longer distance route of known high demand like Manchester to London.

 

[radamfi]

Right at the beginning, easyBus announced they wanted to run a London to Birmingham service. This was before Megabus started. But we waited and waited and eventually they started the Brent Cross to Milton Keynes service. The easyGroup had the easyCinema there so it was kind of a cross-promotion. I guess we now know that the reason there was such a delay was due to the discussion with Souter. By the time the Milton Keynes route started, Megabus had already started running and the first long distance Megabus route was London to Birmingham, so I assume that easyBus didn't want to compete with them. Maybe Souter even warned them off competing on inter-city routes.

Bizarrely, easyBus complained that National Express was using predatory pricing between London and Milton Keynes. This was when NX had Funfares from London to Glasgow from £1. NX never advertised a £1 fare between London and Milton Keynes but as stopping short is allowed on Funfares, it was technically valid for that journey.

easyBus seems to behave illogically sometimes, including their new Heathrow service which seems an unlikely route to be profitable, given there is such a cheap Tube alternative.

 

[radamfi]

Megabus Deutschland now has its own Facebook page, so maybe they are getting serious about being big in Germany.

https://www.facebook.com/megabus.com.deutschland/

The UK Megabus doesn't have a Facebook presence, apart from the "Sid from Megabus" page which is just for fun.

Meinfernbus/Flixbus and Megabus appear to be entering the Italian market at around the same time so it will be interesting to see what happens there. They already have coaches in Italy but there is no national network.