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Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

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chubs

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Were their 'one' days better?

'One' did very little to the rural fleet which have finally seen attention by greater anglia but did bring in mk3s to the intercity route and refreshed these (though that was a very modest job)

It was nice that a lot of the fleet was in one livery, it didn't really look that and either once you had gotten used to it.

One cant take credit for the mk3's, that would have happened anyway. As would the refurbishment.

The mk3 refurbishment may look superficial but they were nasty when they arrived, some went straight into passenger service with 'Virgin' peeled off and they really were in a grim state with many toilets out of use and interiors in a poor cosmetic state.

That said the mk2's were pretty ropey at the end of their life too. I dread to think what the ones still in use as charter carriages look like 10 years later!
 
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It was nice that a lot of the fleet was in one livery, it didn't really look that and either once you had gotten used to it.

One cant take credit for the mk3's, that would have happened anyway. As would the refurbishment.

The mk3 refurbishment may look superficial but they were nasty when they arrived, some went straight into passenger service with 'Virgin' peeled off and they really were in a grim state with many toilets out of use and interiors in a poor cosmetic state.

That said the mk2's were pretty ropey at the end of their life too. I dread to think what the ones still in use as charter carriages look like 10 years later!

Here is a rather geeky question reagrding 'one'

I know they changed the livery from metallic grey to blue but the bottom stripe on the rainbow changed to a deeper shade on the 315s and mk3s compared to the 156/170 etc why was this? To stand out more or because the bottom shade was lighter than the other stripes and didnt look right?
 

samuelmorris

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When NX took over in 2004 it could be argued little investment was necessary at the time - the 360s obviously were almost brand new, the 315s were a bit dated but were at least refreshed to make them easier to use, ditching the annoying pneumatic door controls, the 321s hadn't that long been refreshed so were in reasonable shape.
What was done, however, (acquisition of 90s and Mk3s and the 315 refresh programme) was done on the cheap - it took until Abellio's franchise, to their credit, to add PIS to the 315s (though they still haven't finished even now) and the Mk3s were, as I understand it (I don't use them) pretty much as-was, despite being a little worn from Virgin's use near end-of-service.
The 379 fleet introduction for WAML, defective door buttons aside, seemed like it was 'done properly' though. Plenty of units were ordered and they were proper new units to decent specification. The 321s from Silverlink though, saw little attention until Abellio took over, admittedly.

Comparatively speaking NX did more for the fleet than Abellio have done, but Abellio haven't done nothing, just sorted out the 321/4s and introduced a set of inconsistent liveries (disregarding the LHCS refresh which has just started). That being said, the stock which has seen little or minimal attention is far more in need of it now than it was then.
321s still running around in FGW's late-90s interiors in 2005 was fine. 2015, they're getting on a bit. Despite that though, they're perfectly serviceable inside, and just cleaning the windows and floors as well as changing a few seat covers would be plenty sufficient. I have to say I very rarely board a 321 and think 'ugh, look at the state of it on here'. I do for the 360s though, simply because I also use South West's 450s. The difference there is night and day.
 

450.emu

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When NX took over in 2004 it could be argued little investment was necessary at the time - the 360s obviously were almost brand new, the 315s were a bit dated but were at least refreshed to make them easier to use, ditching the annoying pneumatic door controls, the 321s hadn't that long been refreshed so were in reasonable shape.
What was done, however, (acquisition of 90s and Mk3s and the 315 refresh programme) was done on the cheap - it took until Abellio's franchise, to their credit, to add PIS to the 315s (though they still haven't finished even now) and the Mk3s were, as I understand it (I don't use them) pretty much as-was, despite being a little worn from Virgin's use near end-of-service.
The 379 fleet introduction for WAML, defective door buttons aside, seemed like it was 'done properly' though. Plenty of units were ordered and they were proper new units to decent specification. The 321s from Silverlink though, saw little attention until Abellio took over, admittedly.

Comparatively speaking NX did more for the fleet than Abellio have done, but Abellio haven't done nothing, just sorted out the 321/4s and introduced a set of inconsistent liveries (disregarding the LHCS refresh which has just started). That being said, the stock which has seen little or minimal attention is far more in need of it now than it was then.
321s still running around in FGW's late-90s interiors in 2005 was fine. 2015, they're getting on a bit. Despite that though, they're perfectly serviceable inside, and just cleaning the windows and floors as well as changing a few seat covers would be plenty sufficient. I have to say I very rarely board a 321 and think 'ugh, look at the state of it on here'. I do for the 360s though, simply because I also use South West's 450s. The difference there is night and day.

+1

Having used the service since the 'one' days, I think on certain lines maintenance and general appearance have been allowed to slide - I know the rougher parts of the West Anglia line (as far as Edmonton Green) has never been the easiest, but then even on the more genteel parts of the network like Hythe (just after Colchester) simple things like inspectors to check your ticket, or sell you one (used to be common on SWT back in the day where an inspector can print one off from his machine) wouldn't have gone amiss.

They have made some improvements (the new ticket office in Bishops Stortford is nice) and the staff are really nice. SWT seem to have the same age range of trains yet the presentation is light years away. Even the 456's inherited from Southern have been repainted, refurbished once entering service.

I'm sure AGA started with good intentions, but I'm not sure what made them lose momentum so quickly :cry:
 

AM9

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This is getting absurd now. I use AGA trains every day all day for my job and I don't have "flea bites". All the pictures of seat cushions all over the place is because passengers throw them about. The staff don't go through the trains chucking litter everywhere, the passengers do. Passengers need to take some responsibility and direct some of their anger towards each other. Holding the doors open for their mates at stations is another example. An extra minute or two at each station in the peak soon adds up and knocks on. On the GE, the majority of peak trains are as long as they can be and as frequent as they can be. Yes the interiors are a bit dated, but on the whole they are adequate. As I mentioned before I am on GA trains all day every day and I am very rarely delayed by anything substantial. I think this is a lot of people getting angry unreasonably, and in my opinion you could give them solid gold trains spotless everyday and they would still moan about something.

In general term I agree with all that you say, especially the bit about rubbish coming from passengers not the TOC however...
Today I went on an Abellio 317 (317510 actually) from LST to TOM, and its state was simply hrrible. The carpet had that sticky pub-food coating, the panels by the door areas had almost burn-marks with the laminate cracking, everything else was just covered with grime. That can't all be down to the pax. The thameslink 319s come in for some serious complaints, but I've never seen one as bad as this 317.
I returned to LST on a 379, which was fine, clean and in reasonable condition. I then went to Stratford on an Ipswich-bound 360. The seats were a bit worn but fit for use, and like the 379, the coach was clean.
It seems that Abellio have just given up on the 317s. Are they end-of-lease?
 

Dave1987

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Are you sure the metro services are the main revenue earner? If I recall correctly, the figures I seem to remember Ian quoting actually seemed to suggest that the mainline commuter services (Southend, Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester) produced the bulk of the revenue - it's easy to see why, usage of Chelmsford station for example is 8 million pa, triple that of stations like Goodmayes and Chadwell Heath, and fares are going to be far higher due to being three times the distance, and a higher cost per mile due to being outside the TfL fare zones.

I'm sure the metro services did earn AGA a fair bit with fully-laden trains that cost comparatively little to maintain running over a dozen times an hour in peak, but with much lower fares inside the M25, I don't think it'll hurt them too much.

Chelmsford yes is a huge revenue base but I would definitely say the metros are a bigger revenue base than the rest.
 

chubs

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So are there any dead trains at ilford long term out of use then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and the Mk3s were, as I understand it (I don't use them) pretty much as-was, despite being a little worn from Virgin's use near end-of-service.

The ones that went straight into service weren't a 'little' worn, they were trashed. I travelled on them a lot around that time.

The refurbishment added new seat covers, carpets, reupholstering of other materials and fixing all the broken bits including the toilets.

The difference was immense!
 

dk1

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So are there any dead trains at ilford long term out of use then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The ones that went straight into service weren't a 'little' worn, they were trashed. I travelled on them a lot around that time.

The refurbishment added new seat covers, carpets, reupholstering of other materials and fixing all the broken bits including the toilets.

The difference was immense!

Throughout the plans & then during the refurb NX was constantly advised to install plug sockets but refused. That was a real mistake which was acknowledged when it was too late.
 

jon0844

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Now so many trains are getting plug sockets, we're at a point where it would be better to offer USB ports and wireless charging plates embedded in tables!

Wonder who will be first with wireless charging (some stock now has USB)? My guess is it won't be AGA!
 

Dave1987

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I think is funny that we live in a country where peoples biggest priority for their train journey is to have a power socket to charge their mobile device and wifi to keep on the internet.
 

jon0844

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I think is funny that we live in a country where peoples biggest priority for their train journey is to have a power socket to charge their mobile device and wifi to keep on the internet.
Just the way it is though. I'm at Tottenham Hale on here with my phone and everyone else is on their phone too. And battery life as it is in modern electronics means a power point is probably considered a basic human right these days!

Wi-Fi I'm less bothered about as 4G (and even 3G) is 95% of the time far superior and I've got absolutely no limits or throttling.
 

Dave1987

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Just the way it is though. I'm at Tottenham Hale on here with my phone and everyone else is on their phone too. And battery life as it is in modern electronics means a power point is probably considered a basic human right these days!

Wi-Fi I'm less bothered about as 4G (and even 3G) is 95% of the time far superior and I've got absolutely no limits or throttling.

Indeed its amazing how things have changed in just the last 5 years! When you stand on any station platform 90% of people are engrossed in their device. I'm not offering an opinion on whether it's good or bad, just intriguing how mobile devices have made power supply a necessity to the modern travelling public.
 

tsr

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Earlier track repairs have caused disruption to services over Trowse Swing Bridge. I'd be interested to know what went wrong. AGA have done the right thing and added extra stops where they have been able to, to cover cancellations.

Re. power sockets, I was pretty pleased to see these (and in what seemed sensible positions) on 379s. I wonder if these operate on the same supply for anything in the catering trolley cupboard. Some Bombardier stock have very visible catering outlets, eg. 171s, which are often controlled by hidden switches in things like local door panels.
 

TheEdge

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Earlier track repairs have caused disruption to services over Trowse Swing Bridge. I'd be interested to know what went wrong. AGA have done the right thing and added extra stops where they have been able to, to cover cancellations.

Broken fishplates on the bridge. Not AGAs fault and with the SSOs on mainlines and reformations on Cambridges well handed but I'm sure Mr Edwards et al are blaming AGA already.
 

tsr

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Broken fishplates on the bridge. Not AGAs fault and with the SSOs on mainlines and reformations on Cambridges well handed but I'm sure Mr Edwards et al are blaming AGA already.

Interesting. Thanks for the detail, as I don't get the in-depth gen about everything on the Anglia side. Naturally I would not blame AGA but thought it may be of general interest.
 

chubs

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The only long term trains out of service at Ilford are 317722 (demonstrator) and a 315 that was damaged in a derailment in the yard.

Good to know. will the demonstrator or 315 be making a return to service?

Actually I guess the 315 isnt / wont be AGA's any more?
 

Shunter_69

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The 315 will be out of service for quite a while (rumours are 12 months). Not sure about the 317 but assume it'll be back at some point if they are hoping to demonstrate at some point ??????
 

jon0844

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The 317 demonstrator needs to be done throughout. Half the train is still disgusting, and it's not as if most passengers are walking up and down, or even aware that two carriages are nice and two a right state.
 

387star

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The 317 demonstrator needs to be done throughout. Half the train is still disgusting, and it's not as if most passengers are walking up and down, or even aware that two carriages are nice and two a right state.

Seems utterly bizarre only doing part the train and the livery is embarrassing

Surely they have the results from passenger feedback now regarding the 321 and 317/7
 

samuelmorris

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SWT is a largely fair comparison I would argue. An even more complex network than AGA (but with better track routing to allow trains to pass etc.) with an even more diverse fleet.
The 455s are essentially identical age to Abellio's 317s, The 456s are only marginally newer than the 321s, the 450s are only marginally newer than the 360s in most cases, and the 159s are older than the 170s, slightly newer than the sprinters.
We'll disregard the 444 vs Mk3 comparison for fairness.


AM9: I do keep trying to bring this up. There's a lot of people banging on about the 321s needing replacement but whenever pictures are posted of seats having been broken off and other more alarming defects, it's a 317 in the picture. Some of them are pretty rough on the inside, whereas most 321s make me think 'meh, a bit dirty, but nothing too serious'.
One could also argue based on their cleanliness that they've also 'given up' on the 360s, but they aren't quite old enough yet to have fallen apart as a result.

Dave: As a relatively short-distance commuter, plug sockets on my commute are still a distant dream and I practically laugh at the novelty of it when I occasionally use 377/6 and /7s out to Wandsworth Common to visit a client - I expect it on long-distance stock and they're useful (when they work!) but nationwide their scarcity and unreliability means I'd still never leave my portable charger behind.

The 321 demonstrator I will defend from some criticism apart from the terrible doors, but the 317 demonstrator (confession - I've been near it, but not on it, but seen enough footage of it) looks dreadful. A barely noticeable livery change doesn't draw any attention to it, the 'old vs new' comparison is silly if the 'old' half is left to rot, and the 'new' isn't even very good, it really looks like a cut down job compared to the 321.
Also, for a new traction pack, how come they still sound like the same traction motors? Surely they didn't put an IGBT controller in for DC motors did they?
Edit: Read up on it, seemingly some adaptation took place to fit them in the existing bogies - presumably some of the gearing is still there, just the traction motors themselves and the controller are different. One wonders whether such a scheme 'across the board' would bring the same sort of reliability improvements...
 
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jon0844

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The seats on the 317 demonstrator just appear to be the same as on a 387. Very thin and upright. Add in a vinyl floor and that's about it.

BUT, that's probably all that's needed for a refurb that is easy to clean and gives more legroom simply on account of the seats being that bit thinner.

The vestibules are improved too. I did post a lot of photos on here when I was on it, and thought it okay. Walk through from the new to old and it's like stepping back in time (or forward in time). Perhaps people can debate which way is which....!
 

hassaanhc

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First 317/6 refurbished unit nearing completion :)

CGRQssSWoAEg6uz.jpg

https://twitter.com/greateranglia/status/604696978971348992
 

dk1

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Doors, doors, doors!!! They are the worst thing about these earlier units from this era i& includes the 150s. Those darn internal end doors get left open so keep swinging & lumping, then theres the sliding exterior ones that BANG when passing other trains at speed making me jump even when i know its going to happen. Shame these issues never get sorted. Other than that it's quite a nice refresh.
 

MrPIC

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wow looks lovely! Those seat covers are very nice, just shows how they brush up well with a bit of TLC!
 

387star

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Oh wow that looks incredible

They already have an excellent interior from WAGN days liking the upholstery

Regarding internal doors to make them fully compliant they need different handles unsure if these units have toilets but they will need doing as well

Is it getting the full livery ?
Notice the carpet has been reduced to the vestibules same as the 365

This refurbishment was promised by national express east anglia many years ago along with the class 321s but never materialised except three units which were oddly refurbished and the class 321 which before franchise change over reverted into former first great eastern interior
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The twitter comments are depressing especially from greater anglia complaints they deserve credit where credit is due not more moaning
 
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prod_pep

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That looks like quite a nice moquette they've gone for there. Better than the NX style one in the 379s at least.

Sorry to ask a slightly irrelevant question but does anyone know which particular 315 is long-term out of service, please? I ask because I only have four 315s left to ride and was hoping to clear them in the coming weeks.
 

samuelmorris

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Interesting thing is that when they refreshed the 321s similarly they changed the door handles for the internal doors from the frankly awkward circular ones to actual door handles which are much easier to use - I don't really know why they've regressed with the 317s. I did legitimately ask GA what sort of timescale they anticipated for completing all the /6s to this standard and they didn't know. Seems a little odd as usually jobs like this do have some sort of target completion date, unless there's no project management going on at all and they're just 'doing it when there's some spare time' - which would seem a bit lax. I'm assuming there probably is a planned date and the twitter team just don't have access to it, otherwise it does make a rather worrying statement about how the depot is managed!

Shame to see they're still using the same defective type of PIS though. I was really hoping Abellio would have learnt about that by now. I'm guessing it's cheap.
 

jon0844

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The twitter comments are depressing especially from greater anglia complaints they deserve credit where credit is due not more moaning

I Tweeted delayed_again today to say;

'So did everything go swimmingly on LO today? Besides the cancelled trains, incorrectly spelt station signs, lack of info...'

And he replied 'day one....give them a chance....they are going to spend millions...take a while to sort out abellios mess and neglect!'

Funny how he cuts AGA no slack whatsoever, but TfL mess up and cancel loads of trains, can't spell station names, can't give information to passengers etc and it's all fine.

I assume he's already found a million things wrong with the refurbed 317/6 image above!
 

samuelmorris

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The station names thing is stupid but I visited Theobald's Grove station last week, didn't use the train but the network rail poster outside also spells it wrong (Theobolds) - if I had to hazard a guess I'd say the sign is wrong for the same reason. Might be LO's fault but I'm not certain.

As for 'messing up and cancelling loads of trains' - not exactly true. I went over the stats for tfl rail yesterday in fine detail and the only two cancellations (both only part cancellations) seemed to tie in with even bigger delays on Abellio services sharing the same line. For performance figures it was a disappointing day, but far from the disaster you suggest.
If I'm totally honest it sounds like you're just trying to make a counter viewpoint to Ian rather than sticking with factual info. Demonising the TOC it is hoped will right Abellio's wrongs does not make you any better than demonising Abellio.

Today is where things really matter, when the service is unimpeded by AGA track sharing and when passenger volume is high. Of course, you should know as well as we do you can't turn around any issue with an incumbent in just one day, that goes for almost any industry, not just the railways.
 
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