Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[northwichcat]

Marple, Harrogate, Barton on Humber.

And for anyone who doesn't realise only two of those routes will be with Northern from April 2016.

 

[MarkyT]

In all honesty I can see countries like Romania, Bulgaria, etc buying them but I can't imagine any take-up in the UK.

Not really practical as the units are designed for UK high platforms. Those eastern European countries tend to take second-hand stock from France, Italy and Germany and they can usually be put into service quickly with very few modifications (only signalling protection and communications system to suit local standards, as well as labels and notices in cabs and passenger accommodation). I know some class 87 electric locomotives went east, but platform compatibility wasn't a problem in that case.

 

[northwichcat]

When i drove my 165 to Bicester last night i quite happily blasted along at 75mph (where the line speeds allow of course)

Was that a stopping service between Princes Risborough and Marylebone or one of the ones that only stops at one station?

 

[t_star2001uk]

No a semi fast service. Even the 23.03 from Aylesbury to Marylebone can get up a fair turn of speed between stations.

Any way ive got to go to work now and play with a 68.......

 

[D365]

Not really practical as the units are designed for UK high platforms. Those eastern European countries tend to take second-hand stock from France, Italy and Germany and they can usually be put into service quickly with very few modifications (only signalling protection and communications system to suit local standards, as well as labels and notices in cabs and passenger accommodation).

I'm sure Iran will be happy to receive some D-Trains... to make up for the Class 141 Pacers

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure Iran will be happy to receive some D-Trains... to make up for the Class 141 Pacers

They got brand new DMUs from Korea to replace them, so they've got better trains than us currently!

 

[D365]

They got brand new DMUs from Korea to replace them, so they've got better trains than us currently!

That's the irony of it!
[Wonder when we'll hear more about the 120 carriages for Northern]

 

[t_star2001uk]

Was that a stopping service between Princes Risborough and Marylebone or one of the ones that only stops at one station?

Anyway just for clarity. The service 1U58. The unit 165038. Maximum speed between station.

Beaconsfield-High Wycombe 75mph
High Wycombe-Saunderton 75mph
Saunderton-Princes Risboro 75mph
Princes Risboro-Haddenham 75mph
Haddenham-Bicester 75mph
Bicester-King Sutton 75mph
King Sutton-Banbury 75mph

So why would we throw a 60mph unit in to a service designed for a minimum of 75mph.

 

[FordFocus]

A 60mph unit on a line that is mostly 100mph would virtually destroy the Chiltern timetable overnight if introduced.

A long shot would be for it to be introduced on Aylesbury to London using the LUL. Mostly 60mph south of Amersham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A long shot would be for it to be introduced on Aylesbury to London using the LUL. Mostly 60mph south of Amersham.

I think that is what was being suggested. An even longer shot is to keep the shoes and only run on diesel north of Amersham.

 

[t_star2001uk]

An even better bet is Chiltern not having them at all....

 

[RPM]

Or as I said pages and pages ago, used as bubble car replacements on the AYS-PRR branch (assuming there is still a requirement for shuttle services, post E-W Rail. Absolutely no chance of them appearing on the Chiltern Main Line for pathing reasons. Very unlikely to appear on the Met either. The last thing that line needs is extended journey times. Currently there is 75mph running between WND-GMN, GMN-AMR and HOH-Neasden on the up and between Neasden-HOH, AMR-GMN, GMN-WND and WND-SKM on the down. A 60mph restriction would add 5 to 10 minutes to a journey time which already compares unfavourably to equivalent London Midland WCML journeys.

 

[WatcherZero]

Now MTU are launching a tri-mode powerpack that combines Bi-mode with battery storage and is 3B compliant I think last hurdle to competitive new build DMU has fallen.

 

[northwichcat]

So basically the only reasons for not using them on Chiltern are the same as for not using them on other local operations.

 

[t_star2001uk]

So basically the only reasons for not using them on Chiltern are the same as for not using them on other local operations.

IMHO the only piece of track on the Chiltern network that would be suitable for D-Train operation would be Princes Risboro-Aylesbury, other than that they would be totally unsuitable for mainline operations on the Chiltern network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst all and sundry are fantasising to their heart's delights on this thread as to possible uses of these "Second-hand Rose items" on the British rail network, have any further intimations been forthcoming from Vivarail as to their current thoughts on this particular matter?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good article. I was about to post a different one. 26kmph doesn't sound fast (even for these SnailRail trains).

Would it survive a crash at 50mph is what matters.

Perhaps Vivarail are keeping their options open on a 60mph top speed and are looking at something in the region of running their "incubus" at a more realistic speed, hence the speed of the test...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Oh no! You're not saying we'll be riding around at 26kmph are you?
Trains were twice as fast as that in 1830. I'm starting a new campaign now.
Save The Pacers, anyone can join.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst all and sundry are fantasising to their heart's delights on this thread as to possible uses of these "Second-hand Rose items" on the British rail network, have any further intimations been forthcoming from Vivarail as to their current thoughts on this particular matter?

On wnxx there's a lengthy thread on D-Trains and it seems industry insiders can come up with hundreds of reasons why the D-Train idea won't work, while the people at Vivarail are avoiding questions from rail journalists beyond the ones they can give stock answers to. There's even claims they've done the wrong crash test for D-Trains if they are proposing their use on the mainline.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm starting a new campaign now.
Save The Pacers, anyone can join.

The Northern ITT specifies Pacer replacement and that bidders may only propose using the following stock on non-electrified routes post-Dec 2019:
1. Diesel stock Northern currently used excluding Pacers.
2. Class 15xs and/or 17xs which are off-lease.
3. New build.*

* A minimum of 120 new carriages are required which cannot be rebuilt from old trains.

The only way you can propose using D-Trains is by claiming they are new build and still delivering 120 new carriages which aren't D-Trains, even then it's debateable whether that'd be allowed.

I think we'll be worst off if Pacers are allowed to remain post-December 2019

 

[edwin_m]

The Northern ITT specifies Pacer replacement and that bidders may only propose using the following stock on non-electrified routes post-Dec 2019:
1. Diesel stock Northern currently used excluding Pacers.
2. Class 15xs and/or 17xs which are off-lease.
3. New build.*

* A minimum of 120 new carriages are required which cannot be rebuilt from old trains.

The only way you can propose using D-Trains is by claiming they are new build and still delivering 120 new carriages which aren't D-Trains, even then it's debateable whether that'd be allowed.

I think we'll be worst off if Pacers are allowed to remain post-December 2019

I can't face going through the ITT yet again, but there is a wriggle clause somewhere below those requirements which would allow them to offer D-trains as long as they are additional to the 120 new builds.

 

[mbonwick]

There's even claims they've done the wrong crash test for D-Trains if they are proposing their use on the mainline.

It's more than that - the test they have done is completely meaningless in terms of British Standards as it's a complete pick and choose of test elements!

As I posted on WNXX...
"From my interpretation (quite possibly wrong!) the 36km/h as carried out isn't actually a compliant test, but rather a 'pick and choose' of various categories. It's definitely lower than what I reckon it should be

Category C-I should be carried out at 36km/h - but into a unit of the same class or an 80t freight wagon. For the level crossing test, it's into 15t deformable (water tank) at (unit top speed - 50km/h) up to 110km/h.
Category C-III is carried out at 25km/h, but into a 15t flexible object (water tank)
Category C-IV is carried out at 25 km/h into a 3t solid object (appendix notes at 45 degrees)

And those categories?
C-I: Vehicles designed to operate on TEN routes, international, national and regional networks (which have level crossings). Examples: Locomotives, coaches, fixed train units
C-III: Light rail vehicles designed to operate on urban and/or regional networks, in tracksharing operation, and interfacing with road traffic. Examples: Tram-trains, peri-urban trams
C-IV: Light rail vehicles designed to operate on dedicated urban networks interfacing with road traffic. Examples: Tramway vehicles

So by my reckoning, this should have been carried out at ~30mph into 15t of water.
I make 60mph to be 96khm/h, subtract 50 from that and you get 46km/h which is 28.5mph."

Nowhere in BS15227 is there mention of a deformable 3t object (tank of water)

 

[route:oxford]

Nowhere in BS15227 is there mention of a deformable 3t object (tank of water)

Does it mention vehicles that are already mainline certified being recertified with a prettier front?

 

[mbonwick]

To be fair, BS 15227 only covers new designs of vehicle. However, Vivarail are intimating that they carried out some sort of "standard test" - which they have not.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't face going through the ITT yet again, but there is a wriggle clause somewhere below those requirements which would allow them to offer D-trains as long as they are additional to the 120 new builds.

To be fair, BS 15227 only covers new designs of vehicle.

There's the issue I think.

The 'wriggle clause' is that the D-Trains would have to be classed as new build trains to be used by Northern, yet the D-Trains aren't going to meet the safety requirements for new build.

 

[Clip]

Perhaps Vivarail are keeping their options open on a 60mph top speed and are looking at something in the region of running their "incubus" at a more realistic speed, hence the speed of the test...

To be fair though this post #1493 is a rather logical explanation as to why you don't want to crash your new train and write it off first time around.

 

[FordFocus]

Or as I said pages and pages ago, used as bubble car replacements on the AYS-PRR branch (assuming there is still a requirement for shuttle services, post E-W Rail. Absolutely no chance of them appearing on the Chiltern Main Line for pathing reasons. Very unlikely to appear on the Met either. The last thing that line needs is extended journey times. Currently there is 75mph running between WND-GMN, GMN-AMR and HOH-Neasden on the up and between Neasden-HOH, AMR-GMN, GMN-WND and WND-SKM on the down. A 60mph restriction would add 5 to 10 minutes to a journey time which already compares unfavourably to equivalent London Midland WCML journeys.

By the time it reaches the bubble car replacement stage there will be at least one DMU available from FGW or LOROL to replace it.

So Chiltern have nothing to fear with these D Trains. Pointless introducing another stock type for a short shuttle service.

 

[northwichcat]

By the time it reaches the bubble car replacement stage there will be at least one DMU available from FGW or LOROL to replace it.

Northern bidders are allowed to propose taking on any 15xs or 17xs which will become off-lease, so in theory they could snap up all the DMUs which FGW, Scotrail and LO will release.

Chiltern can have the prototype ePacer if a mass conversion of 143/4s doesn't go ahead.

 

[Clip]

So Chiltern have nothing to fear with these D Trains. Pointless introducing another stock type for a short shuttle service.

But you're forgetting the rather close relationship between the big cheese at Vivarail and Chiltern. Im pretty sure that if they can get the demonstrator for free they would be more than happy to use it to show off its functionality to the world.



*Cue it breaking down on the first day and the following outrage that will follow on here :-

See we told you they were rubbish , they don't even work properly and other such stuff that gets posted on other threads

 

[t_star2001uk]

But you're forgetting the rather close relationship between the big cheese at Vivarail and Chiltern. Im pretty sure that if they can get the demonstrator for free they would be more than happy to use it to show off its functionality to the world.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

And what close relationship is that?????

 

[Clip]

And what close relationship is that?????

Well Shooter being the Chairman for god knows how long and still keeping in touch with them would form a very close relationship.

Don't just dismiss things out of hand is all I am saying and ANY TOC would love the use of a free train.