Why do people chance it on long distance services?

[GodAtum]

It seems really stupid. People sitting in 1st class without a valid ticket and/or refusing to pay for an upgrade on long-distance services! I mean they might get away with it from Clapham Junction - Victoria, but not from Paddington - Plymouth or Euston - Manchester!

I was on the 0909 Paddington - Plymouth and somone got on without any ticket hoping to go all the way to Plymouth (a 3 hour journey). I didnt hear all the conversation with the guard (who got round to our carriage after Reading) but it seemed he did not have any money so got kicked out at Exeter.

 

[najaB]

It seems really stupid. People sitting in 1st class without a valid ticket and/or refusing to pay for an upgrade on long-distance services!

Yesterday my ticket wasn't checked between Crewe and Edinburgh.

 

[Merseysider]

Because quite often guards will just go "tickets from ... please" after each call which isn't really going to elicit a response from somebody hoping to travel free.

 

[Flying Snail]

I was on the 0909 Paddington - Plymouth and somone got on without any ticket hoping to go all the way to Plymouth (a 3 hour journey). I didnt hear all the conversation with the guard (who got round to our carriage after Reading) but it seemed he did not have any money so got kicked out at Exeter.

Well he got 2/3 the way without paying, what are the odds he found his way to Plymouth later on without paying as well.

There are different types of fare evader from the casual to the determined, at the bottom of the pile are the types that will do anything rather than pay. From scaling walls to evade barriers to telling lie after lie to guards/RPIs. Of course these people never have any ID on them and will never willingly give their correct details to anyone, even police. Mostly they are the type that live their entire lives like this, scamming, thieving, leeching off the state and anyone else silly enough to give them the time of day.

There are also a minority who selectively have that attitude on railways and transport, outwardly normal sorts who somehow think they are justified in not paying for public transport through whatever means, the infamous city type who was caught last year being an example.

 

[najaB]

There are also a minority who selectively have that attitude on railways and transport, outwardly normal sorts who somehow think they are justified in not paying for public transport through whatever means, the infamous city type who was caught last year being an example.

Do you mean like this guy?

 

[Flying Snail]

Do you mean like this guy?

Well, he is standing for election so I'd say he would fail the definition of "outwardly normal" but apart from that yeah, amazing how some tossers can proudly state they are dodging fares on principal.

 

[Flamingo]

On long-distance services, you can get a long way before being kicked off, and the chances of BTP getting involved are minimal. However, the chances of being caught are much greater in First Class, so that is stupid. Not all of them are very bright, though.

 

[vicbury]

Because quite often guards will just go "tickets from ... please" after each call which isn't really going to elicit a response from somebody hoping to travel free.

Exactly, or as on a journey I made the other day from Southampton Central to Bath Spa, only after every other station and only asking for tickets from the most recent station rather than the most recent two stations.

So technically I was never asked to present my ticket on a journey which takes an hour and a half although the ticket barriers at Bath Spa and Southampton Central would have prevented the majority of those hoping to evade on such a journey.

Travelling between Bath and Swindon on HSTs daily my ticket gets checked on the outbound journey less than 20% of the time and on the inbound journey less than 5% of the time.

 

[Flamingo]

Travelling between Bath and Swindon on HSTs daily my ticket gets checked on the outbound journey less than 20% of the time and on the inbound journey less than 5% of the time.

Between Bath and Swindon (both barriered, by the way, and the occasional presence of RPI's dishing out Penalty Fares) is about 30 minutes. Chippenham is about half-way and the Guard has to be at the rear for both Chippenham and (on the down) Bath, which is supposed to be opened from the rearmost coach at Bath. In 10-15 minutes I would expect to get two carriages done.

Best I would expect to get done (on the up) would be A&B between Bath & Chippenham, and either C&D or First Class and maybe F between Chippenham and Swindon. And that would not be on a busy train.

On the down I would not expect to get into A, B, C or D to do tickets after Swindon, as I would be too far forward to be in position to open the doors (my primary role) at either Chippenham or Bath.

After Chippenham on the down I will often announce I am at the buffet if anybody wishes to purchase a ticket. A surprising number do come and find me, probably because they know they can't exit at Bath or Bristol without a ticket, and run the risk of being PF'd.

 

[vicbury]

Between Bath and Swindon (both barriered, by the way, and the occasional presence of RPI's dishing out Penalty Fares) is about 30 minutes. Chippenham is about half-way and the Guard has to be at the rear for both Chippenham and (on the down) Bath, which is supposed to be opened from the rearmost coach at Bath. In 10-15 minutes I would expect to get two carriages done.

Best I would expect to get done (on the up) would be A&B between Bath & Chippenham, and either C&D or First Class and maybe F between Chippenham and Swindon. And that would not be on a busy train.

On the down I would not expect to get into A, B, C or D to do tickets after Swindon, as I would be too far forward to be in position to open the doors (my primary role) at either Chippenham or Bath.

After Chippenham on the down I will often announce I am at the buffet if anybody wishes to purchase a ticket. A surprising number do come down, probably because they know they can't exit at Bath or Bristol without a ticket, and run the risk of being PF'd.

Thanks for the info... That ties in with my experience as I usually sit in Coach F towards Swindon and Coach A towards Bath as F seems to be quietest in the mornings and I prefer to travel in the quiet carriage after work.

As for exiting at Bath, the gate on platform 1 to the car park often seems to be unattended and open in the evenings even though the barriers at the main exits are operational. I wonder if it could be remotely monitored like the gate to the bridge at Swindon and therefore kept closed?

 

[Jonny]

Do you mean like this guy?

Well, strictly speaking he was trying to dump the fares onto the banking system. Typical Labour mindset, he probably thought he was just levying a tax on the banks.
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Back on the original question, the simple answer is because they think they can get away with it. Or, failing that, that the perceived benefits outweigh the risks.

 

[lemonic]

Between Bath and Swindon (both barriered, by the way, and the occasional presence of RPI's dishing out Penalty Fares) is about 30 minutes. Chippenham is about half-way and the Guard has to be at the rear for both Chippenham and (on the down) Bath, which is supposed to be opened from the rearmost coach at Bath. In 10-15 minutes I would expect to get two carriages done.

Best I would expect to get done (on the up) would be A&B between Bath & Chippenham, and either C&D or First Class and maybe F between Chippenham and Swindon. And that would not be on a busy train.

On the down I would not expect to get into A, B, C or D to do tickets after Swindon, as I would be too far forward to be in position to open the doors (my primary role) at either Chippenham or Bath.

After Chippenham on the down I will often announce I am at the buffet if anybody wishes to purchase a ticket. A surprising number do come and find me, probably because they know they can't exit at Bath or Bristol without a ticket, and run the risk of being PF'd.

This post explains exactly why FGW would like the driver to control the doors on the new Super Express trains. This is not a criticism of the guard, but it does show how it can be impractical to have effective revenue protection on such journeys with the guard controlling the doors.

 

[Flamingo]

This post explains exactly why FGW would like the driver to control the doors on the new Super Express trains. This is not a criticism of the guard, but it does show how it can be impractical to have effective revenue protection on such journeys with the guard controlling the doors.

When the new trains come in, the requirement to unlock the doors from the rear at Bath will no longer be in place, as the reason for it (tourists at the rear doors not knowing how to open them) will not happen any more.

However, on a platform at Bath with the curve profile and platform entrance at the rear, there will be a high risk of people running from the rear entrance and trying to access the doors out of sight of the driver at the front, who will not see them until they appear, unlike a guard dispatching who will have better sight of the car-park.

And again, just to re-iterate for the hard of thinking THE GUARDS JOB IS THE SAFE RUNNING OF THE TRAIN, NOT CHECKING TICKETS.

If you feel that there should be more ATE's or RPI's on the train, that is a different issue. They are responsible for revenue protection. They won't get the blame when something happens to a passenger.

 

[TheEdge]

And again, just to re-iterate for the hard of thinking THE GUARDS JOB IS THE SAFE RUNNING OF THE TRAIN, NOT CHECKING TICKETS.

Which is why when someone calls me the ticket man I have a sudden urge to attack!

 

[yorkie]

Let's not go off-topic, lemonic and the rest of us know all that, and I don't think there is any disageeement that the current arrangements make it "impractical to have effective revenue protection".

Yes there are multiple potential solutions, some of which will be agreeable to some people but not others, which there is no need to go into in this thread because they've been discussed to death in other threads

 

[DelayRepay]

There does seem to be a perception amongst some that if they get caught, the worse that might happen is a £25 penalty fare. And if they make the journey regularly, they can learn that in certain carriages you don't get checked (for the reasons pointed out above) and certain exits at stations are unattended at certain times.

Unfortunately for them, they tend to get a nasty shock when they do get caught and find themselves being put in front of the judge. Then they normally come here and post the story about someone being ill / being tired and stressed / the nasty man / being poor (delete as applicable).

 

[trentside]

There does seem to be a perception amongst some that if they get caught, the worse that might happen is a £25 penalty fare. And if they make the journey regularly, they can learn that in certain carriages you don't get checked (for the reasons pointed out above) and certain exits at stations are unattended at certain times.

With regards to certain carriages not getting checked, this is why some of us try to mix up our ticket checks when possible. For example, starting from the back one day, the front another etc. It's not always possible as sometimes you need to be in a specific position on the train for dispatch at the next station, or you've not had sufficient time to walk down the platform, but if you can manage it, then you can get positive results.

 

[DownSouth]

There does seem to be a perception amongst some that if they get caught, the worse that might happen is a £25 penalty fare. And if they make the journey regularly, they can learn that in certain carriages you don't get checked (for the reasons pointed out above) and certain exits at stations are unattended at certain times.

Unfortunately for them, they tend to get a nasty shock when they do get caught and find themselves being put in front of the judge. Then they normally come here and post the story about someone being ill / being tired and stressed / the nasty man / being poor (delete as applicable).

You forgot to mention being a law student.

 

[Starmill]

It seems really stupid. People sitting in 1st class without a valid ticket and/or refusing to pay for an upgrade on long-distance services! I mean they might get away with it from Clapham Junction - Victoria, but not from Paddington - Plymouth or Euston - Manchester!

I have not had my ticket checked for Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston quite a few times. And there are no gates at either entrance...

I have done London Euston to Coventry in First Class with no check before boarding and no check onboard. Of course again, no gates!

 

[Antman]

There does seem to be a perception amongst some that if they get caught, the worse that might happen is a £25 penalty fare. And if they make the journey regularly, they can learn that in certain carriages you don't get checked (for the reasons pointed out above) and certain exits at stations are unattended at certain times.

Unfortunately for them, they tend to get a nasty shock when they do get caught and find themselves being put in front of the judge. Then they normally come here and post the story about someone being ill / being tired and stressed / the nasty man / being poor (delete as applicable).

I would imagine fare evasion cases are normally held in a magistrate court if indeed they get that far?

People do it because they know that they can get away with it and the risk is minimal. Some try to justify their actions by claiming that train fares in this country are a rip off but obviously two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Fare dodgers come in all shapes and sizes and creeds and breeds just like the general populace. Some have a need to be somewhere without the funds to do so, others look on it as some kind of given right to avoid paying. Not all fare dodgers are the same and am sure most staff examining tickets have let people off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1vs_cMZWo8

I never held a ticket examining role but would have probably thrown the wee scrote off at the next stop.

 

[DownSouth]

Some try to justify their actions by claiming that train fares in this country are a rip off but obviously two wrongs don't make a right.

Civil disobedience is a legitimate strategy for getting bad policies overturned. However, there are two thing needed for it to work:

1. Every protester must insist on being arrested by a real police officer and having their day in court, where they would use the time given to provide a defence on speaking against the policy instead. The aim is such that the workload for the police and courts becomes so unsustainably heavy that the policy becomes unenforceable/uneconomic and the powers that be are forced to the negotiation table.
2. There needs to be a critical mass doing so, otherwise the workload cannot become unsustainable heavy.

Neither of these are happening when some random person tries to weasel out of a fare.

 

[CC 72100]

Some try to justify their actions by claiming that train fares in this country are a rip off but obviously two wrongs don't make a right.

Ah, the good old 'fighting back against the system innit' argument.

The fact that fraudulent rail travel is a victimless crime could also serve as a justification, and even then, the 'victim' is a nasty rich rip-off company anyway.
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I have not had my ticket checked for Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston quite a few times. And there are no gates at either entrance...

I have done London Euston to Coventry in First Class with no check before boarding and no check onboard. Of course again, no gates!

I don't think you're the first to have experiences which suggest that Virgin WC have a rather lax approach to revenue protection...

 

[Fare-Cop]

I don't think you're the first to have experiences which suggest that Virgin WC have a rather lax approach to revenue protection...

I think that recent Magistrates Court results at various locations along that route will change quite a few opinions.

 

[CC 72100]

I think that recent Magistrates Court results at various locations along that route will change quite a few opinions.

Well that and the installation of barriers in the West Midlands could see the tide changing, but I've seen several posts on here where Virgin have took a rather laid-back approach to revenue on their services, the barriers at Euston excepted.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well that and the installation of barriers in the West Midlands could see the tide changing, but I've seen several posts on here where Virgin have took a rather laid-back approach to revenue on their services, the barriers at Euston excepted.

Virgin have been doing pre-boarding ticket inspections for their services at Manchester Piccadilly all day every day for around a week now. A small army of revenue staff are there checking everyone on and off Virgin services.

 

[Greenback]

Most people who chance it will see the risk of getting caught as quite low, the consequences of getting caught as minor, and the rewards as high!

 

[Flamingo]

Most people who chance it will see the risk of getting caught as quite low, the consequences of getting caught as minor, and the rewards as high!

Unfortunately, that's a pretty accurate risk evaluation...

 

[6Gman]

Virgin have been doing pre-boarding ticket inspections for their services at Manchester Piccadilly all day every day for around a week now. A small army of revenue staff are there checking everyone on and off Virgin services.

Well, everyone except those who are familiar with the layout of Piccadilly station ...

I alighted from a VT service last week without having my ticket (I had one) checked despite the presence of numerous staff.

 

[Starmill]

Virgin have been doing pre-boarding ticket inspections for their services at Manchester Piccadilly all day every day for around a week now. A small army of revenue staff are there checking everyone on and off Virgin services.

Yes, I noticed the 'awesome' queues people were waiting in to leave the platform upon arrival.