Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[edwin_m]

Aerodynamics aren't really an issue at the sort of speeds the D78 will run at.

 

[martynbristow]

Aerodynamics aren't really an issue at the sort of speeds the D78 will run at.

Aerodynamics will affect the front and rear of the train primarily but it will have a huge effect if the trains push above 50. The turbulence around the doors will cause damage potentially when 2 trains pass.
With side plates over door controls it'll be aesthetics and protection of the body work

 

[najaB]

The turbulence around the doors will cause damage potentially when 2 trains pass.

Not likely. Compared to the amount of disturbance caused by the front and the inter-carriage gaps, the turbulence caused by a the door panels would be almost impossible to measure.

 

[jopsuk]

all the 100mph mark 3 EMUs have recessed doors, as do the 140mph Class 395s and so will the Class 800/801. Less doors admittedly, but aerodynamically, what's the difference between a door and a blank panel?

 

[WillPS]

all the 100mph mark 3 EMUs have recessed doors, as do the 140mph Class 395s and so will the Class 800/801. Less doors admittedly, but aerodynamically, what's the difference between a door and a blank panel?

Presumably a very slight advantage in that a blank panel would be fully sealed in to place?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Aerodynamics aren't really an issue at the sort of speeds the D78 will run at.

Will the alternative issue of being more aesthetically visually pleasing be acceptable in the side bodyshell to which I so alluded.

 

[route:oxford]

Will the alternative issue of being more aesthetically visually pleasing be acceptable in the side bodyshell to which I so alluded.

No

The portals, although sealed, have industrial character and symmetry . You wouldn't render a historic home to hide the stone windows, so why try and hide a feature from the past on a train?

 

[Haydn1971]

...plus a permanent sealing up would limit further changes to suit new services - i.e. Going back from four doors per carriage to eight.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No

The portals, although sealed, have industrial character and symmetry . You wouldn't render a historic home to hide the stone windows, so why try and hide a feature from the past on a train?

I am glad that someone had said this in a posting. Perhaps Vivarail's insistence that "new build" is the correct terminology now needs showing up for the fallacy that it actually is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am glad that someone had said this in a posting. Perhaps Vivarail's insistence that "new build" is the correct terminology now needs showing up for the fallacy that it actually is.

It would be rather stupid to seal up the unused doorways *IF* that meant the windows in the doors were effectively lost. In the interests of saving money I see no point worrying about the aesthetics of two out of use doorways which arguably look better left in situ rather than hidden. It is not even worth the wear and tear on my keyboard as the affect on performance will be negligible. Especially if one day an operator decides they wish to use those doors for a more metro type of working.

It is good to see there is nothing more significant to worry about regarding this project .

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be rather stupid to seal up the unused doorways *IF* that meant the windows in the doors were effectively lost. In the interests of saving money I see no point worrying about the aesthetics of two out of use doorways which arguably look better left in situ rather than hidden. It is not even worth the wear and tear on my keyboard as the affect on performance will be negligible. Especially if one day an operator decides they wish to use those doors for a more metro type of working.

Given that there are barely two windows of the same size on a purpose built Class 185, I don't think this even enters the radar of actually being a problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There must therefore be other similarly aged DMU stock that can also be converted in the same way?

There are no spare DMUs of any kind. If there were, this project wouldn't even be under consideration.

 

[Wolfie]

Apparently Bombardier have offered a DEMU version of the Electrostar to bidders. Possibly that's the most cost effective option considering the order might only be for 120 carriages, while the 172 doesn't comply, Aventra only exists on paper and Movia hasn't been designed for National Rail.

If Aventra (spelling doesn't look right!) really exists only on paper then the Thameslink project is well and truly screwed... of course your statement may just be wrong particularly given that Bombardier have stated that no more Electrostars will be built....

 

[northwichcat]

If Aventra (spelling doesn't look right!)

Tell Bombardier they've got it wrong then: http://uk.bombardier.com/en/transportation/presence-in-country/future-concepts-projects.html

really exists only on paper then the Thameslink project is well and truly screwed...

As Thameslink is getting Desiros I think it's Crossrail that'll be affected

of course your statement may just be wrong particularly given that Bombardier have stated that no more Electrostars will be built....

Given a 172 is a Turbostar and a 379 is an Electrostar, maybe a DEMU would have a different name again even if it's based on an older design?

 

[SprinterMan]

supercilious puerile willy-waving

This should have been a suggestion in the "Find a nickname for IEP" thread :P

 

[route:oxford]

Given a 172 is a Turbostar and a 379 is an Electrostar, maybe a DEMU would have a different name again even if it's based on an older design?

Make them feel special.

Call it a NorthernStar

 

[Wolfie]

Tell Bombardier they've got it wrong then: http://uk.bombardier.com/en/transportation/presence-in-country/future-concepts-projects.html



As Thameslink is getting Desiros I think it's Crossrail that'll be affected



Given a 172 is a Turbostar and a 379 is an Electrostar, maybe a DEMU would have a different name again even if it's based on an older design?

Oops... that's what l get for rushing a message using very unstable wifi at Birmingham New Street...

 

[LateThanNever]

Make them feel special.

Call it a NorthernStar

Go to the head of the marketing department! - Lovely

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The portals, although sealed, have industrial character and symmetry . You wouldn't render a historic home to hide the stone windows, so why try and hide a feature from the past on a train?

So your contention is that these so-called "new build" units that Vivarail seem to feel fit for the 21st century should have arcane railway carriage features incorporated into their design.

Name me any other "new build" manufacturer whose design department will see the advantage of bringing a new design to the railway market that incorporates features from the previous century that is a legacy of these NOT being new-build units

 

[Bletchleyite]

Name me any other "new build" manufacturer whose design department will see the advantage of bringing a new design to the railway market that incorporates features from the previous century.

Fake wood on tables? But seriously, it's more the case that there is no disadvantage to leaving them there (provided they are sealed against draughts) than there being an advantage to having them in and of itself.

 

[route:oxford]

So your contention is that these so-called "new build" units that Vivarail seem to feel fit for the 21st century should have arcane railway carriage features incorporated into their design.

Name me any other "new build" manufacturer whose design department will see the advantage of bringing a new design to the railway market that incorporates features from the previous century.

Bombardier and Alstom install windows on their units.

There isn't any need really. If you look at the "Harry Potter" train at the theme park, you'll find it has no windows but a display screen installed inside where windows would be to give the illusion of travelling through the Highlands.

Just think how much better the lives enthusiasts would be if the Pendolino had been designed without any windows but with seats perfectly aligned with display screens instead?

Even for ordinary commuters, on winters nights the screens could display a balmy summer evening helping to mitigate against SAD.

 

[Peter Sarf]

To avoid the risks associated with SAD there must be such a season proof window for the driver as well .

 

[danielnez1]

To avoid the risks associated with SAD there must be such a season proof window for the driver as well .

Nah, just dish out the SSRI/SNRI/TCA of choice.

 

[WatcherZero]

Bombardier and Alstom install windows on their units.

There isn't any need really. If you look at the "Harry Potter" train at the theme park, you'll find it has no windows but a display screen installed inside where windows would be to give the illusion of travelling through the Highlands.

Just think how much better the lives enthusiasts would be if the Pendolino had been designed without any windows but with seats perfectly aligned with display screens instead?

Even for ordinary commuters, on winters nights the screens could display a balmy summer evening helping to mitigate against SAD.

Don't knock it, probably way it will be on planes eventually. Replacing windows with screens and external cameras saves a lot of weight.

 

[edwin_m]

Don't knock it, probably way it will be on planes eventually. Replacing windows with screens and external cameras saves a lot of weight.

Also means everyone gets a "window", even if it is on the seatback in front.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Certain types of aircraft have had "out the front" views available on seat-back TVs for years.......

 

[northwichcat]

Don't knock it, probably way it will be on planes eventually. Replacing windows with screens and external cameras saves a lot of weight.

"This is your captain speaking. The route we'll be taking goes across an Ocean for hundreds of miles, which gets boring after a while so we'll be projecting some more interesting views on to the windows at regular intervals."

 

[The Ham]

Go to the head of the marketing department! - Lovely

Maybe Mel C could be involved in the advertising.

 

[Clip]

"This is your captain speaking. The route we'll be taking goes across an Ocean for hundreds of miles, which gets boring after a while so we'll be projecting some more interesting views on to the windows at regular intervals."

You mean like this?

I don't understand Pauls objection to them just sealing up the unused doors and keeping the windows in. That's if I understood that correctly

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah glory be. From the above I can see a big step forward. Its quite possible that a seat back projection could include a fake interior of the train giving an illusion of space and/or nicer looking passengers and clean shag pile carpets. Plus, for the D-78s, this could include scenes of rolling Berkshire/Hampshire countryside instead of grim satanic mills. And with screens this big it would be feasible to clearly indicate every station name bracketed with "Welcome To XXXXX home of the blah blah blah". Struggling towns could pay to advertise their attractions up to 100 miles (1000 miles in the case of services up North) before the actual station.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah glory be. From the above I can see a big step forward. Its quite possible that a seat back projection could include a fake interior of the train giving an illusion of space and/or nicer looking passengers and clean shag pile carpets. Plus, for the D-78s, this could include scenes of rolling Berkshire/Hampshire countryside instead of grim satanic mills. And with screens this big it would be feasible to clearly indicate every station name bracketed with "Welcome To XXXXX home of the blah blah blah". Struggling towns could pay to advertise their attractions up to 100 miles (1000 miles in the case of services up North) before the actual station.

They might finish up being used in the South.