Summons for failing to submit a rail ticket??

[Clip]

I did just do the same on tfl journey planner and you do have to click a link on the journey you select and this is the result.

However after seeing an analogy with a step I am going to bow out laughing.

 

[Flamingo]

What I think also seems to annoy people here is the OP coming across as if they're new to London and not knowing a lot about the fares, while their username makes it seem like they've lived here a reasonable time to be aware of these things, and know to check beforehand.

I can't help thinking of a line from an American comic on Radio 4 a few weeks ago. As far as I can remember it went:
"You know when you cross the line, and stop being a victim and start being a Dick?"

 

[KeithP]

The obvious solution is for the card readers at Gatwick to accept the contactless payment cards from passengers arriving by train from London, open the gate and deduct a £20.00 Penalty Fare automatically.

I am sure the OP would find that OK.... better than over sixty pounds anyway.

 

[archwaykid]

What proportion of people using these services are getting caught out? Unless we know that we can't know if it's a significant problem, all we have at the moment is hearsay and anecdote.

As for the "Go Anywhere" bit, if anyone takes that literally then they need help.

But this was my point mate. When I was caught out by the inspectors, there were 4 others Who got penalised with me as well. Same offence. All, in a span of 10 minutes. So that's 4 penalties of 20 each. Ridiculous.
Which is why I know something isn't right. And why obviously I conservatively calculated how much the GTR make in an hour.
Also, enquired at my office. 2 of my work mates got penalised for the same. Did a random post about this on Facebook, and a good friend got penalised for the same.
As I said, this is a cash cow for the GTR. Just not fair on customers.

 

[DeeGee]

I did just do the same on tfl journey planner and you do have to click a link on the journey you select and this is the result.

It says "Oyster Cards" aren't valid to Gatwick.

The OP didn't use an Oyster Card.

I'm starting to think that, particularly in the case of the airports, there are too many opportunities for the unwary to make "honest mistakes", and the fact that GTR put RPIs there pretty much constantly implies that they know this and there's no wriggle room.

If someone presents an Oyster Card or a Contactless, make them buy the appropriate ticket, or if possible to check what they've already paid, make them pay the difference between what they've already paid for and what they've used. Same with a Travelcard - make them pay from the boundary of the appropriate zone.

We have to work with the fact that London is one of the most-visited cities in the world and at any time there will be many thousands of people using our public transport systems to get to and from the airports. Many of whom have never travelled in the UK before, and many of whom have only a passing acquaintance with both our language and our geography.

More opportunities for discretion and less "Straight to" Penalty Fare would be appropriate. But that would mean that the relevant TOCs have to stop milking a very lucrative cash cow.

 

[Via Bank]

It says "Oyster Cards" aren't valid to Gatwick.

The OP didn't use an Oyster Card.

I'm starting to think that, particularly in the case of the airports, there are too many opportunities for the unwary to make "honest mistakes", and the fact that GTR put RPIs there pretty much constantly implies that they know this and there's no wriggle room.

If someone presents an Oyster Card or a Contactless, make them buy the appropriate ticket, or if possible to check what they've already paid, make them pay the difference between what they've already paid for and what they've used. Same with a Travelcard - make them pay from the boundary of the appropriate zone.

We have to work with the fact that London is one of the most-visited cities in the world and at any time there will be many thousands of people using our public transport systems to get to and from the airports. Many of whom have never travelled in the UK before, and many of whom have only a passing acquaintance with both our language and our geography.

More opportunities for discretion and less "Straight to" Penalty Fare would be appropriate. But that would mean that the relevant TOCs have to stop milking a very lucrative cash cow.

I know for a fact that there is a poster on an A-board at Victoria, on the side of the BML platforms, that advertises that Contactless fares are cheaper than cash fares, and provides a list of example fares and the savings with each.

At no point on this poster is the important qualification made that Contactless cannot be used beyond the Oyster zones.

I'm sorry, but that is a bloody joke! How on earth is anyone supposed to avoid coming to the assumption that they can use Contactless for any journey when it has been advertised, by Southern, as cheaper than the cash fare, adjacent the platforms for trains to Gatwick/Brighton?

 

[EM2]

Did a random post about this on Facebook, and a good friend got penalised for the same.

I also did a post on Facebook and no one thought that London Gatwick airport is in London, including Scots, Yorkshiremen and Americans.

 

[DeeGee]

I also did a post on Facebook and no one thought that London Gatwick airport is in London, including Scots, Yorkshiremen and Americans.

So where are, for instance, Chesham, Watford, Amersham, Brentwood, Grays, Broxbourne and Caterham?

Being "in London" is not the only criterion. It's more complicated than that. And it needs simplifying.

 

[Greenback]

I don't doubt that more could be done to make it clearer on TfL's adverts that contactless is only valid within a certain area. unfortunately, the nature of advertising these days is that it has to grab people's attention to be anywhere near effective, and that tends to mean little or no actual information, as such things don't catch the eye and in fact, turn people away.

Another problem is the lack of a proper definition of London. As far as TfL are concerned London is the zones, but not everyone will be aware of that. For many, London is defined by the London Boroughs, for others it's defined by whatever they think it is, as in the examples of Reigate and Windsor residents.

But to me, all of these factors mean that it's even more necessary to check things out first, rather than relying on subliminal message sin adverts. As I mentioned previously, I'd have a lot more sympathy for someone who made an effort to find out whether contactless was valid for their trip, and if they had done this and found something ambiguous that they could point to in their defence, I'm pretty confident that they'd have better grounds for an appeal as well.

With the internet, smartphones etc providing the means to access more information than ever before, often in only a few seconds, I'm a bit perplexed as to why so many people apparently don't check facts and just assume things instead. Maybe it's information overload? After all, look how many people seem to believe that the Trainline offers the cheapest fares.

 

[EM2]

So where are, for instance, Chesham, Watford, Amersham, Brentwood, Grays, Broxbourne and Caterham?

Being "in London" is not the only criterion. It's more complicated than that. And it needs simplifying.

It is one of the major tenets of the OP's argument, that the airport styles itself as London Gatwick (the station does not), and therefore people think it is in London.

 

[Llanigraham]

So where are, for instance, Chesham, Watford, Amersham, Brentwood, Grays, Broxbourne and Caterham?

Being "in London" is not the only criterion. It's more complicated than that. And it needs simplifying.

None of those places are in London!
And my wife has family in Caterham and none of them consider they live in London.

 

[Greenback]

I have relatives in the Croydon area. We've always referred top them as the London branch, whereas they would say they live in Mitcham, Wallington, Croydon etc.

 

[snail]

How on earth is anyone supposed to avoid coming to the assumption that they can use Contactless for any journey when it has been advertised, by Southern, as cheaper than the cash fare, adjacent the platforms for trains to Gatwick/Brighton?

So the absence of an example fare to Gatwick or Brighton wouldn't put you on alert that it may not extend that far? Or cause you to ask what the saving is? How many trains do you catch without checking the fare first?

 

[Via Bank]

So the absence of an example fare to Gatwick or Brighton wouldn't put you on alert that it may not extend that far? Or cause you to ask what the saving is? How many trains do you catch without checking the fare first?

That's not what the poster says. The poster says it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that there is a limit to how far it extends. Bearing in mind if someone travels beyond the zones without a ticket they are guilty of a criminal offence, this should be explicit and the passenger should not be left to guess.

 

[DaleCooper]

There is no indication, whatsoever, that there is a limit to how far it extends.

A single to Alpha Centauri please.

 

[snail]

That's not what the poster says. The poster says it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that there is a limit to how far it extends. Bearing in mind if someone travels beyond the zones without a ticket they are guilty of a criminal offence, this should be explicit and the passenger should not be left to guess.

Does it say that a paper ticket to Clapham Junction isn't valid to Gatwick? By your logic it should.

PS You haven't answered my question about whether you check the fare before you travel on a train.

 

[NSEFAN]

That's not what the poster says. The poster says it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that there is a limit to how far it extends. Bearing in mind if someone travels beyond the zones without a ticket they are guilty of a criminal offence, this should be explicit and the passenger should not be left to guess.

I see what you are saying, but to be honest I think it is reasonable for a transport operator to expect passengers to check the validity of their tickets. You can have a poster which says "Oyster is cheaper" but that doesn't absolve any responsibility on the part of the passenger. If they don't know if their ticket is correct then they should find out.

Perhaps wording to the effect of "Please check your tickets are valid before travel" could be added to promotions as a disclaimer, but this should be obvious to someone who is using a new type of ticket. When looking up tickets which I haven't used before, one of the first things I go and find is a map or description which explicitly says where and when it's valid. If I can't find this I ask a member of staff before purchasing it.

 

[Via Bank]

Does it say that a paper ticket to Clapham Junction isn't valid to Gatwick? By your logic it should.

PS You haven't answered my question about whether you check the fare before you travel on a train.

When travelling outside London of course I check the fare—since I need to buy a paper ticket I have no choice but to find out how much it costs! When travelling within the zones on PAYG, however, it is certainly wise to check, but by no means necessary. (In many cases it's immaterial since you've already hit the cap.)

But this is beside the point, and your interpretation that I'm implying false validity on paper tickets is, I have to say, absolute twaddle.

Paper tickets have start and end points printed on them. There is no such wording on Oysters and CPCs, so someone, somewhere, needs to clearly advertise the boundary of their validity!

The wording of the advert says nothing more than "it is cheaper to use Contactless than buy a paper ticket." This can then result in people assuming (wrongly) that Contactless is valid anywhere a paper ticket is valid (another logical but incorrect assumption, like "London" Gatwick being in the Oyster zones, etc.)

If you cannot see how this catches inexperienced members of the public out, then I don't know what else to say, but I will say one more thing: the current system by which the railway criminalises customers who have not gone on a mad treasure hunt to understand the fare systems' foibles is a bonfire for customer goodwill. Going back to the OP's case, what is the likelihood archwaykid will travel by train again out of choice?

 

[Clip]

When travelling outside London of course I check the fare

Good and with Gatwick airport not being in London then you would check.

phew we got there in the end - passengers should check before they travel. A novel idea but one we all agree on.


/thread

 

[MikeWh]

None of those places are in London!
And my wife has family in Caterham and none of them consider they live in London.

But when they travel from Caterham station they are in London zone 6. How does that work?

 

[Via Bank]

Good and with Gatwick airport not being in London then you would check.

phew we got there in the end - passengers should check before they travel. A novel idea but one we all agree on.


/thread

I don't appreciate this single clause of a sentence being stripped of all context and quoted as an end to the discussion, but for your benefit, let's qualify that a little bit further:

When travelling outside London I always check the fare, because I know I need to buy a paper ticket to get on the train, because I grew up a little bit outside London, have a good knowledge of the geography of the area, have been using public transport in the former Network SouthEast area for over two decades, and understand that Oyster and contactless are only valid in the (arbitrary) Oyster zones. I understand the system, as, I'm sure, do you.

OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT LIKE US. You CAN NOT ASSUME that other people will know this.

Imagine for a moment you know nothing about public transport, only that you need to buy a ticket and then get on a train. In the ticket queue, you see That Poster, stating "it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket." So, you stop queueing, and turn round, and merrily open the gates with your CPC to an inevitable Penalty Fare.

In the OP's case, they did not realise that their payment method was not valid to Gatwick because this fact was not made clear to them while they could still rectify it by getting off inside the boundary and buying a paper ticket. (When I say 'clear' I mean "made explicitly clear to customers intending to travel from London beyond the boundary that they needed a paper ticket," not "hidden on a merry treasure trail somewhere deep inside the TfL journey planner.")

The whole point of the Contactless system is that it is supposed to be convenient, meaning all you have to do is remember to touch in and out and it does the rest for you.

The Gatwick situation is a confluence of shoddily ambiguous information: information that leads one to believe Gatwick Airport station is in London, hence in the London zones, even when it isn't; information that leads one to believe Contactless can be used across the Southern network from Victoria, even when it is only valid as far as the arbitrary Oyster boundary.

The truth is very counterintuitive and there is no excuse for the advertising and publicity not having clear qualifiers about the Contactless system's limits.

----

Regarding NSEFAN's suggestion that one should always be wary about new ticket types, I would like to remind everyone of this post by afriedl further up the thread:

If you'd like the American POV on potential UK/London travel difficulties...

Probably the biggest difference from any North American service I've taken is the way London's payment card can be used on commuter and intercity services within a certain area. For instance, you can get from midtown Manhattan to Brooklyn on either the subway or the Long Island Railroad, a commuter service that (as its name suggests) covers much of Long Island. The MetroCard that you'd use on the subway isn't valid on the LIRR, even though both ends of an intracity LIRR journey are likely to be adjacent to subway stations where the MetroCard is valid.

The other side of that coin is that I've never been on any service outside of the London area where a method of payment is only valid for part of a route. I quite liked not only being able to use the train from Wembley Stadium to Marylebone for a normal Oyster fare but also having a free transfer when I arrived. I do think they did a good job of communicating that Oyster wasn't valid past Wembley Stadium in the prerecorded announcements on the outbound service, but I can't even begin to speak to all the other services running from London.

I would also remind you that, outside the UK, ticket gates are basically non-existent on mainline Inter-City services. Outside the UK, they are almost exclusively found on metros. These are closed systems. One cannot enter or leave the system without walking through a gateline or past a validator. So it is easy to assume, if you have no experience of our bizarre semi-gated system, that if you pass through a validator on one end, there will be another at the other end allowing you to pay as you go.

----

TL;DR: if people are repeatably and demonstrably making incorrect assumptions about the validity of Oyster/Contactless to various destinations beyond London, the information they are being given is defective and needs fixing.

In my industry (software) we used to call this kind of problem an ID10T error. Now we call it what it is: a bug. If the system allows people to keep making mistakes, and makes it difficult to recover from those mistakes, then the system needs fixing.

 

[EM2]

Imagine for a moment you know nothing about public transport, only that you need to buy a ticket and then get on a train. In the ticket queue, you see That Poster, stating "it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket." So, you stop queueing, and turn round, and merrily open the gates with your CPC to an inevitable Penalty Fare.

But I wouldn't. In any circumstance when I am not sure, I ask. I would rather waste a little time queueing up, asking the clerk 'Can I use my contactless card to 'example station in zone 6'/'example station outside zone 6' (delete as appropriate)?' and be told yes or no as appropriate, than take a risk.

Not long ago, I needed to attend a funeral at the Basingstoke Crematorium, which is pretty much equidistant from Basingstoke and Micheldever stations.
I bought a ticket to Micheldever, but before boarding got a call from my cousin asking if I needed a lift from Basingstoke.
I *could* have just said 'Yes, that'd be great', and assumed I could stop short. Instead, I checked with staff to make sure and as it happened, it was fine. But I didn't *know*, so I checked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

information that leads one to believe Contactless can be used across the Southern network from Victoria, even when it is only valid as far as the arbitrary Oyster boundary.

The OP travelled with Thameslink from London Bridge.

 

[archwaykid]

I don't appreciate this single clause of a sentence being stripped of all context and quoted as an end to the discussion, but for your benefit, let's qualify that a little bit further:

When travelling outside London I always check the fare, because I know I need to buy a paper ticket to get on the train, because I grew up a little bit outside London, have a good knowledge of the geography of the area, have been using public transport in the former Network SouthEast area for over two decades, and understand that Oyster and contactless are only valid in the (arbitrary) Oyster zones. I understand the system, as, I'm sure, do you.

OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT LIKE US. You CAN NOT ASSUME that other people will know this.

Imagine for a moment you know nothing about public transport, only that you need to buy a ticket and then get on a train. In the ticket queue, you see That Poster, stating "it's cheaper to travel with your contactless payment card than it is to buy a paper train ticket." So, you stop queueing, and turn round, and merrily open the gates with your CPC to an inevitable Penalty Fare.

In the OP's case, they did not realise that their payment method was not valid to Gatwick because this fact was not made clear to them while they could still rectify it by getting off inside the boundary and buying a paper ticket. (When I say 'clear' I mean "made explicitly clear to customers intending to travel from London beyond the boundary that they needed a paper ticket," not "hidden on a merry treasure trail somewhere deep inside the TfL journey planner.")

The whole point of the Contactless system is that it is supposed to be convenient, meaning all you have to do is remember to touch in and out and it does the rest for you.

The Gatwick situation is a confluence of shoddily ambiguous information: information that leads one to believe Gatwick Airport station is in London, hence in the London zones, even when it isn't; information that leads one to believe Contactless can be used across the Southern network from Victoria, even when it is only valid as far as the arbitrary Oyster boundary.

The truth is very counterintuitive and there is no excuse for the advertising and publicity not having clear qualifiers about the Contactless system's limits.

----

Regarding NSEFAN's suggestion that one should always be wary about new ticket types, I would like to remind everyone of this post by afriedl further up the thread:



I would also remind you that, outside the UK, ticket gates are basically non-existent on mainline Inter-City services. Outside the UK, they are almost exclusively found on metros. These are closed systems. One cannot enter or leave the system without walking through a gateline or past a validator. So it is easy to assume, if you have no experience of our bizarre semi-gated system, that if you pass through a validator on one end, there will be another at the other end allowing you to pay as you go.

----

TL;DR: if people are repeatably and demonstrably making incorrect assumptions about the validity of Oyster/Contactless to various destinations beyond London, the information they are being given is defective and needs fixing.

In my industry (software) we used to call this kind of problem an ID10T error. Now we call it what it is: a bug. If the system allows people to keep making mistakes, and makes it difficult to recover from those mistakes, then the system needs fixing.

Thank you for the response. I appreciate it and fully agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I wouldn't. In any circumstance when I am not sure, I ask. I would rather waste a little time queueing up, asking the clerk 'Can I use my contactless card to 'example station in zone 6'/'example station outside zone 6' (delete as appropriate)?' and be told yes or no as appropriate, than take a risk.

Not long ago, I needed to attend a funeral at the Basingstoke Crematorium, which is pretty much equidistant from Basingstoke and Micheldever stations.
I bought a ticket to Micheldever, but before boarding got a call from my cousin asking if I needed a lift from Basingstoke.
I *could* have just said 'Yes, that'd be great', and assumed I could stop short. Instead, I checked with staff to make sure and as it happened, it was fine. But I didn't *know*, so I checked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OP travelled with Thameslink from London Bridge.

Regarding your point (in bold), that's precisely my point. I was sure that Gatwick was very much a part of London. Which is why I decided to use my contactless card. It wasn't a matter of 'Oh is Gatwick in London? Can I use my Contactless for this trip? I better ask.'
It was 'Well, the airport website says London Gatwick, my flight ticket says London Gatwick, the journey planner has a straight forward route presentation to Gatwick (with no disclaimer/ warning to avoid using a Contactless). Brilliant, I'll just use my contactless card for this'

Because, I am led to assume that you can use your Contactless anywhere in London and also see advertisements for Sussex Gatwick (as I know call it) as 'Your London airport'.
And it's for this reason you have penalties being handed out to unknowing punters who think the same way. It's Londoners (like myself) who get caught out too.

And whilst there is information on the website, you do as viabank kindly put it earlier, have to go on a treasure trail to find it.

 

[NSEFAN]

I would also remind you that, outside the UK, ticket gates are basically non-existent on mainline Inter-City services. Outside the UK, they are almost exclusively found on metros. These are closed systems. One cannot enter or leave the system without walking through a gateline or past a validator. So it is easy to assume, if you have no experience of our bizarre semi-gated system, that if you pass through a validator on one end, there will be another at the other end allowing you to pay as you go.

It may be easy to assume things, but ultimately if a person is new to a country then arguably they have an even greater responsibility to check what the local ticketing arrangements are. It's not difficult to do at all.

Several years ago, I made the mistake of assuming that railway BoJ rules applied to equally to buses and quickly found out that they didn't. I had to buy a new ticket as a result but I don't resent the company for not communicating this to me. The onus was on me to check that I could actually do what I wanted with my ticket. I failed to check before buying the ticket and as a result I had pay up. In hindsight it was stupid of me. Lesson learned, life goes on.

 

[Llanigraham]

But when they travel from Caterham station they are in London zone 6. How does that work?

The question was, did they consider themselves living in London, not what their train situation was.
I repeat, they do not consider they live in London!
And having spoken to my brother in law who lives in Warlingham, neither does he.
They all say they live in SURREY!!

 

[EM2]

Regarding your point (in bold), that's precisely my point. I was sure that Gatwick was very much a part of London. Which is why I decided to use my contactless card. It wasn't a matter of 'Oh is Gatwick in London? Can I use my Contactless for this trip? I better ask.'

You're a Londoner who thinks Gatwick is part of London? You are literally the first that I've encountered in my forty-five years on this planet.

 

[snail]

I was sure that Gatwick was very much a part of London. Which is why I decided to use my contactless card. It wasn't a matter of 'Oh is Gatwick in London? Can I use my Contactless for this trip? I better ask.'

What I find surprising with this discussion is that no one appears to want to check the cost of the journey in advance.

If I'm travelling 30-odd miles I would like to know the correct fare, not rely on some vague "contactless is cheaper" message or similar.

 

[archwaykid]

You're a Londoner who thinks Gatwick is part of London? You are literally the first that I've encountered in my forty-five years on this planet.

Again, you misunderstand.
Geographically, I know and understand that Gatwick is a part of Sussex. But I, along with all who get similar penalties, are led to believe that Gatwick is part of the London network. Because it is touted as London Gatwick. Furthermore, there aren't any clear indications (by GTR/ TFL) to restrict people from using their contactless/ Oyster for the same.
Therefore misleading people to use a Contactless because it is 'London' Gatwick. Hope that makes sense?

 

[EM2]

Again, you misunderstand.
Geographically, I know and understand that Gatwick is a part of Sussex. But I, along with all who get similar penalties, are led to believe that Gatwick is part of the London network. Because it is touted as London Gatwick. Furthermore, there aren't any clear indications (by GTR/ TFL) to restrict people from using their contactless/ Oyster for the same.
Therefore misleading people to use a Contactless because it is 'London' Gatwick. Hope that makes sense?

Nope. Makes no sense at all. There is nothing to lead you to believe that Gatwick is part of the London network, except the operators of said airport calling it London Gatwick. As far as I am aware, it is NOT touted as London Gatwick by any rail operator.
There is no TfL literature (leaflets, maps and so on) that suggests it is within the London zonal system.
There is nothing specifically saying that Oyster or contactless are permitted to be used to Gatwick. I get numerous enquiries every day from people ASKING if they can use either product to Gatwick or Luton airports.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The official national rail name for the station is "Gatwick Airport". There is no London in the railway station name. Whatever the Airport calls itself doesn't matter as far as the railway is concerned.

There don't seem to be as many issues with travellers going to Stanstead?