My suggestion for 377s up north?

[alexl92]

Seeing as so many have been/are being produced for Southern, what are the chances of a 25kv AC version of the Class 377 EMU being produced for commuter services in the north?

We're constantly being told that there are no more carriages available but surely if some are being produced for the south you could tack an order on the end for the north as well to help cover some services over electrified lines that are currently diesel-hauled.

I don't know much about the 377s if I'm honest but the fact that Southern have invested in so many surely means they're decent enough?

(Note: This is not a north vs south thread... please don't take it there!)

 

[A0]

Seeing as so many have been/are being produced for Southern, what are the chances of a 25kv AC version of the Class 377 EMU being produced for commuter services in the north?

We're constantly being told that there are no more carriages available but surely if some are being produced for the south you could tack an order on the end for the north as well to help cover some services over electrified lines that are currently diesel-hauled.

I don't know much about the 377s if I'm honest but the fact that Southern have invested in so many surely means they're decent enough?

(Note: This is not a north vs south thread... please don't take it there!)

There's no shortage of AC emus suitable for commuter services in the North - the 319s come free shortly and so will 317s as 700s come on stream.

Also 315s will be coming free as Crossrail goes live.

The reason why Thameslink and Crossrail need new units is the existing ones aren't suitable for the needs of those routes moving forward.

 

[northwichcat]

Honestly I think a mixture of 3 and 4 car 377s would have been better for the North than only fixed 4 car 319s.

People argue Southern need a mix of lengths as they must have 10 car workings and it wouldn't be sensible to extend relevant platforms to take 12 car, so there's no reason why the same reasoning shouldn't apply up here if it's deemed 3 or 6 cars are needed on certain electrified lines.

 

[Clip]

Youll probably get them in 20 years time

 

[NotATrainspott]

Fundamentally there's no reason why the North couldn't get brand new electric trains. At the moment though there is a surplus of electric trains which would work on the routes for many years to come though, so there's no business case for new ones to be built and the old ones scrapped prematurely. This would be the same regardless of the level of privatisation involved in our railway network.

Once there are no more EMUs available for cascade, any more electrification works will require new EMUs. Since there is basically a continuous stream of EMUs being ordered somewhere in the country, and as the designs for said EMUs are far more flexible (as in, the same basic Bombardier production line and train design could build inner-suburban 75mph Class 378s as well as longer-distance 110mph Class 379s without any hassle at all) there would always be a production line open somewhere for even just a small order of new EMUs to be tagged on.

 

[Donny Dave]

Youll probably get them in 20 years time

I was going to say, they're far too new for the likes of us oop norf! :P

 

[Haydn1971]

Buy some diesels or bi-modes now haha !

/stuck record

 

[47802]

Seeing as so many have been/are being produced for Southern, what are the chances of a 25kv AC version of the Class 377 EMU being produced for commuter services in the north?

We're constantly being told that there are no more carriages available but surely if some are being produced for the south you could tack an order on the end for the north as well to help cover some services over electrified lines that are currently diesel-hauled.

I don't know much about the 377s if I'm honest but the fact that Southern have invested in so many surely means they're decent enough?

(Note: This is not a north vs south thread... please don't take it there!)

If you had done a bit of basic research you would know that some 377's are already dual voltage, that the latest version of the 377 is the 387 but bombardier want stop making this after the current orders for their new Aventra train which will be built for Crossrail. There are plenty of 319 to cascade to Northern at the moment, the 315's should be binned, and any new order will need to go out to tender although any need for compatibility with current stock will likely rule in favour of the manufacturer of the existing stock hence further 377 order for Southern and further 350 order London Midland

 

[northwichcat]

will likely rule in favour of the manufacturer of the existing stock hence further 377 order for Southern and further 350 order London Midland

377s and 350s are out-dated products no longer being offered.

 

[47802]

377s and 350s are out-dated products no longer being offered.

Yes I am aware of that I was referring to the recent additional 377/6/7 orders for Southern and 350/3 for Midland, I was demonstrating that the winning bidder may be influenced by requirement of compatibility with previous stock, and desire to have a similar train that wouldn't need much staff retraining etc, obviously there are limits to that as train design moves on in any case.

 

[thealexweb]

377s and 350s are out-dated products no longer being offered.

When this is true I find it sheer madness that TPE's Class 350s may end up with Northern Rail. To Northern Rail its just another microfleet from them to look after when it could be better utilised by making more London Midland services eight cars.

 

[RobShipway]

Yes I am aware of that I was referring to the recent additional 377/6/7 orders for Southern and 350/3 for Midland, I was demonstrating that the winning bidder may be influenced by requirement of compatibility with previous stock, and desire to have a similar train that wouldn't need much staff retraining etc, obviously there are limits to that as train design moves on in any case.

The 379 & 387 is also a continuation of the class 377 just with updated parts.

The Aventra is basically a class 377 updated on Voyager bogies.

 

[47802]

The 379 & 387 is also a continuation of the class 377 just with updated parts.

The Aventra is basically a class 377 updated on Voyager bogies.

I doubt Bombardier would agree with you that one, I believe the Aventra body is substancially altered and the whole train to reduce weight. not just the bogies.

 

[northwichcat]

When this is true I find it sheer madness that TPE's Class 350s may end up with Northern Rail. To Northern Rail its just another microfleet from them to look after when it could be better utilised by making more London Midland services eight cars.

The 350/4s are different to the other 350s in the LM fleet due to having a third toilet, better facilities for on board trolleys and having 2+1 seating in the First Class area.

350/4s to Northern is an option being considered. An alternative option could be to strip the 333s of their interiors and give them 'regional express' interiors to the required specification but I'm not sure that'll go down well in Leeds if 'regional express' electric services are mainly Manchester Airport to Lancashire/Cumbria.

 

[Blamethrower]

I quite like 377s just not their doors. When it works it's great, no "beep beep beep, doors are opening" crap like you get on 350s, decreasing dwell times considerably.

I also quite like the 319s yet hate the seating (change the record I know) but if they took out the old seats and put in some new ones, in a more suitable configuration, then passengers wouldn't feel so short changed.

Current 319s in Northern livery look like the same old crap they've used oop north for years, just they lose a diesel engine and gain a pantograph.

Whoopy frikkin doo.


hen units are cascaded, should they not be subject to the same safety checks as new trains as they are running on a new line?

 

[47802]

Current 319s in Northern livery look like the same old crap they've used oop north for years, just they lose a diesel engine and gain a pantograph.

Whoopy frikkin doo.

Well still better than a Railbus, and it will deliver extra capacity, lets see what the next franchise brings you would hope for a better refurb of the 319's while the ITT requires a new and fully refurbished diesel fleet along with regional expresses, it is time that was a step change in the quality of rolling stock on Northern lets hope the new franchise delivers, in the mean time it is what it is and another North South moan doesn't really get anywhere.

 

[Clip]

hen units are cascaded, should they not be subject to the same safety checks as new trains as they are running on a new line?

In what way? They are already certified to run on the railway so what new safety checks do you think they should have?

 

[D60]

Honestly I think a mixture of 3 and 4 car 377s would have been better for the North than only fixed 4 car 319s.

People argue Southern need a mix of lengths as they must have 10 car workings and it wouldn't be sensible to extend relevant platforms to take 12 car, so there's no reason why the same reasoning shouldn't apply up here if it's deemed 3 or 6 cars are needed on certain electrified lines.

Yes, I can see that a single fleet of 4-car 319s could be quite limiting... recognising that 3-car units running as 6-car twins would be advantagious for peak services on the Bolton corridor, for example..

But 319s are what are available... others have explained why there (currently) is not a sufficient business case for brand new custom built emus for the Northern franchise... And it has previously been reasoned on other threads that since 319s were designed and built as 4-car sets with their vital equipment spread across all 4 cars, that it might not be cost-effective to rebuild them as 3-car.. And that any money to be spent on them might be better directed towards interior upgrades to contemporary standards, eg 2+2 seating, and maybe 'regional' spec for a sub-fleet..

However, what about the 317s that are coming available at some point? They are much more closely related to the 3-car Glasgow area 318s.. and are equipped with end-corridor connections... Is there any scope within either classes to provide Northern with a fleet of 3-car electric units..?

Or even the 315s, which are effectively a 3-car train with a trailer inserted.. (even though one poster here thinks they should be binned, and who am I to disagree..!)

Or maybe all this has been gone over in great detail on other numerous other threads before.. apologies if it has...!

 

[Class377/5]

The 379 & 387 is also a continuation of the class 377 just with updated parts.

The Aventra is basically a class 377 updated on Voyager bogies.

Techinally the 379/387 along with the 377/6 & /7 are based on the Aventra mkI bodyshell and Crossrail 345 based on the Aventra mkII bodyshell.

The Electrostars (which many on this thread have confused with 377s) are as close to the Aventra (new) model as the Electrostars are to Networkers.

 

[Minstral25]

Honestly I think a mixture of 3 and 4 car 377s would have been better for the North than only fixed 4 car 319s.

People argue Southern need a mix of lengths as they must have 10 car workings and it wouldn't be sensible to extend relevant platforms to take 12 car, so there's no reason why the same reasoning shouldn't apply up here if it's deemed 3 or 6 cars are needed on certain electrified lines.

There is 211 class 377 units and 86 319's. You would end up with mixed fleets of 319 & 377's in the South. Surely better to have one fleet in each location.

 

[northwichcat]

There is 211 class 377 units and 86 319's. You would end up with mixed fleets of 319 & 377's in the South. Surely better to have one fleet in each location.

It's unlikely Northern will need 86 x 319s in the forseeable future and it's also unlikely that 319s would be the only EMU in the Northern fleet - 3 car 323s may remain, 4 car 350/4s may transfer to Northern for 'Regional Express' services etc.

It's likely Northern will retain a 'West Side' EMU fleet and an 'East Side' one with different crews and maintenance people involved with the West and East fleets, so one type of EMU for both sides would have little advantage.

If rumours are true that Southeastern will be taking on 377s in the long term then the 377s won't all remain with one operator.

 

[D365]

If rumours are true that Southeastern will be taking on 377s in the long term then the 377s won't all remain with one operator.

A Class 375 is practically the same thing. Also, the 377/5s currently operating Thameslink will be taken on by GN for Cambridge express duties, presumably the entire 23 to allow the present fleet to be released (19 365s remaining for Peterborough peak service).

 

[AM9]

hen units are cascaded, should they not be subject to the same safety checks as new trains as they are running on a new line?

What sort of safety checks have you in mind?

 

[northwichcat]

A Class 375 is practically the same thing.

On that basis another cascade adds up perfectly:

21 x 319s to Anglia
All 21 of Anglia's 360s to LM (along with the 5 released 360s from Heathrow Connect)
All 26 of LM's 323 to Northern.

End result = more consistent fleets for Anglia, LM and Northern!

 

[Class 170101]

Erm leave the GA 360s alone thank you.

 

[northwichcat]

Erm leave the GA 360s alone thank you.

People only want consistent fleets when it means their area gets decent trains (like 350/4s for LM.)

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

All 26 of LM's 323 to Northern.

My money has been on a combined 323 fleet all along...but I sort of presumed it was the other way, with 4 car 319s for Northern and the fleet moving to LM.

I would have thought everyone would be jumping for joy at getting 4 car units running as 4 or 4+4....ho hum....short platforms

Anyway...I stood at CJ yesterday morning from 10 until 10:45 (daughter doing an exam at the RAD in Battersea, any excuse). I was hoping to pick up the odd /6 and /7 I needed and was surprised to see almost every 10 car set made up 4+3+3...to me a total waste of 3 car units that could be used elsewhere [what few 5 and 5+5 sets I did see leaves me just 1 /6...yippee!]

Surely there is so much wasted (cab) space on 4+3+3 compared to 5+5? Why are so many trains booked like this? Or are some /6s out or did Southern just not order enough?

 

[northwichcat]

My money has been on a combined 323 fleet all along...but I sort of presumed it was the other way, with 4 car 319s for Northern and the fleet moving to LM.

I would have thought everyone would be jumping for joy at getting 4 car units running as 4 or 4+4....ho hum....short platforms

And yet 4 car 319s create that exact problem in the North. Also their acceleration is apparently too poor to run Stoke and Hadfield services, so Northern Rail (West) will need something alongside 319s. Leaving 323s with Northern Rail is one solution to that.

I was hoping to pick up the odd /6 and /7 I needed and was surprised to see almost every 10 car set made up 4+3+3...to me a total waste of 3 car units that could be used elsewhere [what few 5 and 5+5 sets I did see leaves me just 1 /6...yippee!]

Do Southern operate any 5 or 9 car formations using 5 car 377s?

 

[AM9]

People only want consistent fleets when it means their area gets decent trains (like 350/4s for LM.)

Or the 323s for Northern that you have praised so many times on this forum.

 

[edwin_m]

What sort of safety checks have you in mind?

There is already a process of route acceptance, which aims to ensure that trains that haven't run on a particular route before are compatible with it.