New fourth platform at Manchester Airport station.

[dggar]

Why?

If you're going to London/Birmingham it's faster to change at Warrington Bank Quay.

If you're going to West/North/East Yorkshire or the North East the fast services are being moved to Victoria.

If you're going to South Yorkshire from Chester the fastest journey option is using the Northern service to Stockport (which is supposed become a semi-fast service in December 2017 so will get even faster.)

Metrolink connections to places on the Altrincham/Airport line from Chester would be reached fastest by joining Metrolink at Altrincham opposed to in Manchester.

Metrolink connections to places on the Bury/Rochdale lines would improve by sending Chester services to Victoria.

Salford Quays is the problem Metrolink destination but if it's important then stopping Chester-Victoria trains at Eccles would provide better journey times than going via Piccadilly (as you'd currently need to.)

There's also poorer links to the Eithad Stadium but then are those used much on non-match days?

Which stations on the Airport line would you choose to travel to from Altrincham.
Only a tram nut would use the metrolink to go from Altrincham to the airport.

 

[northwichcat]

This is a conditional output from Phase 1 of the Study and is shown as the requirement for Airport Connectivy on p64 of the Phase 2 study.

So in a document not even available on the link you were directing me to? How very convenient for you that it's not publicly available and your memory can verify what is and isn't correct.

the conditional output for the Hub was for 1 tph for all major corridors except 2 to Leeds.

So taking your quote literally surely Chester to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows and Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows can't both be extended to the Airport as they are the same corridor?

Or if they are classed as different corridors then surely Preston to Manchester via Wigan is a different corridor to Preston to Manchester via Chorley?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which stations on the Airport line would you choose to travel to from Altrincham.
Only a tram nut would use the metrolink to go from Altrincham to the airport.

Airport line not the Airport. Altrincham to Chorlton, for instance.

 

[lejog]

So in a document not even available on the link you were directing me to? How very convenient for you that it's not publicly available and your memory can verify what is and isn't correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A. Manchester Hub Conditional Output Statement (April 2009), a pdf linked to from http://www.northernwaytransportcompact.com/The_Northern_Hub.html which is the output document from Phase 1 of the study (consultant speak I know but there's a hint in the title). Part 1: The Conditional Outputs, Section 7 Manchester Airport, para 1.18 (on p10) says:

1.18 The requirement is for direct services of at least hourly interval service frequency in each of the principal corridors (30 minutes in the case of the Yorkshire and the Humberand North East via Leeds corridor)

B. Manchester Hub Rail Study by Network Rail (link you posted), Figure 6.4 (which is in fact a table) entitled Achievement compared to conditional outputs , Row 7 Manchester Airport, on p64 says:

The requirement is for direct services of at least hourly interval service frequency in each of the principal corridors (30 minutes in the case of the Yorkshire and the Humber and North East via Leeds corridor)…

But from memory it seems to me that Preston with (approx) 3tph to the Airport has done rather better than the 1tph required by the Hub

I believe my memory is in fine shape, thank you.

You're wrong about 1tph between Preston and the Airport. (It has been 2tph since the late 1990s.)

Whatever the level of service provided in the 1990s, now or in the future, the requirement for the Hub was 1tph. Where I suggest the problem lies is your lack of understanding of what I meant when by "1tph required by the Hub", A solution that offer 1,2 or even a dozen trains still meets the requirement.

I think we've bored people to death enough with this argument. I've at least learnt I have to be more explicit if replying to you.

 

[snail]

People talk about requirements and solutions as if they were immutable.

No, I don't really follow the discussion either. Northern Way was a consortium of regional development agencies that was wound up in 2011. Did they ever have any real power to impose requirements on the DfT/Network Rail?

 

[HowardGWR]

No, I don't really follow the discussion either. Northern Way was a consortium of regional development agencies that was wound up in 2011. Did they ever have any real power to impose requirements on the DfT/Network Rail?

RDAs never had real power, except money (while they existed).

 

[richardio123]

Which stations on the Airport line would you choose to travel to from Altrincham.
Only a tram nut would use the metrolink to go from Altrincham to the airport.

Really? because it seems a lot easier to do so than a train.

 

[dggar]

[

Which stations on the Airport line would you choose to travel to from Altrincham.
Only a tram nut would use the metrolink to go from Altrincham to the airport.

Airport line not the Airport. Altrincham to Chorlton, for instance.

If you read my posting you will see I said Airport Line.

The trams to Chorlton run through Victoria so that would seem to me to be the more logical place to change if your journey was from Chester to Chorlton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really? because it seems a lot easier to do so than a train.

Yes really

From GMPTE journey planner:
Bus 23Mins


Leave11:55 Altrincham, Altrincham Interchange
Arrive12:18 Manchester Airport
Service Number18
Provider Arriva North West
Route Altrincham - Airport - Sale - Trafford Centre

Tram 1Hr 6Mins


(17m) Leave11:55 Altrincham Station (Manchester Metrolink)
Arrive12:12 Trafford Bar (Manchester Metrolink)

(2m) Leave12:12 Trafford Bar (Manchester Metrolink)
Arrive12:14 Trafford Bar (Manchester Metrolink)

(38m) Leave12:23 Trafford Bar (Manchester Metrolink)
Arrive13:01 Manchester Airport (Manchester Metrolink)


Train 1Hr 8Mins



(31m) Leave11:59 Altrincham Rail Station
Arrive12:30 Manchester Piccadilly Rail Station

(21m) Leave12:46 Manchester Piccadilly Rail Station
Arrive13:07 Manchester Airport Rail Station

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to hark back to the thread title of platform 4 at Manchester Airport railway station, what DEFINITE service news of operational usage is actually known at this present point of time?

 

[snowball]

Just to hark back to the thread title of platform 4 at Manchester Airport railway station, what DEFINITE service news of operational usage is actually known at this present point of time?

An excellent question! I've seen statements that it will come into use with the May timetable change, but no details of which trains.

 

[northwichcat]

I believe my memory is in fine shape, thank you.

1.18 The requirement is for direct services of at least hourly interval service frequency in each of the principal corridors (30 minutes in the case of the Yorkshire and the Humberand North East via Leeds corridor)

while Chester and Southport (each also due 1tph) have missed out.

So I'm guessing you envisaged Southport-Airport services would be diverted via Atherton, otherwise that would have left 2 Airport services per hour on the Bolton corridor, something you argued wasn't allowed for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An excellent question! I've seen statements that it will come into use with the May timetable change, but no details of which trains.

RTT's not showing any trains using platform 4 post-May timetable change at present.

Mon: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MIA/2015/05/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Sat: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MIA/2015/05/23/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Sun: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MIA/2015/05/24/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Viscount702]

Just to hark back to the thread title of platform 4 at Manchester Airport railway station, what DEFINITE service news of operational usage is actually known at this present point of time?

I think it might be suffering the Todmorden Curve Syndrome.

We were told by NR on 9 February that the works had been completed. I think we knew that wasn't quite correct as there were a few works going on. We were also told by NR platform would come in use on May timetable change.

I still don't think the platform is ready.

Why.
1 as noted above nothing shown using it from May onwards in RTT

2 Pictures posted on SSC show

a)The emergency stairs are still being installed.

b) Although some name plates are up they are covered and

c) there are no PIDs.

The items in 2 could all be done and completed for May but the lack of platform use indicates it may not.


Is this another case of NR saying or implying work has been finished but in reality it hasn't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A. Manchester Hub Conditional Output Statement (April 2009), a pdf linked to from http://www.northernwaytransportcompact.com/The_Northern_Hub.html which is the output document from Phase 1 of the study

The document is I'm sure an important input to the planning process, and I recognise the frequencies and journey times proposed.
But that was 2009, and has been overtaken by a number of factors:
- TP electrification (announced and now postponed)
- HS3/Northern Powerhouse (ie new fast corridors)
- ITTs for revised franchises with new route specs
- funding (plenty at the moment, but for how long?)
- Northern Hub planning approvals (not through the maze yet)
- 2 elections and transport policies
- local devolution proposals

I'd call the Northern Way conditional outputs a strategic template or objectives, rather than requirements.
You only get requirements when you attach £££ and a timescale to a project plan.

 

[northwichcat]

If you read my posting you will see I said Airport Line.

The trams to Chorlton run through Victoria so that would seem to me to be the more logical place to change if your journey was from Chester to Chorlton.

You did make a reference to no-one would ever make an Altrincham-Airport journey unless they were a tram nut in the same post.

For Chester to Chorlton the fastest journeys Traveline finds involves ATW service to Oxford Rd followed by a bus or Northern to Altrincham followed by 2 trams.

Anyway, like I said I think journeys to Salford Quays would be the only real area of concern as a result of moving Chester services to Victoria (given other services are being moved to Victoria and Chester's direct service to Altrincham/Stockport will be speeded up) and if Chester to Salford Quays is a big market then adding an Eccles call to services would be the best way of meeting that requirement.

 

[dggar]

For Chester to Chorlton the fastest journeys Traveline finds involves ATW service to Oxford Rd followed by a bus or Northern to Altrincham followed by 2 trams.

.

I would have thought the quickest way would be to walk between Oxford Road Stn and the Tram stop in St Peter' Square or to walk from Oxford Road Stn to the Castlefield/Deansgate Tram Stop.

 

[snowball]

I think it might be suffering the Todmorden Curve Syndrome.

We were told by NR on 9 February that the works had been completed. I think we knew that wasn't quite correct as there were a few works going on. We were also told by NR platform would come in use on May timetable change.

I still don't think the platform is ready.

Why.
1 as noted above nothing shown using it from May onwards in RTT

2 Pictures posted on SSC show

a)The emergency stairs are still being installed.

b) Although some name plates are up they are covered and

c) there are no PIDs.

The items in 2 could all be done and completed for May but the lack of platform use indicates it may not.


Is this another case of NR saying or implying work has been finished but in reality it hasn't.

Undoubtedly P4 isn't finished but it was never likely to be used before the timetable change anyway. The heavy stuff was completed in Feb and some of the lighter stuff has been done since then. Despite the over-optimistic claim of completion there's no reason to believe it's behind schedule. The comparison with Todmorden is limited as it isn't delaying a new or keenly-awited passenger service. However, having watched it being built (and having been in several discussions on SSC even before it was built about how or whether it could be fitted in the available space) I would like to know when and for what it will be used.

 

[northwichcat]

I would have thought the quickest way would be to walk between Oxford Road Stn and the Tram stop in St Peter' Square or to walk from Oxford Road Stn to the Castlefield/Deansgate Tram Stop.

Maybe it's to do with buses being every 5 minutes and trams being every 12 from city centre stops (given Airport services turnaround at Cornbrook)

 

[Viscount702]

Undoubtedly P4 isn't finished but it was never likely to be used before the timetable change anyway. The heavy stuff was completed in Feb and some of the lighter stuff has been done since then. Despite the over-optimistic claim of completion there's no reason to believe it's behind schedule. The comparison with Todmorden is limited as it isn't delaying a new or keenly-awited passenger service. However, having watched it being built (and having been in several discussions on SSC even before it was built about how or whether it could be fitted in the available space) I would like to know when and for what it will be used.

As it has now be reported that NW electrification is unlikely now to be ready before the December 2017 timetable change (I think we knew that from the ITTs for Northern and TPE)who knows what may use it ATW would like to.

I was concerned to see that despite this electrification has been known about for years they are still in the process of designing it. You would have hoped that by now the design work on the bit you are building would be finished but clearly not.

 

[lejog]

No, I don't really follow the discussion either. Northern Way was a consortium of regional development agencies that was wound up in 2011. Did they ever have any real power to impose requirements on the DfT/Network Rail?

No Northern Way did not have any power to impose requirements on the DfT/Network Rail. Northern Way were commissioned by the government to define requirements based on economic benefits to the North in Phase I, against which Network Rail could propose a solution to in Phase 2 to justify to the government the release of £600m of public money. The real audience/end client of all this - the Treasury.

Who will be monitoring the success and/or failure of the project in providing economic benefit against the £600m public expenditure - the Treasury. It would be good if some taxpayer facing body also was monitoring this, its unclear to me at the moment whether Rail North will take up the reins from the Northern Way.

Does £600m grow on a money tree in the garden? No it comes from the Treasury. They aren't overly concerned with the detail about how many trains run from Preston to the Airport, or how you get from Chester to your destination, they want to see a return in economic terms on their investment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So I'm guessing you envisaged Southport-Airport services would be diverted via Atherton, otherwise that would have left 2 Airport services per hour on the Bolton corridor, something you argued wasn't allowed for.

Your guess is totally incorrect, I didn't envisage anything. I was commenting purely on requirements, implementation details are not of prime interest to me, the economic benefits of improving the transport system is more my line. Which is why I was working on phase 1 of the project, Network Rail would have considered the issues you raise in Phase 2.

And no I certainly did not argue that more than 1 tph was not allowed. That was your many red herrings. All I said that 3tph was better than both 1tph and 0tph, which is pretty self evident.

 

[northwichcat]

Your guess is totally incorrect, I didn't envisage anything.

Except an Airport service to both Southport and Chester and 1 Airport tph on all 'major corridors' except the Huddersfield one. :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am now in the fifth week of waiting for an answer to the query that I submitted to Network Rail about matters that have occurred since the three-week closure of Manchester Airport railway station that occurred in January/February this year.

 

[lejog]

Except an Airport service to both Southport and Chester and 1 Airport tph on all 'major corridors' except the Huddersfield one. :roll:

LOL, you personalise things far too much. I'm afraid I can take no credit (or discredit) for that requirement - it was the output of a team effort to which I made a small contribution 6 years ago.

 

[snail]

No Northern Way did not have any power to impose requirements on the DfT/Network Rail. Northern Way were commissioned by the government to define requirements based on economic benefits to the North in Phase I, against which Network Rail could propose a solution to in Phase 2 to justify to the government the release of £600m of public money. The real audience/end client of all this - the Treasury.
...
Does £600m grow on a money tree in the garden? No it comes from the Treasury. They aren't overly concerned with the detail about how many trains run from Preston to the Airport, or how you get from Chester to your destination

So you 'define requirements' but the Treasury aren't concerned about the detail. Still lost. If the Treasury are paying for the NR 'solution' then your requirements are irrelevant.

 

[northwichcat]

LOL, you personalise things far too much. I'm afraid I can take no credit (or discredit) for that requirement - it was the output of a team effort to which I made a small contribution 6 years ago.

I think a number of your posts can be summarised as simply:

it seems to me that Preston with (approx) 3tph to the Airport has done rather better than the 1tph required by the Hub, while Chester and Southport (each also due 1tph) have missed out.

The requirement is for direct services of at least hourly interval service frequency in each of the principal corridors (30 minutes in the case of the Yorkshire and the Humber and North East via Leeds corridor)

You seemed reluctant to give any details on your claims initially and then when you eventually did you wouldn't say if a Southport-Bolton-Airport service would be a second Airport service on the same 'principal corridor' as Preston-Bolton-Airport, so indirectly you wouldn't say what a 'principal corridor' was.

Is this a photo of you by any chance: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/George_osborne_hi.jpg ?

 

[lejog]

Except an Airport service to both Southport and Chester and 1 Airport tph on all 'major corridors' except the Huddersfield one. :roll:

LOL, you personalise things far too much. I'm afraid I can take no credit (or discredit) for that requirement - it was the output of a team effort to which I made a small contribution 6 years ago.

 

[Starmill]

I'm lost.

Are we saying there is now (as a result of spending millions of pounds on Platform four) spare platform capacity at Manchester Airport, 'white space' in the timetable, and a train that sits in the way at Mayfield Siding for 55 minutes but we aren't going to extend it to Manchester Airport? The joys of the privatised railway...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm lost.

Are we saying there is now (as a result of spending millions of pounds on Platform four) spare platform capacity at Manchester Airport, 'white space' in the timetable, and a train that sits in the way at Mayfield Siding for 55 minutes but we aren't going to extend it to Manchester Airport? The joys of the privatised railway...

Well, it does nicely finish off the general ambience of the Manchester Metrolink adjoining terminal station.

Did you see my posting a few posts earlier about the current wait in hearing from Network Rail re my enquiry about the fourth platform.

 

[snowball]

I'm lost.

Are we saying there is now (as a result of spending millions of pounds on Platform four) spare platform capacity at Manchester Airport, 'white space' in the timetable, and a train that sits in the way at Mayfield Siding for 55 minutes but we aren't going to extend it to Manchester Airport? The joys of the privatised railway...

I believe the main reason platform 4 was built when it was, was to avoid the disruption to the Metrolink line that would have happened if the heavy bridgeworks under Outwood Lane had been done later, after the Metrolink line was open, and the extra expense that would have been involved.

However it will surely still be useful to reduce the amount of doubling up of two trains on one platform.

 

[CdBrux]

I'm lost.

Are we saying there is now (as a result of spending millions of pounds on Platform four) spare platform capacity at Manchester Airport, 'white space' in the timetable, and a train that sits in the way at Mayfield Siding for 55 minutes but we aren't going to extend it to Manchester Airport? The joys of the privatised railway...

The privatised railway (the TOC) as I understand would like to run their trian to the Airport. The state (NR or DfT) have said no as once Ordsall chord is completed the path would no longer exist.

So the privatised railway would have delivered what you want but the state / nationalised part is stopping it!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The privatised railway (the TOC) as I understand would like to run their trian to the Airport. The state (NR or DfT) have said no as once Ordsall chord is completed the path would no longer exist.

So the privatised railway would have delivered what you want but the state / nationalised part is stopping it!

I'm not sure it's quite like that.
ATW do not operate their current skeleton services to the Airport under Open Access, it's part of the spec agreed with the Welsh Government (who control the franchise).
The WG (the state) wants more services to the Airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am now in the fifth week of waiting for an answer to the query that I submitted to Network Rail about matters that have occurred since the three-week closure of Manchester Airport railway station that occurred in January/February this year.

In my inbox this morning was the reply from Network Rail stating....

"Thank you for your reply regarding platform 4 at Manchester Airport station.

The new platform 4 is scheduled to come into use from the May 2015 timetable change, due on 16/17 May"

Nothing more...nothing less.