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Caught accidentally short-faring, any help? [originally "Rights"]
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
No, they do not have to.
We generally call it 'cautioning'.
We generally call it 'cautioning'.
No, a revenue protection inspector (RPI), or revenue protection officer (RPO) has every right to ask you about your ticket, or any other issue relevant to your travel on the railway and in accordance with National Railway Byelaw 23, you are required to give your name and address if asked.
That may lead to a written report known as a TIR or Travel Irregularity Report, or an Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN) and in some areas and where authorised to do so, may result in a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN).
When a Police & Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) trained RPI suspects an offence has been committed, which might result in Court action, s/he should Caution the 'suspect' before conducting a brief interview and at that point the notes that may form a part of the inspector's statement will be taken.
On completion of that interview the inspector should read the notes aloud to you whilst allowing you to see what is written and offer you the opportunity to sign them if you agree that they are correct.
Many people labour under a misunderstanding here. It does not matter if you do not sign the notes, your refusal to sign does not mean that you cannot be prosecuted. The inspector will simply note that the opportunity was given and where practical will get another member of staff to witness that if one is present.
This is exactly the same process that should be followed by a Police officer in the same position, but in the main the Police do not get detailed training in railway ticket offences and it will usually be an RPI who reports any transgression of this nature.
In general, you do not have to be cautioned to be legally asked for your name and address for report.
EDIT: Ah! Apologies for repetition, Dave & I typing at the same time, but his was much more concise as always.
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MichaelAMW
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Whilst I don't doubt you know this, being an expert, it might be worth expanding on what "in accordance with byelaw 23" means:
So there has to be *reasonable* suspicion, by which I assume that means able to be reasoned. I think this is important as it means someone checking your tickets who simply, for any reason, doesn't know enough about the situation can't just demand your name and address just because he feels there is something not quite right. E.g. a guard who has never had routeing guide training is in no position to claim your ticket is not valid on a particular route, unless it's an utterly gross deviation, e.g. Reading - London via Manchester, so he can't then demand your details if you insist you are going to use your (valid) ticket, since he doesn't have the necessary information to make a reasoned judgement.
Or have I missed something here?
Yes exactly, in such a dispute there has to be a reasonable belief in the mind of the inspector that a ticket is not valid for the purpose that it is being used. However, it is also worth remembering the fact that all rail tickets remain the property of the rail companies at all times.
Whilst if unsure, staff may show discretion, there is never an obligation to do so and to take this to the literal extreme, if that member of staff decided to withdraw the ticket for investigation, the holder would be obliged to give their name and address for report. The member of staff will say words to the effect that 'I am withdrawing this ticket because I believe it.......' is being misused, .......is invalid by way of X, or whatever is the relevant disputed point and he may add '..and the company will contact you following their investigation.' Rights extend to all.
Before the anti-rail staff brigade sharpen their pitchforks, I am certainly not suggesting for one minute that staff should always take a hard line in this way, but it is not the case that staff are always obliged to 'take the travellers word' that a ticket is valid if they genuinely believe it may not be.
It is far better in my view to seek second opinion where practical in such circumstances, but what this sort of thing recognises is that all humans are fallible and there is a mechanism for dealing with it.
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"Reasonable" does not mean "able to be reasoned". It has a long, precise, and very boring legal definition, which I will badly summarize thus: a reasonable suspicion is one to which an average authorised officer might come faced with a certain set of facts.
Quite so and therefore if that person (the RPI) reaches a belief that a ticket is invalid, or misused s/he exercises the right to act accordingly.
Tell us what's happened to you and we will be better able to advise...
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Aye - for clarity, OP, there's certainly no defence in not having been read the caution
I got on from Irlam early in the morning. When I arrived at manchester, I was so tired, I wasn't even paying much attention. I didn't have a ticket so I couldn't get through the barrier hence I went to queue up to buy a ticket. When it was my turn, the guy asked me where I got on from to sell me a ticket. In that split moment, I honestly couldn't remember (first time travelling from Irlam) and then I panicked - the only station I could remember was deansgate so he sold me a ticket from deansgate to manchester.
As soon as that happened, a revenue protection officer came to me and took my ticket then asked me if I had a voucher. I said no. I knew I was in trouble, I just froze...trying to remember the name of the station. Afterwards, I confessed to coming from Irlam (I know it sounds like an excuse but it was a genuine mistake...I had no intention to dodge the fare)
He took my details and said I should expect a letter.
He didn't even show ID to me or anything...
I've been reading forums and how people can get criminal records from it. I'm a law student so if I get a criminal record, I will never be able to practice law so I'm realy worried
As soon as that happened, a revenue protection officer came to me and took my ticket then asked me if I had a voucher. I said no. I knew I was in trouble, I just froze...trying to remember the name of the station. Afterwards, I confessed to coming from Irlam (I know it sounds like an excuse but it was a genuine mistake...I had no intention to dodge the fare)
He took my details and said I should expect a letter.
He didn't even show ID to me or anything...
I've been reading forums and how people can get criminal records from it. I'm a law student so if I get a criminal record, I will never be able to practice law so I'm realy worried
PermitToTravel
Established Member
They get that every day from so many of the people who are stopped; they don't believe it from anyone else; they won't believe it from you.
Until you get the letter, there's nothing you can do - but when you do get it, don't expect to be able to get away with saying something as unbelievable as that. You're very likely (almost guaranteed) to get away without a criminal record if you're honest with them.
Until you get the letter, there's nothing you can do - but when you do get it, don't expect to be able to get away with saying something as unbelievable as that. You're very likely (almost guaranteed) to get away without a criminal record if you're honest with them.
Sorry but the staff will have heard all this before, hundreds of times.
Why name a closer station than your origin instead of telling them you're unfamiliar with the railway and can't remember the station you waited at (that had 'Irlam' signs all over it)?
To them it looks like you've intentionally asked for a short fare and it's a distinct possibility that you'll face a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act. Before that happens, assuming it was Northern Rail staff who apprehended you, they may write to you asking for your version of events, and if you're lucky they'll offer to drop the matter in exchange for £80 or so.
This is called a
RJ
Established Member
A member of staff can make a wrongful assumption about a ticket. They can be pointed in the direction of the correct information, have that shown, explained and spoonfed to them, but still decide that the correct information should be ignored. Regardless, that suspicion, if upheld, can still be seen as reasonable. So a "reasonable suspicion" doesn't have to be based on possession of facts or relevant knowledge - possibly an area in law where ignorance can be used as a valid justification.
The upshot is, the byelaws allow a margin for sloppiness and incompetence on the part of railway staff - the "reasonable suspicion" excuse for requesting details and enacting powers of removal is open to abuse by railway staff, particularly those who have a problem with being seen to be wrong. Personally I don't think the byelaws should ever be abused, but there are instances where it happens.
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I always think it best to ignore the
The TOC are not obliged to allow the opportunity and a traveller is not obliged to accept it. Rejecting that offer does not prejudice your defence.
You can have the evidence tested if you strongly believe that you are innocent of an offence.
As a law student I'm sure that the OP will understand this, but be aware that there was a self-service machine at Irlam to pay at the station so rather than the short offer allegation (RoRA 5.3.a) a strict liability offence (Byelaw 18.1) might be charged, or added.
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Johnuk123
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If you want to practice law and you can't even remember which station you got on at I wouldn't want you representing me.
At the risk of sounding like another forum member, this tale of woe is due to the coincidence of four things:
1. You couldn't buy a ticket (somehow you missed the ticket machine at Irlam and there was no opportunity to purchase on the train).
2. You travelled from an unbarriered station to one which has barriers.
3. You were so tired that you couldn't remember which station you boarded at and picked the name of another station out of the blue,
4. That wrongly named station just happens to have a lower fare than the one you actually boarded at.
Quite the sequence of unfortunate events. :roll:
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
As a Law student, you will have easy access to case law. Perhaps the most often cited incident of a passenger asking for a 'short fare' is Bremme v Dubery 1964. As you probably realise now, fare evasion is a Criminal Offence (not a civil matter) and so the standard of Evidence required to secure a Prosecution against you has to be to the higher standard of "beyond all reasonable doubt" and not just a "balance of probabilities". So it might surprise you that I'm going to answer you in terms of probabilities:
For a defence against 'short fare' duing one of those revenue checks to be persuasive, seven factors will normally apply:
Now, you have told us that it was your first time travelling from Irlam. That removes one of the coincidences. Do you think that this shifts the odds significantly in your favour?
If this is the first time you have been detected with a ticket irregularity, then I agree that Northern Rail are not likely to take your incident towards prosecution, as they operate their 'Failure to Pay' scheme for first time offenders in which the passenger is offered an alternative means of disposing with the incident through an administrative charge. It is less expensive than many other operator's typical administrative settlements an £80.
I dissent from the view of JakeF that there is anything even remotely comparable to a bribe in that offer. You are under no pressure from anyone to accept the offer, and may have your incident tested in the Magistrates Court in exactly the same was as any other Railway Company in England would do, and Northern Rail would be equally content to do so - their FTP scheme removes no right or opportunity from you, and introduces no risk or expense to you. By declining their offer, no damaging inferrence can be made about you or your intentions that could jeapordise justice being done.
Having said that, I would advise you to accept the offer if it is indeed offered to you, as I estimate the prospects of success of a Prosecution against you under Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to be extremely high. You should be aware that there have also been cases of this behaviour being successfully prosecuted under the Fraud Act. You are probably also aware that both of thes offences are classed as crimes of dishonesty in terms of the National Police Records Regulations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - comment to NajaB - - - - - - - - - - -
For a defence against 'short fare' duing one of those revenue checks to be persuasive, seven factors will normally apply:
- The passenger is a regular traveller between the 2 stations.
- This is a unique occasion on which the passenger 'forgot' to buy a ticket or was 'running late'.
- This is a unique occasion on which there is a revenue check at a different, intermediate station (which is closer to the destination).
- This is a unique occasion on which there is also a revenue check at the destination station (and the passenger is consequently unable to produce a valid ticket for inspection and is asked about their journey).
- Exceptionally, the passenger fails to recollect where they boarded the train.
- On questionning, the ticketless passenger wrongly remembers the name of that intermediate station they'd just passed through, where the revenue check is taking place (the intermediate station closer to the destination). (or perhaps deliberately states the name of the other station).
- The fare from the named station is lower than the fare from the station at the actual start of their journey.
Now, you have told us that it was your first time travelling from Irlam. That removes one of the coincidences. Do you think that this shifts the odds significantly in your favour?
If this is the first time you have been detected with a ticket irregularity, then I agree that Northern Rail are not likely to take your incident towards prosecution, as they operate their 'Failure to Pay' scheme for first time offenders in which the passenger is offered an alternative means of disposing with the incident through an administrative charge. It is less expensive than many other operator's typical administrative settlements an £80.
I dissent from the view of JakeF that there is anything even remotely comparable to a bribe in that offer. You are under no pressure from anyone to accept the offer, and may have your incident tested in the Magistrates Court in exactly the same was as any other Railway Company in England would do, and Northern Rail would be equally content to do so - their FTP scheme removes no right or opportunity from you, and introduces no risk or expense to you. By declining their offer, no damaging inferrence can be made about you or your intentions that could jeapordise justice being done.
Having said that, I would advise you to accept the offer if it is indeed offered to you, as I estimate the prospects of success of a Prosecution against you under Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to be extremely high. You should be aware that there have also been cases of this behaviour being successfully prosecuted under the Fraud Act. You are probably also aware that both of thes offences are classed as crimes of dishonesty in terms of the National Police Records Regulations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - comment to NajaB - - - - - - - - - - -
I 've recently increased the number of coincidental factors to seven. This is due to inflationary pressures!
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swt_passenger
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I'm quite amazed at the proportion of 'fare issues' reported in this forum by people who subsequently turn out to be worried about their future career in the law.
Perhaps law schools ought to consider adding a suitable message to their introductory lectures...
Johnuk123
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Good point.
RJ
Established Member
They do - but fare evasion is seen by some as one of those "socially acceptable" crimes that people (even some of those in respectable professions) laugh or boast about - well, until a criminal record becomes a real prospect.
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Thank you, I will wait for the letter but then I am unsure of what to write. I can't exactly say I'm innocent when I have made a mistake. Do I just write an apology saying I won't do it again and I've learnt my lesson? Do I need to explain what happened?
Haywain
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As an aside, and at risk of going off topic, do Northern Rail (or other TOCs) actually bother giving out vouchers in this way? It strikes me that the question is enough to catch most fare dodgers and chancers out, as they won't know whether vouchers were given out or not. By contrast a genuine person boarding at the designated station (Deansgate in this case) has a voucher if they were issued or would know that vouchers were not being issued and be able to answer appropriately.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
I've seen a photo of one of their vouchers. They look incredibly shoddy and almost home made, but I suppose they don't need to be any better. Handing each passenger a pebble would do
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Yes, they do.
But you appear to be correct in that people are willing to incriminate themselves quite happily, without a full trail of evidence being in place. . . . . evidence which quickly becomes unnecessary.
I don't think you're going to gain anything from trying to find fault with the Railways in this matter. It was your duty to show a valid ticket for travel on request, not the Inspector's duty to show ID when not requested.
There will always be technicalities which the skilled Defence solicitor can explore . . . . but that isn't one of them!
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Flamingo
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Moderators two points:
1. Can Dave's post #17 be made a "Stickie" on this forum?
2. The thread title would be more accurate by adding "Caught Bang To" to it
1. Can Dave's post #17 be made a "Stickie" on this forum?
2. The thread title would be more accurate by adding "Caught Bang To" to it
gray1404
Established Member
What are these voucher's the RPI was asking about?
As I understand it, when Northern are conducting a revenue operation they hand out vouchers to every passenger heading towards the terminus from certain hotspot stations. If you try to buy a ticket at the terminus without a voucher then you're bang to rights if you claim to have come from any of the voucher stations.
Thanks to Sheff1 for the reminder.
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