Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Scotrail84]

Why can't they leave the slam doors on the hsts?

 

[me123]

Because they're not compliant with the accessibility regulations for disabled passengers.

 

[Scotrail84]

Because they're not compliant with the accessibility regulations for disabled passengers.

They must be at the moment as the they run around no problem and have a wheelchair space for users.

 

[me123]

I'm not overly familiar with recent advancements in disability legislation, but I seem to recall a date of 2020 for full compliance? If this is the case, the HSTs will need to be compliant for most of their working lives with Scotrail, so might as well get them started just now.

Why do you think that they would benefit from having slam-doors? I can't say they're easier to use for anyone...

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm not overly familiar with recent advancements in disability legislation, but I seem to recall a date of 2020 for full compliance? If this is the case, the HSTs will need to be compliant for most of their working lives with Scotrail, so might as well get them started just now.

Why do you think that they would benefit from having slam-doors? I can't say they're easier to use for anyone...

Requirements for guards and depot security. In not saying they will be doo or anything just like the idea of proper trains, if of course they are compliant.

 

[me123]

There are plenty of trains with electronic doors that require the use of guards, including all current DMUs in the Scotrail fleet. I wouldn't worry about jobs. I'm no expert, but I can't imagine DOO happening on an HST, regardless of the type of door fitted. I am, of course, no expert, but the cab of the HST power car does not look like it would facilitate driver operated doors anyway.

I'd argue it would be rather inconvenient for the HSTs to have slam doors at some of the smaller unstaffed stations they'll be serving on the Highland Mainline and Aberdeen-Inverness routes. Better to have the guard looking after their train and their passengers than running up and down the platform at Huntly closing doors.

 

[Altnabreac]

Why can't they leave the slam doors on the hsts?

As well as the already mentioned accessibility rules I believe dwell times are the other issue.

The HSTs are being introduced specifically to reduce journey times as specified in the ITT.

With all slam door stock they would have to allow additional dwell time at each station.

On frequently stopping services with no platform staff like those intended for the HSTs this could add up significantly to increase overall times.

 

[Rhydgaled]

156s are the only rolling stock that fits those routes.

Ok, thanks. Sounds like I was right to guess at all other First ScotRail stock having retention toilets.

Why can't they leave the slam doors on the hsts?

As well as the already mentioned accessibility rules I believe dwell times are the other issue.

I think the accessiblity regulations allow slam-doors, but they would have to have internal door handles which they don't currently. Fitting internal handles and complying with saftey (central door locking) regulations would apparently require alot of work and, as you rightly say, there are potential dwell time issues as well. Fitting internal door handles would solve the accesssiblity problem but wouldn't sort the dwell times, and also slam-doors are probably the only thing about them that stops them seeming modern, so may as well pay a bit more for power-doors.

 

[matchmaker]

Ok, thanks. Sounds like I was right to guess at all other First ScotRail stock having retention toilets.

158's don't either I think.

 

[cf111]

158's don't either I think.

The Inverness based 158s do at least.

 

[Scotrail84]

158's don't either I think.

I think all of them do now. I might be wrong though

 

[SprinterJedi]

All Scotrail 158s have tanks...makes underframe inspections almost as much of a joy as the 52 end of a 156

 

[CockneySparrow]

It is stupid - no one cares which company is running the trains apart from the companies themselves. Chopping up bits of uniform is bizarre. Everywhere else it was just a new tie and badge until the rest of it appeared. I'm sure wearing a woolly hat inside out with the logo rubbing against your head feels lovely.

Seems to be the norm nowadays, GN staff still wear FCC branded clothing, some have just put tape over the FCC logo whilst others have repositioned their name badges

Whilst some like the other day was showing off the FCC logo for all to see, thing is at the end of the day the normal passenger isn't going to notice of give two hoots tbh

 

[jonnysr]

The ScotRail brand guidelines document shows an example of a ScotRail branded uniform; http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/uploaded_content/documents/public_register/C1792305.pdf so I thought this would be the next uniform, ie no mention of Abellio on it at all. It will be interesting to see if Abellio come out with this one in ScotRail colours, our one in their own colours.

I noticed yesterday also that "First" has been dropped by the auto announcements at Queen St and also on the destination board.

 

[Altnabreac]

The ScotRail brand guidelines document shows an example of a ScotRail branded uniform; http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/uploaded_content/documents/public_register/C1792305.pdf so I thought this would be the next uniform, ie no mention of Abellio on it at all. It will be interesting to see if Abellio come out with this one in ScotRail colours, our one in their own colours.

I noticed yesterday also that "First" has been dropped by the auto announcements at Queen St and also on the destination board.

Having heard what senior Abellio people's vision for the Franchise is I think it is very much to deliver Scotrail as the brand identity with Abellio in the background as the holding company.

There was a big emphasis on transforming Scotrail into a "National Railway for Scotland" rather than a regional railway in the UK.

I think we will see almost no mention of Abellio anywhere that is customer facing.

The big brand identity change may be seeing increasing elements of Network Rail Scotland branded as Scotrail as part of the joint board programme.

 

[sheeldz]

To follow up my post yesterday about the new posters, they are in 318s and 320s too. They appear to have the new slogan for ScotRail - "Your Ticket to Scotland".

 

[Rhydgaled]

Seems to be the norm nowadays, GN staff still wear FCC branded clothing, some have just put tape over the FCC logo whilst others have repositioned their name badges

Whilst some like the other day was showing off the FCC logo for all to see, thing is at the end of the day the normal passenger isn't going to notice of give two hoots tbh

If all staff have name badges, surely the solution is to have the company logo on the name badge only, not stitched into the uniform itself. Even easier to change a name badge than a sticker on the doors of a Saltire-liveried unit.

 

[jingsmonty]

Abellio didn't have uniforms in place because they wanted to consult with staff first on the subject of uniforms. Since staff have traditionally never been happy with uniforms, Abellio chose to postpone the introduction until they could gather feedback that could be used to stop further complaining.

Of course, now the staff are unhappy that they have to cut a few labels off, some saying they should be paid overtime for it, others claiming they shouldn't do it, and others saying that this is an outrage and the union won't stand for it.

Then there's the ones who took two minutes to do it like big boys and girls.

I have just dome mine, no problems!!
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Given the Scottish Government detail that the rolling stock is to be generically branded with only stickers for the operator which can be peeled off I'm surprised they haven't done the same with the uniforms and that the only branding on them is ScotRail rather than the operator.

It would certainly make things a lot easier in the long run.

I believe this is what will be happening with the new uniforms-Scotrail branding, rather than Abellio, makes sense. Some of the designs on show at the staff roadshows look quite smart! We've been told that they should be issued during the Autumn. I'd rather they took the time to give us a good uniform that's fit for purpose, rather than rush it through - whoever at First decided that white shirts were a good idea for on train staff had obviously never worked ontrain!!

Roll on 2018 and the HST Scotrail InterCity network!!
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Which why we should consigning these things to the scrap yard in my view, anyway clearly they going to happen as far as Scottish services are concerned, but it might make other TOC's think again about using them, I wonder if anybody will go for the alternate option of retaining the slam doors and door handle on the inside although I gather even this requires a significant change to the central locking system.

Out of interest do Abellio intend keeping the TGS or making some alternate train manager office in the buffet car perhaps?

I don't think they are fit for the scrap yard - Chiltern Trains have made it work and, apparently, their passengers love the Chiltern Mainline Mk3 LHCS trains - I know if I was travelling from Birmingham to London, I would far rather a Chiltern Mk3 than a Pendolino! The only alternative to HST's would have been some sort of Voyager/Meridian DEMU - I've not been in a Meridian, but the Voyagers are not a patch on a Mk3 for comfort-cramped seats that don't line up with the window, narrow coaches (on account of the tilt profile). Only other modern, powerful DMU I can think of are the Class 180 Adelantes, nice trains (have been on a Hull Trains Adelante a couple of times), but thHSTere are not enough units and they are all accounted for.

HST's are perfect for Scotrail-modern MTU engines, low leasing costs, loved by the public (the East Coast HST's are well used from Aberdeen and Inverness for Scottish journeys) and they will look good inside as well (as long as they don't have those terrible Grammer seats that the FGW HST have in Standard class).

Mk3 - best and most comfortable coach to run in the UK, ever (in my humble opinion...)!

 

[Steve childs]

I think we will get 20 years out of the refurbished mk3 coaches. The bigger problem is a lack of diesel DMU on the next franchise. (not the 10 Abellio one but the one after that) the 158 and 156 I think will be well spent by then and everyone will be fighting over 20 year old 170s by that time. I was in a discussion with someone the other day from a big company and he believes that the way Abellio are doing things is the way forward and DMUs are a thing of the past with the future getting busier and busier. I was told that Abellio HST refurbishment will include pneumatic doors on the MK3 coaches. I just wish they were coming in earlier. Roll on July 2018 when the first ones are due to roll out.
p.s Least we forget the great job first have done over the past 10 years.

 

[Bodiddly]

The big brand identity change may be seeing increasing elements of Network Rail Scotland branded as Scotrail as part of the joint board programme.

Or 'Network ScotRail'. Cue the fancy new branding!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think we will get 20 years out of the refurbished mk3 coaches. The bigger problem is a lack of diesel DMU on the next franchise. (not the 10 Abellio one but the one after that) the 158 and 156 I think will be well spent by then and everyone will be fighting over 20 year old 170s by that time. I was in a discussion with someone the other day from a big company and he believes that the way Abellio are doing things is the way forward and DMUs are a thing of the past with the future getting busier and busier. I was told that Abellio HST refurbishment will include pneumatic doors on the MK3 coaches. I just wish they were coming in earlier. Roll on July 2018 when the first ones are due to roll out.
p.s Least we forget the great job first have done over the past 10 years.

Yes, this is a genuine problem. What might be interesting is to see how successful the scenic trains initiative is with relatively standard rolling stock. If it proves to be very successful, it helps the business case for more specialised new rolling stock for the scenic routes. Some form of new rolling stock is going to be needed for these lines, and if the only lines needing it are ones that can be described as scenic, then it would certainly be worth considering. There's no point in building more Class 172-alikes if there's never going to be a need for suburban DMUs.

 

[Altnabreac]

I think we will get 20 years out of the refurbished mk3 coaches. The bigger problem is a lack of diesel DMU on the next franchise. (not the 10 Abellio one but the one after that) the 158 and 156 I think will be well spent by then and everyone will be fighting over 20 year old 170s by that time. I was in a discussion with someone the other day from a big company and he believes that the way Abellio are doing things is the way forward and DMUs are a thing of the past with the future getting busier and busier. I was told that Abellio HST refurbishment will include pneumatic doors on the MK3 coaches. I just wish they were coming in earlier. Roll on July 2018 when the first ones are due to roll out.
p.s Least we forget the great job first have done over the past 10 years.

I doubt it's going to be a huge problem.

In 2025 it's likely that electrification will have reached Shotts, EK, Barrhead, Kilmarnock, Maryhill, Fife Circle and Dundee.

So the only diesel stock required on the 2025-2035 franchise is:
HSTs for Glasgow / Edinbugh - Aberdeen / Inverness.
Scenic 158s for Far North, Kyle, WHL, Borders.
Either 158s or 156s for Stranraer, Dumfries.

158s will only be 35 years old in 2025 so could plausibly run for the whole franchise.
156s will be a little older but should still last with care and there should be sufficient 158s for all routes if required.
HSTs will definitely be reaching the end of their lives but if at that point electrification is heading towards Aberdeen in CP7 and Inverness in CP8 it would probably make sense to extend their life to 2030-35 or so.

That leaves the Scenic DMU replacement to the Franchise after that (2035-45) at which point it will be clear if lines like Borders, Dumfries and Girvan are to be electrified (my bet yes).

You then only have to procure the minimum scenic stock DMU requirement for Far North, Kyle, WHL and a Girvan - Stranraer shuttle.

 

[route:oxford]

Abellio didn't have uniforms in place because they wanted to consult with staff first on the subject of uniforms. Since staff have traditionally never been happy with uniforms, Abellio chose to postpone the introduction until they could gather feedback that could be used to stop further complaining.

Of course, now the staff are unhappy that they have to cut a few labels off, some saying they should be paid overtime for it, others claiming they shouldn't do it, and others saying that this is an outrage and the union won't stand for it.

Then there's the ones who took two minutes to do it like big boys and girls.

A very union-orientated friend of my called HMRC concerning the instructions to remove the branding from the uniform.

Apparently, for tax reasons, it is forbidden to remove corporate branding from company supplied uniform...

 

[Class 170101]

Even I think HSTs will be pushing their luck on regular mainline services post 2025ish. I guess it will depend upon their reliability and availability percentage requirement by then.

I reckon you might see Voyagers operating between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness / Aberdeen and between Inverness and Aberdeen displaced by wiring between Plymouth and Doncaster / Leeds via Bristol, Birmingham, Derby amd Sheffield by then.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That's absolutely right about the uniforms. The company branding stops it being classed as a benefit in kind for tax purposes.

In BR days any manager getting his unbranded suit issue would have to stick the value on his annual P11D return and be taxed accordingly.

Taxmen like to pick up on these things so my advice, as an ex union rep, is not to cut off or obscure any company branding before seeking advice from your union, who should be onto this already.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was going to take advantage of my Advance card for the last time today but ended up with 170478. (On the Edinburgh- Glasgow line). Ho hum the 1st upgrade was good while it lasted.

 

[jimm]

Even I think HSTs will be pushing their luck on regular mainline services post 2025ish. I guess it will depend upon their reliability and availability percentage requirement by then.

I reckon you might see Voyagers operating between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness / Aberdeen and between Inverness and Aberdeen displaced by wiring between Plymouth and Doncaster / Leeds via Bristol, Birmingham, Derby amd Sheffield by then.

Reworked HSTs should be fine until 2030 at least. I met some Chiltern engineers at the time the first overhauled Mk3s with power doors were going into service three years ago and they told me that on the basis of the general condition the coaches were found to be in when stripped back to the basic shell for the rebuild, and as a result of work done during the rebuild, that that they were good for another 20 years.

Allowing for a few more years and miles on the clock of the HSTs that will be heading north, that still gets you to the 2030s. As for mechanical reliability, the oldest of the MTUs on any HST has only been in use for 10 years.

If it was only feasible to get to 2025 with HSTs rebuilt at quite some expense, then it would be a no-brainer for FGW to be getting new bi-modes for the West Country and they would have been ordered long ago - and Abellio probably wouldn't have entertained the idea of overhauled HSTs for Scotrail in the first place.

 

[Class 170101]

I would question how the availability will stack up by then i diagram terms

I think currently EC require something like 12 from 14 on a daily basis. I would question whether the equivalant (I can't remember the exact numbers) will still be possible in practise after 2025 for Scotrail or whetehr more spare trains will be required to maintain the current expectation for number of diagrams.

 

[Altnabreac]

Even I think HSTs will be pushing their luck on regular mainline services post 2025ish. I guess it will depend upon their reliability and availability percentage requirement by then.

I reckon you might see Voyagers operating between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness / Aberdeen and between Inverness and Aberdeen displaced by wiring between Plymouth and Doncaster / Leeds via Bristol, Birmingham, Derby amd Sheffield by then.

Given the HSTs only arrive in late 2018 I'm assuming the return to make the refurbishment worthwhile would need to see them in service for at least 10 years (2028). If Aberdeen is due for electrification around 2030 it would seem unlikely you'd bring in an interim DMU solution just prior to electrification.

Perth - Inverness and Aberdeen - Inverness you might if electrification were another few years away. Once Aberdeen was wired you might cascade some Bi-Mode IEPs from East Coast to work the Inverness trains and move to all electric for London - Aberdeen.

 

[me123]

Perth - Inverness and Aberdeen - Inverness you might if electrification were another few years away. Once Aberdeen was wired you might cascade some Bi-Mode IEPs from East Coast to work the Inverness trains and move to all electric for London - Aberdeen.

IEP may be considered a bit luxuriant for Scottish internal routes, when I'm sure there'll be good options for them elsewhere. Given that Scotrail will continue to need diesel stock for many routes for the foreseeable future, I wonder if an order of new dual-mode trains could be considered for Scotland, that could run Inverness based services. Dual mode would be useful for Central Belt & Aberdeen - Inverness runs, whilst they could be used as diesels in the long term on the Far North and Kyle runs (and, perhaps, WHL too).

If HS2 does happen, I thought that the current plan was to withdraw direct London-Aberdeen services, with the traditional ECML running to Edinburgh once hourly with more stops (the theory being that you provide a better service to the smaller stations North of York, whilst not disadvantaging end-end travel, which will be attracted more to HS2. Aberdeen passengers are expected to transfer onto HS2).