The disgusting way rail staff treat passengers

[crewmeal]

I have just read the article in the Daily Mail about how a lady was humiliated and ill treated 'nazi' style by inspectors on the route from Liverpool Street to Colchester.

Have these vile evil people got no compassion for commuters who pay upwards of £4000 a year to travel. Is this because she was a woman I wonder? It beggars belief as to the depths these people will sink in order to humiliate people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562771&in_page_id=1770

My heart goes out to her and I hope she wins this appeal

 

[Nick279]

unbelievable, and we have put these people in charge of our railways, all privatisation has done is made us a complete laughing stock to the rest of the world, I`m disgusted.

 

[me123]

I understand why they gave the fine, but if there really was no more space left on the train, they shouldn't have. I also hope she wins her appeal; £69 because there's no more space is just unfair on her and the other couple, who hopefully are following her example.

It wouldn't have been as bad if he allowed them to pay the £12 upgrade due to the circumstances.

 

[Nick279]

I understand why they gave the fine, but if there really was no more space left on the train, they shouldn't have. I also hope she wins her appeal; £69 because there's no more space is just unfair on her and the other couple, who hopefully are following her example.

It wouldn't have been as bad if he allowed them to pay the £12 upgrade due to the circumstances.

why should they pay an extra £12, the rail companys dont have to provide a seat but they have to provide somewhere for the passenger to go, why didnt he suggest for them to sit on the roof, obviously on top of second class of course. Have these people had some sort of basic intelligence test before they were given a job on the railways. The whole issue is an absoulte joke, I really cant understand why regulators are allowing lunatics like this make a mockery of the network and we are to be encouraged to use public transport? is someone taking the P**s here??

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As an employee of the railway I must point out the Penalty fares schemes are quite strict and as such there are posters and leaflets at every station were the scheme is in operation.

Whilst I do not totally agree with the staff members actions, I must point out that the article implies she was in the first class compartment when there was room to stand in the aisle of the standard section. Whilst her standing there may have 'caused huge disruption', it is the only place she could legally stand.

Common sense should have told the staff to offer the upgrade or to ask her to move to the standard class section first, infact many of the RPIs I used to know would have done that.

Unfortunately there are too many 'little hitlers' on the railway who are just looking for opportunities to wield their warrant cards and give every other railwayman (or woman) a bad name.

 

[Nick279]

"Whilst her standing there may have 'caused huge disruption',"

it could have also caused issues of health and safety, what if some poor sod was having an heart attack and the passage was blocked the TOC could be taken for manslaughter by criminal neglegence, yes common sense needs to be applied here and also basic health and safety too it would appear, obviously the rules are only set out as guidlines and the railway companies should employ people who can think clearly and use initiative, not muppets who know no better than to take rules at face value and not in the spirit in which they were designed. I suppose at the end of the day its a case of you pay peanuts and you get monkeys, Just because you put posters and leaflets on public areas, doesnt mean thats actually the right information and that is of course presuming people can read English and can read at all in some cases, I`ve notice recently that many signs are appearing on stations saying that smoking is illegal in certain areas, both on the forcourts of certain stations and on open platforms, if we actually read the legislation in relatuion to the new smoking laws, you will find this is not actually so, its only against railway rules. and yes sadly it does reflect on all rail workers, a little like the guy at Carlisle who had an issue and the manager banned all rail enthusiasts, Fortunately we have rail employees like yourself , who take a professional and educated view of these things, although I often wonder how many?
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I don`t understand this powers of arrest business, unless you are making a citizens arrest, which all of us can do of course, only the police have powers beyond that?

 

[Metroland]

It's going to be so interesting when some of you people that aspire to work on the railways start work. Of course there are a minority of staff that treat passengers badly, nobody condones it. But if one passenger complains to a tabloid paper it doesn't mean all staff are useless, which is what is often implied, or worse than anywhere else. Moreover, we don't have all the facts of this story, and note that it is going through an independent complaints service which hasn't ruled.

'unbelievable, and we have put these people in charge of our railways, all privatisation has done is made us a complete laughing stock to the rest of the world, I`m disgusted.'

Nothing like a Daily mail generated gross generalisation eh? Bit like all train enthusiats take numbers and are sad.

 

[Nick279]

"Nothing like a Daily mail generated gross generalisation eh? Bit like all train enthusiats take numbers and are sad."

sadly these are not isolated cases however, but yes, you dont get much sadder that a trainspotter, eeerr just like me! seriously though, thiose of use who used the railways regulaly know what goes on, regardless of any distortion through the media, (never let the truth stand in the way of a good story and all that), yes I used to be a journalist, but theres no smoke without fire.

 

[Metroland]

Used to be a journalist? How interesting.

Do you also condone overstating the case that rail is unsafe, thereby driving up costs, saddling tax payers with billions of costs, driving them onto roads which are less safe?

Do you condone, after Ladbroke grove and other accidents members of the public attacking (physically and verbally) rail staff because of inflated tabloid headlines?

Do you condone bullying in schools and in general against anyone that is interested that railway because of gross generalisation and ignorance, often portrayed by the media?

Do you condone the harrasing of people to sell newspapers, the media distorting the truth or just plain getting the story wrong?

When are the media going to start telling the truth that rail is more reliable than other forms of transport?

The railways carry 3 million people are day on National Rail alone. If one person has an unfortunate incident, it doesn't mean it's common.

I find your old profession on the whole irresponsible and disgusting and you are the real profiteers often selling copy on the back of distortion of the truth.

 

[O L Leigh]

Firstly, this the Daily Mail (or Hate Mail, as I prefer to call it). Secondly, this is just the one side of the story as related to the said journal by a disgruntled punter with an axe to grind. These two things are not going to make for the most balanced or factually accurate piece of journalism. We don't know precisely what transpired on that train, but it strikes me that if two "grippers" were able to walk through the train doing a ticket check, there must have been space elsewhere in the train for her to be.

Thirdly, having a ticket entitles you to a journey and nothing more. You are not guaranteed a seat or even a space to stand. Quite frankly, this person could have waited for another train if this particular one had been rammed to capacity.

Yet more non-news. How disappointing.

 

[Metroland]

Well there are a number of people who think that if there are no standard seats this automatically makes them entitled to a first class seat. We all know that goes on.

Just for everyone's information, I've never said the railway shouldn't be criticised, but for Lord's sake lets keep it in context.

People complain they can't get a seat because there isn't enough trains, and yet the same people complain that taxes are to high or we shouldn't be investing in or use public transport because it's useless - as concluded from articles in papers like the Daily Mail. Go figure.

I advise people just to stand back a little sometimes, and try and grasp the big picture. Nobody is saying things couldn't be done better, but reactionary headlines and gross generalisation is neither intelligent nor helpful. Often things are not quite as simple as it appears.

 

[Up Carriage Liner]

Anything that the Daily Mail prints should be treated with suspicion. In the circles I move in it is known as the Daily Forger.

 

[Nick279]

Used to be a journalist? How interesting.
yes it can be at times, Do you also condone overstating the case that rail is unsafe, thereby driving up costs, saddling tax payers with billions of costs, driving them onto roads which are less safe?

no not at all, I consider railways one of our safest modes of transport, providing they are not pursely run for profit only at the expense of safety, railways are certainly more safer than roads
Do you condone, after Ladbroke grove and other accidents members of the public attacking (physically and verbally) rail staff because of inflated tabloid headlines?

no definately not, this is unacceptable, rail staff are there to do a job like anyone else, the way they are managed at times can be open to interpretation, but that applies to all public limelight industries of course
Do you condone bullying in schools and in general against anyone that is interested that railway because of gross generalisation and ignorance, often portrayed by the media?

I think you maybe getting me confused with a tabloid jounalist? I was in a specialist field. but to answer your question, no certainly not.
Do you condone the harrasing of people to sell newspapers, the media distorting the truth or just plain getting the story wrong?

it all depends on who pays the piper, I believe in freedom of the press, not the masking of, thak goodness we still live in a freee democracy although sometimes I feel its more an idealism that a state of actualism.
When are the media going to start telling the truth that rail is more reliable than other forms of transport?

which parties media are you refering too? those that have or those that dont have?
The railways carry 3 million people are day on National Rail alone. If one person has an unfortunate incident, it doesn't mean it's common.

sadly its not just one person though is it?, by the same rule of course if one person is killed by neglegence out of the millions that travel, is this acceptable?
I find your old profession on the whole irresponsible and disgusting and you are the real profiteers often selling copy on the back of distortion of the truth.

I think you may need to consider what branch of the profession I was in before you make assumptions my friend. I think you may find we are batting for the same side
good debate though, thanks.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....obviously the rules are only set out as guidlines and the railway companies should employ people who can think clearly and use initiative, not muppets who know no better than to take rules at face value and not in the spirit in which they were designed. I suppose at the end of the day its a case of you pay peanuts and you get monkeys,....

The staff who are generally recognised as 'little hitlers' are actually very aware of the rules and how to interpret them and as such I think the monkeys comment is out of order, and disrespectful towards other rail workers.

.... Just because you put posters and leaflets on public areas, doesnt mean thats actually the right information and that is of course presuming people can read English and can read at all in some cases, I`ve notice recently that many signs are appearing on stations saying that smoking is illegal in certain areas, both on the forcourts of certain stations and on open platforms, if we actually read the legislation in relatuion to the new smoking laws, you will find this is not actually so, its only against railway rules....

Under the Penalty fares scheme, the CURRENT rules MUST be displayed in a prominent place for all who enter the Penalty fares area. Leaflets are provided for those who wish to take a copy away with them and are supposed to be carried by all RPI staff. If they are not the current rules you can appeal against the PF, although it may not be successful. It is presumed that most people in England can read english or are accompanied by someone who can, but then common sense should prevail in such cases where they can't.

To define the smoking laws in relation to the railway:

The law forbids smoking in any area which is more than 50% enclosed and has a roof. This includes station buildings and shelters.

Railway byelaw 3 states that smoking is not permitted in any area where a 'no smoking' notice is provided. An authourised person can then ask you to leave or use reasonable force to have you removed from railway property.

I don`t understand this powers of arrest business, unless you are making a citizens arrest, which all of us can do of course, only the police have powers beyond that?

RPIs can't arrest you any more than you could arrest me, they have a warrant card so that they can caution you. If you supply false details after being cautioned, it is a prosecutable offence.

 

[Nick279]

Firstly, this the Daily Mail (or Hate Mail, as I prefer to call it). Secondly, this is just the one side of the story as related to the said journal by a disgruntled punter with an axe to grind. These two things are not going to make for the most balanced or factually accurate piece of journalism. We don't know precisely what transpired on that train, but it strikes me that if two "grippers" were able to walk through the train doing a ticket check, there must have been space elsewhere in the train for her to be.

Thirdly, having a ticket entitles you to a journey and nothing more. You are not guaranteed a seat or even a space to stand. Quite frankly, this person could have waited for another train if this particular one had been rammed to capacity.

Yet more non-news. How disappointing.

I think you will find the Daily Mail is a few shades too many to the left and of course I think we all realise they are, like the railways, in the buisiness of making money, there is however no smoke with out fire and I suspect this story is based on some truth, all we can do is take the report on face value and see what transpires from this, we cant speculate at this stage , but I`m also sure those would have an interest in the railways and use them often enough are not that nieve as to not know what really goes on. It is of course possible that this person could not wait for another train, you dont know this persons circumstances, nor the mentl attitude of the inspectors or the customer at the time? and the train could have been rammed to capacity after the customer (strange word that) boarded the train, we cant of course believe everything we read in the tabloiids, or broadsheets for that matter, we can however read between the lines and I cant honestly believe this is a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other. We shall see.

 

[Mojo]

Firstly, this article is a little misleading, the customer being given a "£69 fine." I am not trying to be pedantic here, but a fine is something issued by a court. From what I can tell, the customer was given a £69 Penalty Fare.

Personally, I disagree with the whole system of Penalty Fares. It does not require any intention to avoid paying the fare, meaning it is very easy to issue a Penalty for people who do not have a ticket, but who may show intention to pay. If someone genuinely wanted to avoid paying - send them to the Magistrates and let them decide. They can be given a much stiffer punishment if necessary, or completely let off if they showed intention.

However, if a train is so busy that there is nowhere else to comfortably stand, then the person should have been entitled to stand where she did. The Conditions of Carnage [sic] also state something about you being entitled to travel in First Class with permission from on-train staff.

The problem with doing such a job is you have to decide who to belive and who to not. The whole principle of law in England & Wales is that it is better to let 10 people go free than to convict one innocent man.

 

[Metroland]

I think you may need to consider what branch of the profession I was in before you make assumptions my friend. I think you may find we are batting for the same side
good debate though, thanks.

Well there are good journalists and bad ones as we all know, if you worked for the specialist press you are unlikely to be writing sensationalists articles, So I apologise if I implied this.

I believe in a free press as well, but with it, this must carry responsibility.

All too often the (tabloid) press have engaged in witch hunts and blowing things out of proportion to sell copy. This skews public debate, and actually erodes intelligent discussion and freedom of expression - because we're all in the consensus trance that X must be bad (or good) because the newspapers say it is.

This story looks suspiciously like someone with an axe to grind, the reason? An independent body which looks after complaints hasn't ruled. Therefore, without all the facts it is a biased and sensationalist piece of journalism.

Bad customer service happens everywhere, and when it happens its regrettable. But you and I both know, some industries these things hit the headlines rather more than others.

Please don't insult our intelligence to say journalists do it for the good of mankind, they do it because it sells papers. If the railways were so bad, they wouldn't be carrying record numbers of passengers. And the correct procedure for poor staff behaviour is to make a complaint and take it through the official bodies who look at both sides of the story, rather than trying to whip up public feeling, often against staff that do a good job in the face of much adversity.

 

[Nick279]

Well there are a number of people who think that if there are no standard seats this automatically makes them entitled to a first class seat. We all know that goes on.

I`m interested, do you feel its right for an old person, who may have fought for this country, to stand outside a first class compartment full of empty seats, he cant find a second class seat because they are all full, he suffers health issues and finds it difficult to stand for long periods, lets say hes your grandad, he would gladly pay the extra, but his pension wont allow it, hes spend all his money on the reduced train fare to see some of his freind, possibly for the last time. Can we really afford to have first class passengers in this day and age when we cant even find seats for normal paying passengers?


Just for everyone's information, I've never said the railway shouldn't be criticised, but for Lord's sake lets keep it in context.

[B]good ideal, yes lets, lets also try to be realistic and compassionate

People complain they can't get a seat because there isn't enough trains, and yet the same people complain that taxes are to high or we shouldn't be investing in or use public transport because it's useless - as concluded from articles in papers like the Daily Mail. Go figure.

[B]I think many like us complain about far too much investment in road poilicy, these may not be the same people of course

I advise people just to stand back a little sometimes, and try and grasp the big picture. Nobody is saying things couldn't be done better, but reactionary headlines and gross generalisation is neither intelligent nor helpful. Often things are not quite as simple as it appears.

its a human trait though something we need to stand back and think about

 

[Metroland]

I`m interested, do you feel its right for an old person, who may have fought for this country, to stand outside a first class compartment full of empty seats, he cant find a second class seat because they are all full, he suffers health issues and finds it difficult to stand for long periods

I think common sense should be employed. If you have health issues you should be booking a seat, where you can't book ahead and find a seat, you should state this to a member of staff who should deal with that circumstance with the merit it deserves. I think members of the public should also be giving up seats for people like that, I know I would and have.

 

[Nick279]

Well there are good journalists and bad ones as we all know, if you worked for the specialist press you are unlikely to be writing sensationalists articles, So I apologise if I implied this.

no please no apology neccessary friend, an enjoyable debate, nothjing more

I believe in a free press as well, but with it, this must carry responsibility.

yes it does of course and I entirely agree
All too often the (tabloid) press have engaged in witch hunts and blowing things out of proportion to sell copy. This skews public debate, and actually erodes intelligent discussion and freedom of expression - because we're all in the consensus trance that X must be bad (or good) because the newspapers say it is.

yes this sort of thing sadly goes on far too often and public transport certainly has its share of witch hunting
This story looks suspiciously like someone with an axe to grind, the reason? It independent body which looks after complaints hasn't ruled. Therefore, without all the facts it is a biased and sensationalist piece of journalism.

I`m not convinced although it could be possible, so fair comment
Bad customer service happens everywhere, and when it happens its regrettable. But you and I both know, some industries these things hit the headlines rather more than others.

yes customer service or the lack of it appears to be a major issue these days, I think its derivity is from the way this society is economically stratagised, even good manners have taken a back seat, especially on the roads. Karl Marx warned us about this sortof thing years ago, but would we listen:cry:

Please don't insult our intelligence to say journalists do it for the good of mankind, they do it because it sells papers. If the railways were so bad, they wouldn't be carrying record numbers of passengers. And the correct procedure for poor staff behaviour is to make a complaint and take it through the official bodies who look at both sides of the story, rather than trying to whip up public feeling, often against staff that do a good job in the face of much adversity.

I didnt say that?, surely nobody does anything for the good of mankind, we do everything for ourselves
I know I've been on the receiving end of this crap all my life. I don't work for the railways any more, but I can tell you that if I delayed anything by a couple of mins I'd lay in bed unable to sleep. Not because of fear of getting in trouble, because actually I like to do a good job. And I wasn't alone.

yes thats the way things are now sadly, the trouble is its contagious and in the end everyone give up on quality, I know I have it in my present job, all, targeted and financially orientated, no concern for qulity any more unless they have too, a great shame, i`1m glad my time is nearly over, I wouldnt fancy another 50 years or so years living in England (are we still allowed to call it that) the way I see things going.

 

[Mojo]

They are about to discuss this on Jeremy Vine's show on Radio 2, for anyone who is still about. It will also be avaliable on "Listen again" later today.

 

[Nick279]

I think common sense should be employed. If you have health issues you should be booking a seat, where you can't book ahead and find a seat, you should state this to a member of staff who should deal with that circumstance with the merit it deserves. I think members of the public should also be giving up seats for people like that, I know I would and have.

yes I agree of course, sadly manners appear to be a dying breed too
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They are about to discuss this on Jeremy Vine's show on Radio 2, for anyone who is still about. It will also be avaliable on "Listen again" later today.

thats should be enlightening, thanks

 

[Metroland]

I didnt say that?, surely nobody does anything for the good of mankind, we do everything for ourselves.

I don't agree, at all. Human beings have imagination and empathy, at least the good ones do. That's where our morals come from. Perhaps less people do things for other people, I don't know, but surely it's better to set an example if we are to live in a nice world where people work together rather than trying to destroy each other? Idealist it may be, but the other option makes us no better than unintelligent animals.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think you will find the Daily Mail is a few shades too many to the left and of course I think we all realise they are, like the railways, in the buisiness of making money, there is however no smoke with out fire and I suspect this story is based on some truth, all we can do is take the report on face value and see what transpires from this, we cant speculate at this stage , but I`m also sure those would have an interest in the railways and use them often enough are not that nieve as to not know what really goes on. It is of course possible that this person could not wait for another train, you dont know this persons circumstances, nor the mentl attitude of the inspectors or the customer at the time? and the train could have been rammed to capacity after the customer (strange word that) boarded the train, we cant of course believe everything we read in the tabloiids, or broadsheets for that matter, we can however read between the lines and I cant honestly believe this is a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other. We shall see.

Fair points.

My moniker for the Mail has more to do with my perception of it's negative coverage about almost everything rather than suggesting any right-wing leanings. They never seem to be "for" anything much; always "against".

The story at face value is that one punter had a bad experience with some "grippers" and is feeling disgruntled. I admit that her experience may not necessarily be isolated, but nor should it be extrapolated out to suggest that this type of behaviour is typical. Personally I'd love to hear the "grippers" side of the tale, as I've never seen one lose it without some form of extreme provocation.

My own experience of punters in the peak, both as a commuter and as rail staff, is that they appear to stop thinking. While I have seen some evidence of smart thinking, the general pattern of behaviour is a head-down charge at the doors. They just see "their" train and no other will do. The London-Colchester route is very busy with any number of services making that particular stop, so there is no shortage of choice. My own particular trick was not to jump on the train that is about to leave at any moment but to wait until the next service is called.

Perhaps our beloved season ticket holders, upon whose hard-earned cash garnered by the sweat of their brows the railway largely depends, should be asking for a copy of the Conditions of Carriage each time they renew so that they know precisely what the terms are of the contract into which they are entering.

O L Leigh

 

[Nick279]

I don't agree, at all. Human beings have imagination and empathy, at least the good ones do. That's where our morals come from. Perhaps less people do things for other people, I don't know, but surely it's better to set an example if we are to live in a nice world where people work together rather than trying to destroy each other? Idealist it may be, but the other option makes us no better than unintelligent animals.

sorry I should had posted a smilie, I wasnt being serious, I`m an idealist too, there is a lot of good out there which goes unnoticed, the bad things we notice.

 

[Metroland]

I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think the railway is especially good at weeding out the bad apples sometimes, I know of one place where the staff boasted they didn't give a toss, it was part of the culture to care as little as possible!There's also some very ineffective managers about who barely know how to get on a train, let alone run a railway.

I don't especially think that is just down to the railways, that's UK wide, we do have a cultural problem of people grabbing what they can for themselves, building little empires and generally not giving a toss.

I do, strongly believe this is a minority in that industry for most people its 'in the blood'. REAL railwaymen and REAL enthusiasts support the railway, it goes beyond just taking home a wage or taking train numbers (if they do at all). Which is why I'm so keen to get both sides of the story out.

 

[Nick279]

"Perhaps our beloved season ticket holders, upon whose hard-earned cash garnered by the sweat of their brows the railway largely depends, should be asking for a copy of the Conditions of Carriage each time they renew so that they know precisely what the terms are of the contract into which they are entering."

The problem is though that many contracts are not always formulated in the same spirit and good will as the customer would expect, some contracts are written in small print, or confusing and esoteric jargon which the untrained customer would need special training to understand, they are also designed to cover ones back of course, fortunatley rail conditions of travel and regulaltions are usually much more simplistic thanks to Government intervention, but I have had issues with rail servants who appeared to be trying to enforce regulations which didnt actually exist, however thats another story, but the general public expects a contract to be based on whats fare and reasonable(what fools), obviously you can still be sold a ticket regardless of weither a space exists to fit into or not.

In fairness to professional rail servants, of whom there are many and many are my close friends by the way, these guys take an incredible amount of crap working with the general public and its understandable that some will become desensitised to customers needs, working with the public can be a thankless task of course, so we should always make allowances within reason.
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"I do, strongly believe this is a minority in that industry for most people its 'in teh blood'. REAL railwaymen and REAL enthusiasts support the railway, it goes beyond just taking home a wage or taking train numbers."

yes very well put, its passion of course and love for the railways, more like a way of life. I really get infuriated when I see our railways being ran down and taking second place to road transport, I was very fortunate to be born in an age when the railways ruled, albeit they were being run down at the time.

 

[The 158 Man]

That's outrageous. :roll: If I was going to be arrested I'd've made it worth their while and lamped them one!

It just shows you what a state this "country" is in.................

 

[Nick279]

I would have quite happily allowed them to arressment me, it the press report is correct

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem is though that many contracts are not always formulated in the same spirit and good will as the customer would expect, some contracts are written in small print, or confusing and esoteric jargon which the untrained customer would need special training to understand, they are also designed to cover ones back of course, fortunatley rail conditions of travel and regulaltions are usually much more simplistic thanks to Government intervention, but I have had issues with rail servants who appeared to be trying to enforce regulations which didnt actually exist, however thats another story, but the general public expects a contract to be based on whats fare and reasonable(what fools), obviously you can still be sold a ticket regardless of weither a space exists to fit into or not.

Quite so.

However, to travel with a copy of the Conditions of Carriage about one's person and knowing one's rights and responsibilities under the terms of the contract is to be tooled up to repell the worst excesses of the overly officious railway representative.

The sale of a ticket irrespective of available space is fair, as that journey could be taken at any time during the ticket's period of validity. The chances of not being able to complete the journey at all within that timescale due to there being absolutely no room whatsoever is vanishingly small. The punter may not consider it fair if they have been unable to complete their journey within what they consider to be a reasonable timescale due to overcrowding, but that doesn't enter into it. Their ticket is still "good" and the contract into which they have entered only stipulates that the railway will get you there without saying when or how.

O L Leigh