Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[yorksrob]

The costs of building it would be wrapped into track access charges, but assuming it was put on the Network Rail financing, it effectively goes on ALL track access charges nationwide.

Which, to be fair, already happens for a lot of very expensive schemes.

At least in this case, the charges paid by the Regional Railway would go towards the enhancement of the Regional Railway.

 

[21C101]

Exclusive - report of first train across reopened Meldon Viaduct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJgPq8Lc7Ns

 

[The Ham]

Exclusive - report of first train across reopened Meldon Viaduct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJgPq8Lc7Ns

Given that shows it can cope with two loco's at the same time I would have thought that there'll be no problem with DMU's or HST's. They may have to remove the branch where the second loco went along.

 

[The Ham]

Looks like FGW have opted for faster journey times without the expense or disruption of the DAL:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/03/23-dft-announces-great-western-deal.html

The AT300 trains will use higher engine power to cope with gradients in Devon and Cornwall. They will run as electric trains between London and Newbury, and are equipped with bigger fuel tanks for the long distance journeys to Plymouth and Penzance. Journey times would be reduced by five minutes between London and Exeter, six minutes to Plymouth and 14 minutes to Penzance.

On a potential plus side for Torbay most of the 29 units potentially being ordered are 5 coach versions so there's at least the potential for more direct trains to London by splitting services.

 

[MarkyT]

Looks like FGW have opted for faster journey times without the expense or disruption of the DAL:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/03/23-dft-announces-great-western-deal.html

New bi-mode trains just as compatible with a new electrified high speed cut off from Exeter to Newton Abbot as existing trains if not more so.

On a potential plus side for Torbay most of the 29 units potentially being ordered are 5 coach versions so there's at least the potential for more direct trains to London by splitting services.

I don't know how you deduce that from the confusing numbers in the Railnews article.

Edit:

The 369 vehicles mentioned are the already committed 21x9car electrics + 36x5car bimodes.
No mention of total number of additional vehicles in the 29 'extra' units proposed so proportion of 5 to 9 cars impossible to deduce, unless you have another source.

 

[21C101]

Looks like FGW have opted for faster journey times without the expense or disruption of the DAL:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/03/23-dft-announces-great-western-deal.html

Since the Plymouth via Okehampton services if the line reopens would go to Waterloo and be operated by SWT thats not really surprising.

On a potential plus side for Torbay most of the 29 units potentially being ordered are 5 coach versions so there's at least the potential for more direct trains to London by splitting services.

I would expect 10 would be needed to Plymouth with 5 dropped there although it should be feasible to detach 5 from London to Bristol fasts offpeak and run them to Paignton.

With 5 car trains it might prove feasible to run Newquay style through trains to Minehead, Kingswear and Barnstaple on Summer Saturdays

 

[The Ham]

New bi-mode trains just as compatible with a new electrified high speed cut off from Exeter to Newton Abbot as existing trains if not more so.



I don't know how you deduce that from the confusing numbers in the Railnews article.

Edit:

The 369 vehicles mentioned are the already committed 21x9car electrics + 36x5car bimodes.
No mention of total number of additional vehicles in the 29 'extra' units proposed so proportion of 5 to 9 cars impossible to deduce, unless you have another source.

Sorry, I didn't notice no reference to the numbers of types of units in that articular. I do, however, have another source for the number of units:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...-centre-of-great-western-franchise-extension/

Subject to final approval from the DfT, First Group has pledged to replace Intercity 125 units currently operating from London Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance with 29 new bi-mode AT300 units.

Hitachi has said the new trains, which consist of seven nine-car and 22 five-car vehicles, will be “closely related” to the Class 800 bi-mode being built for the Great Western and East Coast main lines. The new units will feature larger fuel tanks and up-rated power packs to allow it to negotiate the steeper gradients.

 

[MarkyT]

I would expect 10 would be needed to Plymouth with 5 dropped there although it should be feasible to detach 5 from London to Bristol fasts offpeak and run them to Paignton. With 5 car trains it might prove feasible to run Newquay style through trains to Minehead, Kingswear and Barnstaple on Summer Saturdays

Assuming they can get up the hills, you could also split a 2x5car Penzance / Paignton train every other hour at Newton Abbot, whilst alternate hours were fulfilled by a 9-car Plymouth terminating there. You'd still then have 9 or ten cars on all expresses as far as Exeter and Newton Abbot.

 

[The Ham]

I understand that DAL can still happen with the new units, my point was that the smaller of the improvements achieved by the DAL will be achieved by rolling stock changes (which I had pointed out was possible a few times through this thread).

 

[34104]

Very quiet on this front just recently but the Campaign for Rural England are in favour of the Okehampton route;


http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/New...rth-Plymouth/story-26712958-detail/story.html

Not sure how much clout or influence CFRE have but certainly wouldn't have thought their support could do any harm.

 

[Rapidash]

There was a piece on this on BBC Spotlight last night. NR view was the strengthening of the wall will cost a few hundred million quid. but inland routes will cost billions.

Didnt sound like they were particularly eager to go to Okehampton.

 

[yorksrob]

There was a piece on this on BBC Spotlight last night. NR view was the strengthening of the wall will cost a few hundred million quid. but inland routes will cost billions.

Didnt sound like they were particularly eager to go to Okehampton.

From a purely technical view of getting trains between Plymouth and Exeter, strengthening the existing line is a no-brainer. That would still leave a relatively isolated route at risk of closures, so there is still a benefit from having an alternative (as illustrated elsewhere in the country such as London - Exeter).

What I expect this study is trying to do (hoping to have a read tonight) is to flesh out some of the additional benefits along the Okehampton route, something that hasn't been in NR's remit.

Something long overdue IMO.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Am I right in suspecting that too many people think the Okehampton route would necessarily have to be served by SWT as an extension of their Waterloo service to be of any use? When in fact a local FGW service would be fine.

Could this perhaps be colouring NR's opinion on the matter?

 

[HowardGWR]

Very quiet on this front just recently but the Campaign for Rural England are in favour of the Okehampton route;


http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/New...rth-Plymouth/story-26712958-detail/story.html

Not sure how much clout or influence CFRE have but certainly wouldn't have thought their support could do any harm.

Ralph Smyth (pronounced Rafe Smith) is its national organiser so it will have been carefully researched. Good reception from MPs and LEP, - it looks promising.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Am I right in suspecting that too many people think the Okehampton route would necessarily have to be served by SWT as an extension of their Waterloo service to be of any use? When in fact a local FGW service would be fine.

Could this perhaps be colouring NR's opinion on the matter?

I don't see who the franchisee would be has any relevance TBH.

 

[yorksrob]

Am I right in suspecting that too many people think the Okehampton route would necessarily have to be served by SWT as an extension of their Waterloo service to be of any use? When in fact a local FGW service would be fine.

Could this perhaps be colouring NR's opinion on the matter?

I doubt it. Certainly I think it would be considered an option, but by no means the only one.

 

[34104]

There was a piece on this on BBC Spotlight last night. NR view was the strengthening of the wall will cost a few hundred million quid. but inland routes will cost billions.

Didnt sound like they were particularly eager to go to Okehampton.

Somebody on another forum made the interesting point that the Spotlight programme may have been referring specifically to the DAL route as the inland option rather than Okehampton. That would certainly figure, because as I recall the costing for Okehampton in the study made awhile back by NR came to £850m with a 66% overrun inbuilt, which does not amount to "billions". Can't remember the cost of the DAL but fairly sure it was more expensive than Okehampton.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Somebody on another forum made the interesting point that the Spotlight programme may have been referring specifically to the DAL route as the inland option rather than Okehampton. That would certainly figure, because as I recall the costing for Okehampton in the study made awhile back by NR came to £850m with a 66% overrun inbuilt, which does not amount to "billions". Can't remember the cost of the DAL but fairly sure it was more expensive than Okehampton.

Indeed, as you say £850m to reopen the LSW Route, and £1.49-3bn. for the various DAL options from what I've just read, having visited Okehampton recently one two people there have mentioned the possibility of some news about the route in July, if so I hope it's positive but I guess we'll just have to wait and see..

 

[yorksrob]

The link to the rather excellent and timely report can be found here:

http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/transport/rail/item/3986-rural-reconnections

The executive summary recognises:

the need for the investment case to take account of
wider economic effects. Creating a second route to connect Cornwall and
Plymouth with the rest of the national rail network needs to be assessed in
terms of the impact on the wider economy, rather than simply the financial
costs to the rail sector. The impact of the rail service will be to strengthen
demand – including for housing – in Tavistock and Okehampton. Project
appraisal methodologies need to reflect this type of effect – and recognise
that the alternative – a near totally car-based way of life and dispersed
development patterns - is a less sustainable alternative

The key conclusions of the report are:

 The consensus of politicians, businesses, and the general public is
that the rail line would bring significant benefits to the towns of
Tavistock and Okehampton and to the surrounding rural areas.
 The economic case for creating a long-distance diversionary route can
be strengthened by providing a new local rail service.
 Such a service could mitigate some of the problems faced by remote
rural areas in Devon and North Cornwall, and will strengthen
Tavistock and Okehampton, where additional housing is already
planned and where sustainability objectives are best met through
coordinating planned development with rail reinstatement.
 These benefits depend on services being properly integrated into the
existing public transport network, such as through integrated
ticketing and timetabling.
 A normal transport economic appraisal assumption of unchanged land
use in the do something/do nothing cases is inappropriate.

A very sensible report that many politicians in the South West could do with reading.

 

[47802]

And does it compare the benefit locally of simply reintroducing an Exeter - Okehampton Service, and reopening the line to Tavistock from the Plymouth end, for a fraction of the cost of reopening the whole route.

The old chestnut of trying to get Okehampton reopened on the back of the making it the alternate route to Plymouth and Cornwall.

 

[yorksrob]

And does it compare the benefit locally of simply reintroducing an Exeter - Okehampton Service, and reopening the line to Tavistock from the Plymouth end, for a fraction of the cost of reopening the whole route.

The old chestnut of trying to get Okehampton reopened on the back of the making it the alternate route to Plymouth and Cornwall.

One of the aspects that the report does mention is the importance of Plymouth as an economic
and educational centre, and it makes clear this case in respect of Okehampton and North Devon, so it follows that the potential benefits of better public transport for people wishing to engage in these sectors wouldn't be realised with just branch line services at either end.

 

[The Ham]

And does it compare the benefit locally of simply reintroducing an Exeter - Okehampton Service, and reopening the line to Tavistock from the Plymouth end, for a fraction of the cost of reopening the whole route.

The old chestnut of trying to get Okehampton reopened on the back of the making it the alternate route to Plymouth and Cornwall.

That at face value makes sense, however the advantage of the through route is that travel between Okehampton/Plymouth can happen likewise Tavistock/Exeter.

Although such a market is unlikely to be very big; by the time you have run a service from Exeter to Okehampton and run a service from Plymouth to Tavistock then in terms of TOC costs it is likely to be very similar (i.e. little or no extra staff time and little or no extra rolling stock usage which are some of the bigger cost items) to those for running a service all the way through.

 

[Busaholic]

That at face value makes sense, however the advantage of the through route is that travel between Okehampton/Plymouth can happen likewise Tavistock/Exeter.

Although such a market is unlikely to be very big; by the time you have run a service from Exeter to Okehampton and run a service from Plymouth to Tavistock then in terms of TOC costs it is likely to be very similar (i.e. little or no extra staff time and little or no extra rolling stock usage which are some of the bigger cost items) to those for running a service all the way through.

Almost nowhere in these discussions are the following factors mentioned: East/
North East Cornwall and West/North West Devon are going to have to take a share of desperately-needed housebuilding, which will see relatively sparse populations grow greater in percentage terms than in many other rural areas.
Add to this the totally inadequate road between Okehampton and Plymouth via Tavistock which in many places cannot be improved without enormous cost and environmental objections and reasons other than purely as a diversionary route when/if Dawlish is under water are presented.
The extension from Bere Alston to Tavistock is already being worked on, so it's only Tavistock to Okehampton that is a stumbling block.
Tavistock to Plymouth, with the provision of a suitably large car park at the former, could form the basis of a good park-and-ride scheme similar to that at Lelant Saltings on the St Ives branch, and Okehampton could provide a good bus/train interchange for ramblers and others wishing to explore a wider area on day and longer trips.

 

[MarkRedon]

The interim report of the Peninsula Rail Task Force has been published at: http://peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk/

This document gives very limited prominence to the Okehampton route and does not include it in its provisional long-term plan.

I have commented on their website and suggest that other people who, like me, value resilience and long-term survival over journey-time improvements: should respond to their call for feedback. Even if you disagree with me: if you have a well reasoned argument, put it in that forum!

 

[yorksrob]

The interim report of the Peninsula Rail Task Force has been published at: http://peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk/

This document gives very limited prominence to the Okehampton route and does not include it in its provisional long-term plan.

I have commented on their website and suggest that other people who, like me, value resilience and long-term survival over journey-time improvements: should respond to their call for feedback. Even if you disagree with me: if you have a well reasoned argument, put it in that forum!

Thanks for the heads up.

I shall read through it and comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking through it, it seems to pay lip service to the resilience of the Exeter - Plymouth section, but as you mention, most seems to be electrification and speed improvements.

I might express disappointment that greater prominence hasn't been given to the additional route.

 

[MarkRedon]

I really do encourage you to respond on their website.

For me, the arguments are straightforward. The Okehampton route will cost about 25% of the cost of a tunnelled route, delivers more resilience, connects North Devon and indirectly North Cornwall and can be built "quickly" before any other interventions which are eventually decided upon. You can reopen Okehampton and then build an expensive tunnel. Any decision to build an expensive tunnel in the "near" future will kick Okehampton into the very very long grass.

The disadvantages of the Okehampton route are wrong-facing junctions in both Exeter and Plymouth. Can anyone on this forum suggest ways in which that particular objection can be overcome?

 

[HowardGWR]

The disadvantages of the Okehampton route are wrong-facing junctions in both Exeter and Plymouth. Can anyone on this forum suggest ways in which that particular objection can be overcome?

Have driving positions at both ends of the train?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I really do encourage you to respond on their website.



The disadvantages of the Okehampton route are wrong-facing junctions in both Exeter and Plymouth. Can anyone on this forum suggest ways in which that particular objection can be overcome?

But is that such a disadvantage anyway now that nearly all services are operated by units?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes indeed. A short reversal really is nothing to worry about with modern fixed formation stock, particularly in the context of avoiding major disruption/bustitution etc. InterCity service trains sometimes reverse at Birmingham New Street mid-journey for example.

 

[MarkRedon]

Thank you very much to all of HowardGWR, Ash Bridge, yorksrob. You are of course correct and you put forward a simple solution which I should have thought of for myself!

 

[kevconnor]

Christ if the author of the report has a problem with a short reversal they would have a cerebral annurism if they seen the movements at Kiilarney station or previously Limerick junction in Ireland