Croydon-wide 20mph road traffic speed limit

[GodAtum]

Plans to impose 20mph speed limits on most of Croydon's roads got the green light last night.

Tightened restrictions on nearly all residential roads across the borough, in a bid to improve safety and reduce car use, were approved at a meeting of Croydon Council's cabinet.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/ne...peed_limits_get_green_light_from_councillors/

I am extremely mad at this I don't drive but take the bus, so my bus will be slower. I don't see how this will reduce car use either.

 

[richa2002]

"This change could bring a huge improvement to the lives of thousands of our residents plagued by speeding drivers". What makes this councillor think that current speeding drivers will have any regard for the new limit?

 

[Oswyntail]

"This change could bring a huge improvement to the lives of thousands of our residents plagued by speeding drivers". What makes this councillor think that current speeding drivers will have any regard for the new limit?

Two sorts of speeding drivers: those who ignore any speed limit; those who keep within the limit, but drive too fast for the conditions. driving at 30 through narrow streets with narrow pavements may be the sort of behaviour they are trying to control.

 

[Darandio]

Two sorts of speeding drivers: those who ignore any speed limit; those who keep within the limit, but drive too fast for the conditions. driving at 30 through narrow streets with narrow pavements may be the sort of behaviour they are trying to control.

Then just impose a 20mph limit on the unsuitable streets, surely?

 

[steamybrian]

I was born and brought up in Croydon so know the area very well.
With the increasing traffic congestion in the town the traffic does not move much faster than 20mph anyway except on a few main roads. It is unlikely to make much difference to the bus schedules.
I now live in Tonbridge, Kent where many years a number of residential roads have had 20mph speed restriction imposed to reduce accidents particularly near schools or narrow roads with many parked cars.

 

[Clip]

Its going to happen all over London too with TfL already starting trials in Tower Hamlets and other places soon. There is a massive push for this so probably London wide apart from main trunks like the circulars still being kept at normal speeds but everything else 20mph.

And really buses dont get much faster than that do they given they normally stop every so often? Bar the X68 I took a while back which seemed to race everywhere

 

[GodAtum]

There are a few streches of non-A-roads with a long stretches betwene bus stops.

 

[steamybrian]

There are a few streches of non-A-roads with a long stretches betwene bus stops.

I agree particularly on the suburbs but maybe these will not be affected..

Finally- An example is Brighton where all roads in the city centre is maximum 20mph (as far as I know).

 

[Robertj21a]

Doubt it will have much real impact. Traffic around Croydon (and most other centres) rarely gets above 20 mph anyway.

 

[radamfi]

I agree particularly on the suburbs but maybe these will not be affected..

Finally- An example is Brighton where all roads in the city centre is maximum 20mph (as far as I know).

And vast swathes of Brighton and Hove were converted to 20 mph last year.

When 20 mph zones are installed without traffic calming, most people will still drive above the limit, but the average speed drops a little, so you might as well have them given the relatively low cost.

 

[jopsuk]

Get used to it. Most urban areas in the country are moving to 20mph for non-arterial roads, in line with much of Europe (which is adopting 30km/h). We may even start to see the end of 60 being a default on non-urban roads too, rather applying speed limits appropriate to the road.

 

[Nym]

Get used to it. Most urban areas in the country are moving to 20mph for non-arterial roads, in line with much of Europe (which is adopting 30km/h). We may even start to see the end of 60 being a default on non-urban roads too, rather applying speed limits appropriate to the road.

So the limits will again be removed for rural roads...?

 

[AM9]

So the limits will again be removed for rural roads...?

No, you will see many country lanes getting speed limits of 50 or 40.

 

[Nym]

And how are they appropriate to the road?
May be appropriate for the lowest skill level of driver that somehow passes their test, or retains their licence in the face of abject stupidity. But some of us can actually drive properly...

Not to mention the likely billions to do all these assessments of roads and place up the required number of signs...

 

[BestWestern]

Portsmouth was one of the very first UK cities to adopt the dreaded 20mph policy on all but arterial routes. I can confirm that it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, nobody takes any notice and the authorities - rather surprisingly - don't seem at all interested in launching the plague of mobile cameras down every other side street that you might expect.

 

[grid56126]

I live in one of the first areas of Croydon to be affected. Bring it on as far as I am concerned. I am currently driving to Crawley for work and I am one of the annoying idiots that sticks to the speed limit and on the quieter commutes I am often cut up, overtaken and receive abuse from cars, buses and lorries.

I don't give a chuff. I know how long it will take me to get to / from work and it hardly ever varies by more than a minute or two. Those who choose to ignore the speed limits have obviously not allowed enough time for their journey and are playing catch up. I know, it used to be me. I just took a chill pill. Life - literally - is too short.

The interesting thing is that the rat runs around here will all be 20 and the main routes still 30 so there is a reasonable expectation that people will go back to the main roads and leave me pootling along at 20, happy days as far as I am concerned. So I might have to leave home maybe two or three minutes earlier and get home two or three minutes later.

SO WHAT

 

[notadriver]

Will this affect 20 mph limits also affect trams ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will this affect 20 mph limits also affect trams ?

I'd assume so, on road sections. They are road vehicles when on the road, and all rules of the road apply to them.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The interesting thing is that the rat runs around here will all be 20 and the main routes still 30 so there is a reasonable expectation that people will go back to the main roads and leave me pootling along at 20, happy days as far as I am concerned. So I might have to leave home maybe two or three minutes earlier and get home two or three minutes later.

Is that part of the reason for it? I'm less than convinced about "rat running" being a bad thing. They are just public roads which all drivers have a legal right to drive down. Just like with parking, a residential street is not generally reserved for residents.

As for 20 limits, I prefer residential streets to be de-facto 20 by way of sensible road design, e.g. adding strategic planters to encourage parking in certain places to create a natural chicane (for some reason this doesn't hack people off like speed bumps do, probably because it doesn't damage vehicles). But I see no reason for through roads to be 20, unless they are the kind of road where kids will be playing all the time (which should be a case by case thing) or timed limits outside schools. I really *don't* like it in central London, as it means when cycling (I'm not a fast cyclist, nor are most other people initially and we want to attract more of them, don't we?) I have a car or bus which is a big threat to me alongside me for longer. 30 seems fine to me.

I actually quite *do* like the idea of "home zones" with walking pace limits and no pavements, Dutch-style - but not on roads that go anywhere other than residential areas, and there is the downside of such things not being good for those with sight problems.

Neil

 

[BestWestern]

The interesting thing is that the rat runs around here will all be 20 and the main routes still 30 so there is a reasonable expectation that people will go back to the main roads and leave me pootling along at 20, happy days as far as I am concerned. So I might have to leave home maybe two or three minutes earlier and get home two or three minutes later.

The rat runs will have 20mph signage, that's all that will change. They'll still be rat runs and people will still use them, still driving at the same speeds.

The blanket 20 concept is another example of a local authority taking a potentially good idea and then messing it up. Place small 20mph zones in areas where there is a clear and legitimate need - outside schools, through main shopping districts - and enforce them properly, with traffic calming, speed humps or enforcement cameras. People will then, by and large, take notice and obey. Do that it every town and it becomes an expected standard. Spend the same budget plastering every side road with pointless 20 signs, no enforcement and no logic, and it just gets completely disregarded by all but a tiny minority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The blanket 20 concept is another example of a local authority taking a potentially good idea and then messing it up. Place small 20mph zones in areas where there is a clear and legitimate need - outside schools, through main shopping districts - and enforce them properly, with traffic calming, speed humps or enforcement cameras. People will then, by and large, take notice and obey. Do that it every town and it becomes an expected standard. Spend the same budget plastering every side road with pointless 20 signs, no enforcement and no logic, and it just gets completely disregarded by all but a tiny minority.

I agree. I find it noticeable that speed limit compliance in Milton Keynes is generally good, where most of the main roads are NSL (60/70) but there are a few targetted 40s, and 30/20 in the centre and residential areas. Yet in cities where there is blanket 30 with increasing 20s, they just get ignored, with people driving around at somewhere between 30 and 40 and getting aggressive if people comply to the limit.

Another thing I observe which is strange is that in many places where the general limit is 30 people accelerate *very* slowly to 30. Never understood why - maybe those are the people who refuse to accelerate to be travelling at 56 (if there are lorries)/70 (if not) at the bottom of a motorway slip lane, which is downright dangerous. People joining flowing motorways at 40mph have a death wish, but I see it all the time, and resent them dragging me into it.

Neil

 

[Oswyntail]

.... But some of us can actually drive properly.........

Some, but not many! And, as a rule of thumb, I would be extremely wary of anyone who claimed that about themselves in a discussion like this. (Making no judgement on Nym at all, who my or may not be telling the truth)

 

[GodAtum]

I live in one of the first areas of Croydon to be affected. Bring it on as far as I am concerned. I am currently driving to Crawley for work and I am one of the annoying idiots that sticks to the speed limit and on the quieter commutes I am often cut up, overtaken and receive abuse from cars, buses and lorries.

Surely it wont matter what the speed limit is, they will still overtake you?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Blanket 20mph zones won't work, the same numpties that ignore the 30mph limits will ignore the 20mph limits.

 

[jopsuk]

Portsmouth, contrary to some propaganda otherwise, has seen a reduction in KSIs on 20mph roads and is not choking under increased pollution. In some areas (eg Calderdale) 20mph schemes are being led- and paid for- by public health departments as the benefits are now proven.

(as for enforcement, no fixed cameras are type-approved for 20mph, only average speed cameras and hand-held measurement)

Country roads? Most them are simply unsafe to be driving at 60mph down, unless you're a rally driver and the road is shut for a race. if you want to see what lower limits looks like in practice, Clackmannanshire, the smallest rural mainland highways authority, has more or less done the entire county, with a mix of 30, 40 and 50 as appropriate.

(Yes I have strong opinions on this. it was interesting to see at least week's 20mph conference in Cambridge quite how seriously this is being taken by TfL, TfGM and smaller authorities across the country)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Portsmouth, contrary to some propaganda otherwise, has seen a reduction in KSIs on 20mph roads and is not choking under increased pollution. In some areas (eg Calderdale) 20mph schemes are being led- and paid for- by public health departments as the benefits are now proven.

I'm sure it has, and it would also see a reduction in KSIs if every motor vehicle was to be limited to 3mph with a man with a red flag walking in front. But that is not the only consideration. If it was the only consideration, motor vehicles would be banned outright.

Edit: I think this is something where we need to get peoples' views. If the majority are happy with retaining 30mph with the higher risk it poses, I think 30mph should be retained. If the majority prefers a reduced limit, so be it. But Councils going ahead and doing it in places where it makes little sense where they don't really have a mandate to do so is not appreciated.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

Locally to me at least the scheme in Cambridge is being implemented after extensive public consultation- there were gasps when the City council officer said that consultation packs had gone to every household in the city- with high return rates indicating overwhelming resident support.

Majority support from consultation is something that's been repeated across the country. If there's a scheme near you, find out about it and be involved in the process whether you're in favour or against- generally it residents that will be listened to over visitors and those passing through. This is how local democracy works.

With regards to Croydon, does anyone know what sort of consultation has been carried out and what the response was?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, I've found a link for Croydon- they've not started the consultation yet, however it is backed by the current majority Labour administration in the borough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Locally to me at least the scheme in Cambridge is being implemented after extensive public consultation- there were gasps when the City council officer said that consultation packs had gone to every household in the city- with high return rates indicating overwhelming resident support.

Cambridge is a fairly anti-car city with very high levels of cycling, so that doesn't overly surprise me.

Majority support from consultation is something that's been repeated across the country. If there's a scheme near you, find out about it and be involved in the process whether you're in favour or against- generally it residents that will be listened to over visitors and those passing through. This is how local democracy works.

To be fair, it was mooted for my local area and I objected, it seems I wasn't the only one as it seems to have gone away. Around by me the kind of local street where kids play is de-facto low-speed because of the design of the streets with chicanes, bumps, bends etc. The main roads have no need for it. And of course we have the Redway system which means people have no need to be walking along main roads anyway, whether adult or child.

Ah, I've found a link for Croydon- they've not started the consultation yet, however it is backed by the current majority Labour administration in the borough.

Will be interesting to see.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

Gnerally speaking "main routes" aren't being made 20mph (in most places)- though note TfL are going for it where a main road is also a busy shopping area, somewhere that a lot of journeys start and finish (by all modes).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Gnerally speaking "main routes" aren't being made 20mph (in most places)- though note TfL are going for it where a main road is also a busy shopping area, somewhere that a lot of journeys start and finish (by all modes).

It depends on your definition of "main routes". Certainly round by my parents (West Lancs) a few significant through roads have been made 20mph, and to me that is what makes a mockery of it.

It makes sense to me to apply it only to routes purely intended for access where if you're driving along them you are blatently "rat running", i.e. there is a parallel 30mph road you could use if you wanted.

Neil

 

[dgl]

The problem with this is 2 fold, firstly I think that if you introduce 20mph speed limits then drivers are going to be concentrating on there speedos more than watching where they are going, not good and that (well my gran was told by the mechanic years ago) modern cars aren't designed to go so slowly (and this was in relation to a 1.6 Ford focus, not a hugely powerful car (a whole 100hp!).