Velaro UK construction progress (New Eurostar rolling stock)

[theageofthetra]

Why can't trains such as these be fitted with a small diesel back up generator to supply emergency power once the batteries fail? As lighting is being replaced with far more energy efficient LED's it wouldn't need to be that big a gen unit. Also once the power has gone completely don't the train crew lose all their train based communication?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The train sat without power for several hours..... Batteries would have gone flat. Without a shadow of doubt 373s have batteries - I suggest you are talking out of your a**e.

My source - driver training!

I've yet to see proof that the 373s have got batteries. If they have got them where are they on the train?

 

[AM9]

I've yet to see proof that the 373s have got batteries. If they have got them where are they on the train?

The same place as any other passenger stock, under the floor.

 

[starrymarkb]

I've yet to see proof that the 373s have got batteries. If they have got them where are they on the train?

Under the floor of each trailer. They are capable of supplying emergency power for a couple of hours.

If you want proof they have batteries, the lights and most systems stay on during the systems changeovers approaching the tunnel, leaving the LGV or changing voltage in Belgium (the pans drop for up to 30 seconds for the change)

 

[33Hz]

373 has to provide air con / life support in the event of a fire in the tunnel for at least 30 minutes. As they won't allow a diesel to be run siren there that is out of the question.

 

[flash]

I've yet to see proof that the 373s have got batteries. If they have got them where are they on the train?

Trailer cars 3 & 7, on each half set! Why you need proof is another question.... Next you'll be asking where I've got this from - I can provide a photo of the drivers on train equipment document!

 

[Olaf]

I've yet to see proof that the 373s have got batteries. If they have got them where are they on the train?

There is this post that gives an answer:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1212691&postcount=6

 

[jon0844]

Why can't trains such as these be fitted with a small diesel back up generator to supply emergency power once the batteries fail? As lighting is being replaced with far more energy efficient LED's it wouldn't need to be that big a gen unit. Also once the power has gone completely don't the train crew lose all their train based communication?

Some backup LED lights could probably run for 24 hours or more just from a bunch of AA batteries. More than enough to allow people to see once their eyes adjust, or to highlight exits etc.

Obviously you wouldn't literally bodge something together like that, but you could certainly have rechargeable batteries in certain LED lamps (thus ensuring a backup even if the central backup power supply failed, or was somehow disconnected) to keep operational for far longer than would ever likely be required.

I'd have expected that any modern stock (as in built in the last few years) would have something like this. Do any?

 

[brianthegiant]

Some backup LED lights could probably run for 24 hours or more just from a bunch of AA batteries. More than enough to allow people to see once their eyes adjust, or to highlight exits etc.

Obviously you wouldn't literally bodge something together like that, but you could certainly have rechargeable batteries in certain LED lamps (thus ensuring a backup even if the central backup power supply failed, or was somehow disconnected) to keep operational for far longer than would ever likely be required.

I'd have expected that any modern stock (as in built in the last few years) would have something like this. Do any?

Not clear if you're advocating hand held devices or fitting small batteries to some of the fixed light fittings. Rechargeable batteries in commercial/industrial applications are a bit of a headache. From a maintenance perspective it's easier to monitor the condition of a single large battery than multiple small ones (with both remote monitoring and regular inspections). A better approach would be to have a relay which disconnects a portion of the lights if its been on battery for more than say 10 minutes, does it not already have this?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For lighting it could be something like:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/lytlec-emergency-lighting-bulkhead/43017

When used with LED bulbs it might last a bit longer. They'd be at strategic places, like in vestibules

 

[jon0844]

Swings and roundabouts. A central battery that powers the train is easier to maintain but if it fails, everything fails. Individual lights should mean some lighting is guaranteed to work.

Ideally you could mix the two. And on a modern train, each individual light could report its battery status and condition remotely.

 

[FlippyFF]

I'm on the 09:13 Ashford International to St Pancras. We've just gone past a 374 sitting in the loop at/near Singlewell.

Htioi

Simon

 

[brianthegiant]

In a building you have much longer cable runs to do in fire resistant cables with a central battery store, so this weighs in favour of battery in each lamp.

Individual status monitoring of every lamp fitting, would mean you would have to wire a comms cable to every lamp in addition to the power cable, thereby doubling the amount wiring & adding loads of complexity. Complexity is the enemy of reliability.

Maintaining a train which spends most of its time on the move is not the same game as maintaining a building, so transferring building technology (like cheap screwfix crap) is not always the best approach.

 

[AM9]

In a building you have much longer cable runs to do in fire resistant cables with a central battery store, so this weighs in favour of battery in each lamp.

Individual status monitoring of every lamp fitting, would mean you would have to wire a comms cable to every lamp in addition to the power cable, thereby doubling the amount wiring & adding loads of complexity. Complexity is the enemy of reliability.

Maintaining a train which spends most of its time on the move is not the same game as maintaining a building, so transferring building technology (like cheap screwfix crap) is not always the best approach.

Not sure what kind of telemetry network is used on UK trains, but there is a perfectly good transport oriented network used on vehicles of many kinds already. The CAN (Controller Area Network) has many levels of sophistication from avionic systems where many functions except flight critical controls can be integrated, to cars produced since the late '90s have at least the OBD (On Board Diagnostics) implemented in a CAN derivative. Interface circuits for basic control or monitoring functions can be cheap enough for lamp connections so it would not be an issue of cost in the scheme of a new of refitted train.

 

[Emyr]

Using any bus-type network, such as CAN, MIDI, or RS485, reduces your cabling problem to one loop per zone or one bus cable visiting all nodes (planning the route would be a variation of the Travelling Salesman Problem).

With an appropriate protocol, probably something like ZigBee, you wouldn't necessarily need to rely on cable runs connected to a Vehicle Monitoring System.

 

[brianthegiant]

Yes I know 'smart' networked systems are now cheap, reliable and solve all our problems. Until 10 years down the line when the chosen supplier has gone out of fashion & you're stuck with a legacy system with limited support.

First rule of engineering 'Keep it simple'

A good engineer is the one who can satisfy the requirements with a more simple solution not a more complex one.

I know CAN, zigbee etc etc are very useful (I'm surrounded by it at work), but its very fashionable to want to network everything (see recent IET members magazine about smart cities, etc). I'm just not yet convinced it will make everything better.

 

[Emyr]

Yes I know 'smart' networked systems are now cheap, reliable and solve all our problems. Until 10 years down the line when the chosen supplier has gone out of fashion & you're stuck with a legacy system with limited support.

Lets apply this to another scenario...

Yes I know 'smart' musical instruments are now cheap, reliable and solve all our problems. Until 10 years down the line when the chosen supplier has gone out of fashion & you're stuck with a legacy system with limited support.

In this case, they chose MIDI, everyone implemented it, and MIDI remains the primary standard for musical instrument interconnection, supported by many manufacturers.


I feel that the rail industry is at the right point in time to extend standardised systems beyond discrete systems for in-cab-signalling, train protection etc etc, and start standardising train diagnostics systems. Like automotive OBD interfaces, but better.

 

[AM9]

Yes I know 'smart' networked systems are now cheap, reliable and solve all our problems. Until 10 years down the line when the chosen supplier has gone out of fashion & you're stuck with a legacy system with limited support.

First rule of engineering 'Keep it simple'

A good engineer is the one who can satisfy the requirements with a more simple solution not a more complex one.

I know CAN, zigbee etc etc are very useful (I'm surrounded by it at work), but its very fashionable to want to network everything (see recent IET members magazine about smart cities, etc). I'm just not yet convinced it will make everything better.

CAN is an established set of networking standards, protocol and physical. It isn't fashionable, it is used where needed and is becoming more and more cost effective as devices include its conncetivity in their designs.

CAN is a globally agreed standard and has a very large market spread in terms of clients. Large systems are designed so that the application layer is supported specifically for the implementation. Below that the protocol and physical infrastructure will be to standards that will far outlive rail stock.

As far as keeping it simple goes, in terms of weight, performance and reliability, I don't think miles of copper wires per MU is either simple or affordable. Ethernet/CAN and the plethora of aircraft multiplexed bus's are good enough for Vehicles, buildings and equipment that have far more demanding lives than trains.

 

[Wolfie]

CAN is an established set of networking standards, protocol and physical. It isn't fashionable, it is used where needed and is becoming more and more cost effective as devices include its conncetivity in their designs.

CAN is a globally agreed standard and has a very large market spread in terms of clients. Large systems are designed so that the application layer is supported specifically for the implementation. Below that the protocol and physical infrastructure will be to standards that will far outlive rail stock.

As far as keeping it simple goes, in terms of weight, performance and reliability, I don't think miles of copper wires per MU is either simple or affordable. Ethernet/CAN and the plethora of aircraft multiplexed bus's are good enough for Vehicles, buildings and equipment that have far more demanding lives than trains.

AM9

Now that sounds like exactly the way to go. Use established standards which means that things are effectively supplier-independent. Plug-and-play modularisation would help too.

 

[Blamethrower]

tis the way they are going with PA's too due to the amount of information you can get down an ethernet cable instead of huge patch bays and cables as thick as your leg.

 

[brianthegiant]

CAN is an established set of networking standards, protocol and physical. It isn't fashionable, it is used where needed and is becoming more and more cost effective as devices include its conncetivity in their designs.

CAN is a globally agreed standard and has a very large market spread in terms of clients. Large systems are designed so that the application layer is supported specifically for the implementation. Below that the protocol and physical infrastructure will be to standards that will far outlive rail stock.

As far as keeping it simple goes, in terms of weight, performance and reliability, I don't think miles of copper wires per MU is either simple or affordable. Ethernet/CAN and the plethora of aircraft multiplexed bus's are good enough for Vehicles, buildings and equipment that have far more demanding lives than trains.

Sure there are plenty of examples where everyone uses a common standard, but also plenty of examples where they don't (building energy management systems, railway coupler control connections).

But aside from all that I still doubt that a networked connection to every light fitting would come out as the best solution, if proper requirements & solution analysis is done.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I do not know if I am behind the times but yesterday (Thursday 12.03.2015) at about 10:30 I saw a new pair of Velaros 374015 & 374016 as I passed Temple Mills. These were in what I assume are the reception sidings to the South of the depot.

Of the usual pair I see (007&008 and 011&012) I saw one end of 374008 with 7 likely at the North end in the usual place by the shed nearest to the Stratford to Tottenham-Hale line. Mind you I have not been looking for a few months.

I do not even know if any Velaros are in service or are we still at the testing stage ?.

 

[MCR247]

Testing stage. I'm sure Eurostar will make a big thing of the first one (or does it count as two?) entering service

 

[Peter Sarf]

Testing stage. I'm sure Eurostar will make a big thing of the first one (or does it count as two?) entering service

Thanks for the info. I was thinking it really must be ages since they were first arriving and being such a high number (eighth pair) surely they must have ironed out all things requiring type test by this stage and be into commissioning ?. Its all been very quiet I feel.

 

[MCR247]

I'd like to hope that they've started commissioning since I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the first set was meant to be in service by December (unless I've just made that up somewhere)

 

[jon0844]

Thanks for the info. I was thinking it really must be ages since they were first arriving and being such a high number (eighth pair) surely they must have ironed out all things requiring type test by this stage and be into commissioning ?. Its all been very quiet I feel.

They've been at Temple Mills for so long, I was wondering if they were going to be scrapped before they entered service!

 

[33Hz]

There's usually a set parked at the depot at Brussels and in the past couple of months I've twice seen another set out on the line heading towards Liège and Germany. Optimistic that's for some future service they are planning.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They've been at Temple Mills for so long, I was wondering if they were going to be scrapped before they entered service!

Ha Ha. Oh er. Perhaps the Canadians can be got interested in them then .

 

[BananaRepublic]

Not withstanding the time it takes to introduce a completely new train type, with all the testing and certification processes involved, there seems to have been an excessively long time period involved from the first few sets undergoing tests, to the present day.

Surely this must be costing someone a fortune as half the fleet has been completed and is lying idle and not yet in revenue earning service.
Who is paying for the trains to sit around, Eurostar or Siemens?

 

[user15681]

4015/4016 arrived early hours of 27/02/2015.

They are still undergoing tests, not just idle...