Indeed. I think the point of offering the compensation scheme is to 'motivate' the company into making sure reservations are honoured.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
XC enforcing invisible reservations
- Thread starter embers25
- Start date
- Status
Indeed. I think the point of offering the compensation scheme is to 'motivate' the company into making sure reservations are honoured.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
They don't guarantee anything other than your right to compensation as laid out further along the NRCoC should this condition in favour of the passenger be breached, I'm afraid.
It's not an unbreakable oath, it's a condition with defined penalties for breaching it. You may have a reservation for a train but that doesn't mean I as the person in charge have to even let you on it let alone produce a guaranteed seat if it's full, same as cycle reservations and luggage etc.
Actually the guarantee is there. Condition 40 guarentees you a seat (although not a specific seat), but only if you have a valid seat reservation. The word "guarantee" is indeed stated. But as you say condition 41 outlines the alternative accommodation to be provided or if no alternative can be found compensation. So the NRCoC guarentee both a seat if you hold a reservation and compensation if you are not offered a seat and hold said reservation.
So if the train turned up, I had a valid reservation for that service, couldn't get a seat and the guard turned round and said "tough luck, this does not guarentee you a seat", that guard is wrong. Operationally there are obviously cases where seats are guaranteed but cannot be honoured. In these cases Condition 41 kicks in. The response from the guard should therefore be "I'm sorry sir, we were supposed to guarentee you a seat, but for X reason we cannot today. I've tried my best to find you an alternative but it isn't possible. I'll endorse your ticket and you are entitled to compensation".
Based on Flamingo's comment about the intent being for the passenger to see, I don't think the bag actually stays on the platform for very long.
moggie
Member
But what is the point of the most expensive 'anytime' ticket if you then reserve a seat pinning yourself to a particular train? The whole point is to maintain flexibility in your choice of train. The risk being that you have to find an unreserved seat. But once you've found one, i.e. one that is not shown in any way to be reserved sit tight. It's the TM's problem to deal with a failure to display reservations, not yours and don't allow anyone to make it your problem - politely of course.
Then again, a bit or common sense and courtesy, though not mandatory is always worthy, especially to someone clearly inconvenienced by the TOC's service failure.
Then again, a bit or common sense and courtesy, though not mandatory is always worthy, especially to someone clearly inconvenienced by the TOC's service failure.
Last edited:
Which is basically what I've said - an alternative precis could be 'when is a guarantee not a guarantee'. I apologise for seat reservations being unavailable and explain compensation but I've no interest in warbling on about guarantees when despite the wording due to a get out clause it isn't one. Regrettably if the train is in such a condition I'm liable to have better things to do than say 'ah yes, a guaranteed seat - not today!'. To me a guarantee is just that and this isn't as there's a predefined set of actions for failure.
Exactly!
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 5,576
But you would still have that flexibility.
You would just have to use that train for you to still use that reservation. There is nothing stopping you getting a different train, but of course you wouldn't then have a reserved seat.
pne
Member
Is it possible to reserve a seat "on spec" on multiple trains for the same leg, say three consecutive trains an hour apart? And then no-show on two of them and take the remaining one, sure to have a seat whichever train you end up taking?
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
You would be surprised the number of people who think that because they have an Anytime ticket and seat C15 reserved, they are entitled to seat C15 on whatever train they decide to catch. It is often very difficult to persuade them otherwise...
BestWestern
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,736
Hell yes! I had to explain several times recently to a passenger why their booked seat on a previous cancelled train would be occupied by somebody else on the next service...
pne
Member
Thank you!
This should be nothing to do with petty bylaws - it is a customer service issue. If you have to reach for the rulebook to resolve a bad customer experience you have already lost the argument. Ask yourself if Marks and Spencer or John Lewis ever do that. When I travelled on an annual season part of my journey was on XC voyagers but my season was issued by SWT. i was told that the only way I could reserve a seat was to make a reservation every day, and like all other season ticket holders I have better things to do that queue up at a counter daily or spend minutes every day in a phone queue. All regular XC commuters know that there are many reservations not taken up - usually by passengers who get on, find a seat and then ignore their actual seat reservation. That is one thing, but then XC announced that "invisible" reservations could be made almost up to departure time, not to mention their regular failure to print and place the reservation seat cards and the frequent substitution of a short 4 car unit on what was a 5 car train so all the regular XC season ticket customers were constantly on edge, wondering if their seat will just be claimed by a boarding passenger at any station. Last minute seat reservation was a stupid arrangement, dreamt up by some very poor XC marketing manager with no thought of the actual passenger experience, and the passengers who suffered the most are regular customers. ( I was travelling Southampton to Slough via Reading btw) The trip to Reading felt like and smelled like being trapped in a hot toilet with 250 strangers
No matter how far the railway progresses it always has lot further to go.
No matter how far the railway progresses it always has lot further to go.
The issue I have come across is where someone reserves a seat for part of a train's journey, gets on before the station where their reservation starts, and then think they are enititled to that seat.
Some years ago I was travelling from Edinburgh to Dunbar. The train was busy, but I managed to find a seat that was reserved from Berwick to London. Before the train left Edinburgh, the person who had reserved the seat from Berwick got on (I hope she had an addtional ticket) and demanded that I gave up "her" seat.
Some years ago I was travelling from Edinburgh to Dunbar. The train was busy, but I managed to find a seat that was reserved from Berwick to London. Before the train left Edinburgh, the person who had reserved the seat from Berwick got on (I hope she had an addtional ticket) and demanded that I gave up "her" seat.
Justin Smith
Established Member
Sorry if this question has already been asked before, my point refers quite specifically to this new instant online ticket booking that XC (and possibly other TOCs) may introduce. Is it really the case that you could get on a train, pick an unreserved seat which then subsequently becomes reserved during the course of the journey, then you`re asked to move ! ? If that`s true how can that be fair ? ! ? It`d be one more nail in the "turn up and go" railway, something I think we should all fight against. Ironically, the chances are that the passenger who bought their ticket on a turn up and go basis probably paid more, possibly significantly more, than the passenger who booked an instant online ticket, yet another reason that it`s infair....
Oh yes, and it`d be yet another thing forcing people to have smart phones, something I really don`t want !
Oh yes, and it`d be yet another thing forcing people to have smart phones, something I really don`t want !
Last edited:
Yes. There are stickers next to the seats that are available for 'on the fly' reservations saying that they "May become reserved during the journey" or words to that effect. Once reserved, as far as XC are concerned it has the same effect as if there had been a reservation label/sign when you sat down.
backontrack
Established Member
If XC just got the things actually working, then this wouldn't happen. Beyond that, than I think they should be forced to deal with refunds.
Jonfun
Established Member
Easier said than done though isn't it? If it was as simple as you seem to make out, it wouldn't have been a persistant problem for over a decade. That sort of technology was in (relative) infancy when it was introduced, and if we were starting from scratch now it would be done very differently.
Luckily, recent modifications make the system more reliable - although by no means 100% working. These include replacement of parts of the communications equipment, software tweaks, and a couple of other changes.
backontrack
Established Member
Then it's just a matter of sticking paper in the top of seats. EC manage it, and they run more services than XC.
Jonfun
Established Member
Which already happens, where possible. It's hardly unusual to see a Voyager running around with seat reservation tickets in the seat backs.
CC 72100
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2012
- Messages
- 3,849
I must say, to XC's credit, that the system does seem a lot more reliable these days.
I don't agree with the scale of 10 ten minute reservations, but at least XC have got it to a point where the system is considerably more reliable than it ever used to be.
Paper tickets only work if there is something written on them. The HST I was on the other day had no reservations loaded on the electric screens in my coach, and so used labels instead. Every single seat had a label, slight problem was that every single label was blank. So you know that the seat is reserved, but when exactly and between which stations seemed to be an afterthought
I don't agree with the scale of 10 ten minute reservations, but at least XC have got it to a point where the system is considerably more reliable than it ever used to be.
Paper tickets only work if there is something written on them. The HST I was on the other day had no reservations loaded on the electric screens in my coach, and so used labels instead. Every single seat had a label, slight problem was that every single label was blank. So you know that the seat is reserved, but when exactly and between which stations seemed to be an afterthought
pne
Member
Because a ticket is evidence of a contract to convey you from A to B.
It says nothing about whether you spend that journey standing up or sitting down.
Otherwise how could it be fair that someone purchases a high-cost Anytime ticket and steps onto a morning commuter train and (gasp!) has to stand because all the seats are filled with people holding season tickets, who paid a lot less per journey?
It's "turn up and go", not "turn up and sit".
The missing piece of the puzzle on short notice reservations is the ability for the reservation system to also be updated when seats are occupied (ie. when a walk on fare sits down at a non-reserved seat, this should take it out of action).
Some form of wireless 'tap' technology attached to each seat that can read the magnetic strip and block out the seat accordingly should do it. Or if you really want to put the onus on the passenger an "app" where can (once only) reserve their own seat with a ticket serial number to make sure they don't get turfed out once sat down.
Without either of these things in place, it's not on for any TOC to do this to their passengers. I've no time for "the railways can do what they like and the passengers will just have to lump it" types, who tend to forget that the passenger railways are meant to carry people, and that people deserve some basic respect.
Some form of wireless 'tap' technology attached to each seat that can read the magnetic strip and block out the seat accordingly should do it. Or if you really want to put the onus on the passenger an "app" where can (once only) reserve their own seat with a ticket serial number to make sure they don't get turfed out once sat down.
Without either of these things in place, it's not on for any TOC to do this to their passengers. I've no time for "the railways can do what they like and the passengers will just have to lump it" types, who tend to forget that the passenger railways are meant to carry people, and that people deserve some basic respect.
Great in theory, not likely to happen any time soon though. I think that "This seat may be reserved during the journey" is the best you're going to get.
My understanding is that less than half the seats in a single a carriage are able to be booked online in this manner, I would be concerned if this scheme was extended to the whole train.
Justin Smith
Established Member
Sorry, are we suffering from a breakdown in communication here ?
You get on a train, there`s a choice of unreserved seats, you pick one, the train fills up so there aren`t many (or even any) seats left. Half way though the journey someone gets on and says I`ve reserved that seat 10 minutes ago, so you`ll have to shift, I don`t care if there`s no where for you to sit.
Two things :
1 Have I got that right ?
2 If I have got that right how can anyone think that`s fair ? ! ?
It also p****s me off that this is one more area of life where there`ll end up being two classes of people, those with smart phones (and who know all the tricks) and those without, and fairness has gone out of the window. There`s so much about modern life I dislike and it`s getting worse all the time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you tell me if I`ve got this right ?
If a passenger buys a a ticket at the station the income for that ticket is split between all the TOCs on that route. If a passenger buys a reserved ticket just for (say) XC then only XC gets the income ?
If I`ve got that right there`s an obvious conflict of interest in that the TOCs would want to encourage short notice reservations so they get the income, and one more nail in the coffin of an integrated railway....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But does that include all the previously reserved seats ? So the question is how many seats can you sit in which aren`t reserved at the start of the journey and which don`t run the risk of becoming resrved during journey ?
Last edited:
1. Yes
2. I don't like it, but I don't think it;s unfair, at least not by my definition of fairness.
I'll try and explain further. Everyone has a choice whether they have a smart phone or not, and everyone has a choice over whether to use the TMR feature. or, indeed, whether to book a seat a day, or a week, or further ahead than that.
I'd call it unfair if there was any barrier to someone exercising that choice. Making your own choice and then living with the consequences isn't the same thing. It's not realistic to say I have chosen not to own something or do something, but because others have made a different choice it's not fair.
See my above comments. If you don't want to do something, that's fine, but you can't expect others not to do it just because you don't like it. If you feel really aggrieved that others have advantages over you, then the solution is get a smartphone and learn those 'tricks', just like they have.
XC only fares will mean that XC gets all the revenue from that ticket, except for any commission paid out tot he retailer. It's the ticket type that is relevant, not the method or location of purchase.
We're back to choice again. The passenger gets a choice of fares, they can save money with a restricted ticket or they can spend more for flexibility. As I said, I would never use TMR, I don't like it and it's my choice not to bother with it. As a feature, it works for some people and more importantly it works for XC, in terms of attracting new custom and increasing revenue, or else they would have got rid of it. Money is always the bottom line.
From the ORR/Passenger Experience report:
(http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/11748/rail-passenger-experience-report.pdf)
"There are some risks. Some passengers may find their seat has been reserved, mid-journey, by a new passenger boarding the train. Passenger Focus has stressed that seat reservations will need to be closely managed by train staff to resolve disputes before they arise. If the train is very busy, the train manager will be able to suspend further ticket sales and reservations."
"Passenger Focus considered that, despite the risks, this innovation could significantly benefit passengers but must be monitored over time and adapted to meet passengers’ needs in light of experience."
Question: Has the system ever been suspended as the report suggests should be possible?
Why does the report think that suspension is possible, if it doesn't in fact happen?
It sounds to me like non of this is actually happening as expected.
If the ORR and passenger focus are expecting XC to suspend this and they aren't, why aren't they?
Actually, if I can add another comment. I'm very disappointed in XC for this stupidity.
The underlying idea is actually quite brilliant, to be able to get a seat up to 10 minutes before departure.
It's just that the implementation is totally botched and makes many of those involved unhappy.
(http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/11748/rail-passenger-experience-report.pdf)
"There are some risks. Some passengers may find their seat has been reserved, mid-journey, by a new passenger boarding the train. Passenger Focus has stressed that seat reservations will need to be closely managed by train staff to resolve disputes before they arise. If the train is very busy, the train manager will be able to suspend further ticket sales and reservations."
"Passenger Focus considered that, despite the risks, this innovation could significantly benefit passengers but must be monitored over time and adapted to meet passengers’ needs in light of experience."
Question: Has the system ever been suspended as the report suggests should be possible?
Why does the report think that suspension is possible, if it doesn't in fact happen?
It sounds to me like non of this is actually happening as expected.
If the ORR and passenger focus are expecting XC to suspend this and they aren't, why aren't they?
Actually, if I can add another comment. I'm very disappointed in XC for this stupidity.
The underlying idea is actually quite brilliant, to be able to get a seat up to 10 minutes before departure.
It's just that the implementation is totally botched and makes many of those involved unhappy.
Last edited:
The implementation was decidedly poor. If it had been done better than that may have prevented some, but not all of the negativity. I don't think the technology was ready for this sort of feature to be introduced in a workable manner, and I think that remains true today. We need an intelligent system that will know what seats are actually available ie empty, and should a seat be booked under TMR, the display should be able to change to show that.
- Status