Doors close 90 seconds prior to departure

[mbreckers]

Hey all,

first of all sorry if this is the wrong board, but i think its the closest.

Cause im a geek I follow a lot of what ScotRail are doing on twitter, and one common complaint I see is that a train has closed its doors early. ScotRail usually reply that doors will close either 60 or 90 seconds prior to departure.

Two questions really.

1. Is it 60 seconds or 90 seconds?
2. Why? I can understand on trains with conductors but why on DOO services?

TIA

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Doors systems take time to close and the interlocks to operate and show up in the driving cab as a "Doors Locked" or "Door Interlock" light.

This can take up to 30s to get if it's a long train & all the doors are open, yet only perhaps 10-15s on a short train.

So the procedure could be platform staff if any give the driver "The Tip" or operate CD indicator.

The driver then activates the doors, the doors then close & (s)he then has to do his/her checks, so check interlock, check signal, get RA indicator if at a manned station and all that can take up to 60s, before wheels start to roll.

90s I think is a tad excessive.

 

[Nippy]

I don't know why they can't advertise all trains as one minute earlier on the public time.

 

[170401]

I too was a bit bamboozled at the suggestion of 60 or 90 seconds

I've never known the procedure to be allocated more than 30 seconds for power door stock irrespective of train length.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't know why they can't advertise all trains as one minute earlier on the public time.

Or why can't users of train services make sure they get on/off the train a minute earlier. The time listed in the timetable is the departure time not the door closing time. If a train is scheduled to leave at xx:10 then the doors have to close before that to allow departure at xx:10

 

[Zoidberg]

Or why can't users of train services make sure they get on/off the train a minute earlier. The time listed in the timetable is the departure time not the door closing time. If a train is scheduled to leave at xx:10 then the doors have to close before that to allow departure at xx:10

Hmmm, getting off a minute earlier could be challenging if the train has not yet stopped at the platform

 

[Senex]

I don't know why they can't advertise all trains as one minute earlier on the public time.

Surely it really depends on how the start-to-pass time is calculated for the first section. In this country it does not include an allowance for despatch, and so if the train is to get away on time, then the door-close procedure needs to start half a minute before the advertised time. In Germany WTTs include the time needed for door-closing, so what you will normally get with an ICE is the doors closing on the stated departure time (and the train still keeps its point-to-point times). I think in France for TGVs the actual start-time is half a minute later than the public time, to allow for despatch. It doesn't really matter how you do it as long as everyone understands what system is in use, but I think I prefer the German system, which seems more honest to all concerned.

 

[Geezertronic]

Hmmm, getting off a minute earlier could be challenging if the train has not yet stopped at the platform

Of course I meant when the train had stopped Some people leave it to the last seconds to get off a train as well

 

[TimG]

Surely it really depends on how the start-to-pass time is calculated for the first section. In this country it does not include an allowance for despatch, and so if the train is to get away on time, then the door-close procedure needs to start half a minute before the advertised time. In Germany WTTs include the time needed for door-closing, so what you will normally get with an ICE is the doors closing on the stated departure time (and the train still keeps its point-to-point times). I think in France for TGVs the actual start-time is half a minute later than the public time, to allow for despatch. It doesn't really matter how you do it as long as everyone understands what system is in use, but I think I prefer the German system, which seems more honest to all concerned.

So it is the uk that is bonkers!

 

[davetheguard]

Surely it really depends on how the start-to-pass time is calculated for the first section. In this country it does not include an allowance for despatch, and so if the train is to get away on time, then the door-close procedure needs to start half a minute before the advertised time. In Germany WTTs include the time needed for door-closing, so what you will normally get with an ICE is the doors closing on the stated departure time (and the train still keeps its point-to-point times). I think in France for TGVs the actual start-time is half a minute later than the public time, to allow for despatch. It doesn't really matter how you do it as long as everyone understands what system is in use, but I think I prefer the German system, which seems more honest to all concerned.

I've just returned from a trip that included travelling on the TGV from Marseille to Paris Lyon.

The ticket, issued by DB in the UK, had the following words printed on it: Zugtueren schliessen in Frankreich 2 Min vor Abfahrt. Which my schoolboy German translates as: "Train doors in France close two minutes before departure".

 

[cb a1]

Or why can't users of train services make sure they get on/off the train a minute earlier. The time listed in the timetable is the departure time not the door closing time. If a train is scheduled to leave at xx:10 then the doors have to close before that to allow departure at xx:10

Public timetables should IMO, be passenger orientated rather than industry orientated.

If the industry wants to have departure timetables for operational purposes that is absolutely fine, but these should be for the industry not the passengers.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Go look at realtimetrains then you'll see what's what when it comes to GBTT & WTT.

I know the score with the railway that's why I'm on the platform at least 5' prior to the booked departure time, that way I'm not the one going to be left behind.

 

[Zoidberg]

Of course I meant when the train had stopped Some people leave it to the last seconds to get off a train as well

Yes, I knew what you meant and I agree with your observation. I just couldn't resist

 

[martynbristow]

Public timetables should IMO, be passenger orientated rather than industry orientated.

If the industry wants to have departure timetables for operational purposes that is absolutely fine, but these should be for the industry not the passengers.

2nded!
I can see people moaning that they got there when the train was in the platform etc but the current system is to complex.
Is it on time, 30s, 60s, now 90s. This will depend on your operator and other factors.

My local service has wheels rolling 60s before booked departure!

 

[Philip C]

Trains arriving from Hastings and joining up with other carriages at Tunbridge Wells do not have their doors released until after the coupling procedure is complete. Thus it is common that passengers are not released from their imprisonment until three or four minutes after arrival. Of course the timetable shows the train arrival time and not that of door release. As the station is well placed for bus connections the scope for missing these is considerable.

Is anyone aware of anywhere else on the Southern (or nationally) where this crazy practice pertains?

 

[snail]

Public timetables should IMO, be passenger orientated rather than industry orientated.

And then you'll be back here complaining that the trains always leave 90 seconds later than the published time.

We haven't had one of these threads for a while but they do crop up with irritating regularity!

 

[Devonman2014]

Trains arriving from Hastings and joining up with other carriages at Tunbridge Wells do not have their doors released until after the coupling procedure is complete. Thus it is common that passengers are not released from their imprisonment until three or four minutes after arrival. Of course the timetable shows the train arrival time and not that of door release. As the station is well placed for bus connections the scope for missing these is considerable.

Is anyone aware of anywhere else on the Southern (or nationally) where this crazy practice pertains?

Happens in Salisbury when the Exeter - Waterloo (2x159) meets and joins with a Bristol - Waterloo (1x158 or 159) to give a 8 or 9 car Salisbury - Waterloo. Luckily there's no "tight" connections train wise so doesn't apoear to be a issue , can't comment on connections with buses.

 

[cb a1]

And then you'll be back here complaining that the trains always leave 90 seconds later than the published time.

We haven't had one of these threads for a while but they do crop up with irritating regularity!

I wouldn't be, but I get your drift

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Trains arriving from Hastings and joining up with other carriages at Tunbridge Wells do not have their doors released until after the coupling procedure is complete. Thus it is common that passengers are not released from their imprisonment until three or four minutes after arrival. Of course the timetable shows the train arrival time and not that of door release. As the station is well placed for bus connections the scope for missing these is considerable.

Is anyone aware of anywhere else on the Southern (or nationally) where this crazy practice pertains?

Southampton/Bournemouth & sometimes Portsmouth Harbour.It's not crazy, it's the quickest & safest method of attaching to another train.

 

[tsr]

It's very occasionally done at London Bridge when services are very late - so as to speed things up by only releasing the doors once. The driver should usually pass the information to the conductor or passengers.

 

[Philip C]

Southampton/Bournemouth & sometimes Portsmouth Harbour.It's not crazy, it's the quickest & safest method of attaching to another train.

Thank you for this. What exactly happens at Portsmouth Harbour? Are you referring to a terminating train arriving with passengers and then coupling to empty stock in the platform before allowing them to leave their train or what?

Four times an hour (twice up and twice down) trains divide/couple at Haywards Heath with the paying customers being given the opportunity to alight before the division/combination. Once this has been done the doors are briefly re-released prior to the trains moving off. The same is the case at Eastbourne when portions are terminated there. Down trains dividing at Tunbridge Wells allow passengers off on arrival, that is before the division - indeed I'd be interested to see the reaction to any imprisonment of these passengers for the time it took to split the train! But not with up trains there.

Whilst it may be a few seconds quicker I cannot understand why you think it to be safer - slam doors used to be much more problematic during these manoeuvres and I cannot recall anyone getting hurt.

What I do regard as bad practice is that of trains arriving on time, but passengers being unable to alight until four minutes or so after that time. The railways are keen enough to tell us that a train will reach a destination several minutes after its WTT time, when it suits its late running stats. From this I take it that the Public TT is for the benefit of passengers. However when the plan is to keep passengers stuck on board beyond the arrival of the train, Joe Public is kept in the dark to the potential disadvantage of those making time critical connections - and it isn't necessary.

To finish this mini-rant. I do also find it a little disingenuous when EuroStar or airlines advertise journey times without reference to the unavoidable check-in time. It's a bit like shopping in the USA when taxes get added to the bill above the marked price. Just not customer friendly - Have A Nice Day:cry:!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've read some twaddle in my time, but to describe it as imprisonment is complete & utter BS!

The rules are what we follow and that's what happens.

It's quicker & easier because I can couple them up within 60-90s, beforehand a pre-recorded announcement is played on board, on the platform a pre-recorded announcement is made, everyone is aware of what's about to take place, there's an ease forward, pause, ease forward & onto the other unit (there maybe a second pause & on depending on distance the attaching unit stops away from that being attached to).

The computer checks within seconds and the guard told to release the doors, passengers alight & board, no fuss, no drama & no passcoms or egresses pulled.

Do it your way and you can get panicked passengers stuck in closing doors, worried one's pulling passcoms & egresses as their luggage, kids & dog may still be on the platform and then delays whilst the mayhem is sorted out.

I do what I am told and that's the end of it. The argument & subject is a MOOT point.

If you're so inept as to leave your connection so tight that it can be down to 60-120s then that's your fault not mine.

 

[Antman]

Surely it really depends on how the start-to-pass time is calculated for the first section. In this country it does not include an allowance for despatch, and so if the train is to get away on time, then the door-close procedure needs to start half a minute before the advertised time. In Germany WTTs include the time needed for door-closing, so what you will normally get with an ICE is the doors closing on the stated departure time (and the train still keeps its point-to-point times). I think in France for TGVs the actual start-time is half a minute later than the public time, to allow for despatch. It doesn't really matter how you do it as long as everyone understands what system is in use, but I think I prefer the German system, which seems more honest to all concerned.

We're lagging behind the French and Germans once again
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or why can't users of train services make sure they get on/off the train a minute earlier. The time listed in the timetable is the departure time not the door closing time. If a train is scheduled to leave at xx:10 then the doors have to close before that to allow departure at xx:10

This is an old chesnut but why should the onus be on the passenger to get there ahead of the stated time? Ideally they probably would but have you never been delayed en route to the station? I wouldn't be too pleased to bust a gut to get the 08.00 only to see it departing at 07.59:-x

 

[Greenback]

You shouldn't see it departing at 07:59, wheels should start to turn at 08:00, you won't be able to get on at 07:59...

Conversely, if the timetable showed a departure time of 07:59, how would you feel if you were delayed and arrived to find the train still sitting in the platform at 07:59 and 50 seconds? You still won't be able to get on, but many would be miffed that the train was still there!

 

[maniacmartin]

When trains divide or attach at Purley, they also release the doors, then close the doors, do the coupling, open the doors a second time, close the doors, and then depart. This process seems to be followed even if the train is running late.

 

[tsr]

If you take the 60-120 second coupling time mentioned above (a reasonable estimate if everything goes well and the procedure is quick), that could only leave a remaining 1 or 2 minutes at some Southern stations for any connections to still be officially made following booked arrival times. Examples include Redhill, Haywards Heath (theoretically) and Purley.

This is perhaps why many Southern stations with regular coupling of passenger trains will feature the doors being opened on said trains prior to coupling.

Woe betide if you had services coupling up at Norwood Junction without the doors being released first. The official connection time still appears to be 2 minutes!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

But Southern have one of the worst punctuality records going, they're always late going across from Brighton & Barnham to Portsmouth & Southampton.

How they're allowed to continue to run across there with such an abysmal record of delays & cancellations I don't know and a lot of it is down to the portion working at either Haywards Heath/Horsham or Barnham.

 

[Philip C]

I've read some twaddle in my time, but to describe it as imprisonment is complete & utter BS!

The rules are what we follow and that's what happens.

It's quicker & easier because I can couple them up within 60-90s, beforehand a pre-recorded announcement is played on board, on the platform a pre-recorded announcement is made, everyone is aware of what's about to take place, there's an ease forward, pause, ease forward & onto the other unit (there maybe a second pause & on depending on distance the attaching unit stops away from that being attached to).

The computer checks within seconds and the guard told to release the doors, passengers alight & board, no fuss, no drama & no passcoms or egresses pulled.

Do it your way and you can get panicked passengers stuck in closing doors, worried one's pulling passcoms & egresses as their luggage, kids & dog may still be on the platform and then delays whilst the mayhem is sorted out.

I do what I am told and that's the end of it. The argument & subject is a MOOT point.

If you're so inept as to leave your connection so tight that it can be down to 60-120s then that's your fault not mine.

I'm sorry if I have caused you some discomfort by using the word "imprisonment" and will use some other expression if you can suggest one.

I don't doubt that there is some rule being applied at Tunbridge Wells on the up and that this also applies to a range of other locations identified by other posters. However there are many counter-examples and, in my experience, the practice of "arrive-open-close-couple/uncouple-open-close-depart" is much the more common. So the rules cannot be universal or, given the mix of practice on SouthEastern, driven by considerations of the stock involved; and I strain to believe that it relates to site specific safety issues either.

As a passenger I take my own risks as regards which connections I attempt; however I do not take well to arriving at a station at the publicly timetabled time and being detained for four minutes (90-120 seconds is simply not my experience) whilst a rule is applied, especially when this is the operator's intention, but is hidden from me in its publicity. Why can I not rely upon the published arrival time? Of course the train might be running ten minutes late, but making that fourteen can still be the difference between catching and missing a bus.

The sight of occasional passengers becoming increasingly concerned that they may not be able to get off the train and be carried on to High Brooms is not always a comfortable one.

Finally could you please explain what it is that goes on at Portsmouth Harbour (a terminal station)?

 

[Geezertronic]

I'm sorry if I have caused you some discomfort by using the word "imprisonment" and will use some other expression if you can suggest one.

Inconvenience would be a better expression