Train Departing 5 Minutes Early

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I was heading to Liverpool on Saturday and was due to catch the 19.13 Arriva Trains Wales service from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction to get my connection.

I arrived at the station at 19.09 to see the train had already departed and I had to wait for the next train and ended up arriving into Liverpool over 30 minutes later than planned. Not the end of the world but frustrating as I had made plans.

I have spoken with ATW who are investigating and will get back to me.

The point of this thread is to get some insight from those in the industry to how and why this happened?
Is it likely to just be the conductor not checking the departure time correctly?

Should the driver not have spoken with him and checked when he signalled him to depart so early?

Is there any reasons they could legitimately leave 5 minutes early?

All theories welcome

 

[ValleyLines142]

Some judgemental so and so will turn around on here shortly and say that arriving at 1909 for a 1913 train is cutting it a bit tight, and I would agree with this but Llandudno isn't exactly Birmingham New Street or London Victoria, so you would have had plenty of time.

My only guess, and I am not knowledgeable in this area so please correct me if I'm wrong, is that perhaps there were delays further along the line and special permission was given for that train, or perhaps a path was free hence why it left early.

However, in spite of that, announcements should have been made at the station and it sounds as if there wasn't.

 

[FQ]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C31011/2015/03/07/advanced

Here is an RTT link of the train if anyone is interested.

 

[CallySleeper]

My only guess, and I am not knowledgeable in this area so please correct me if I'm wrong, is that perhaps there were delays further along the line and special permission was given for that train, or perhaps a path was free hence why it left early.

I'd discount both of these. The distance from Llandudno to the junction is 3m27ch. At Llan Junction the train terminates and returns to Llandudno. Re: paths, there's two trains an hour at most in each direction.

 

[yorkie]

The point of this thread is to get some insight from those in the industry to how and why this happened?

There have been numerous threads on this. There are various possibilities including (but not limited to):

• Watches being incorrect (and/or not provided by the Company)
• Station clocks being incorrect
• Discrepancies between working & public & temporary timetables
• Incorrect timings being provided on the timing sheets given to staff
• Misunderstandings
• Previously late running meaning staff may be trying to despatch as quickly as possible without realising they're back on time (admittedly not really applicable to the origin of the service)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some judgemental so and so will turn around on here shortly and say that arriving at 1909 for a 1913 train is cutting it a bit tight

At a two platform station if you already had a ticket?

Tons of time.

Neil

 

[andypops]

I seem to remember similar early departures occurring quite a lot recently on the North Wales route. Some have certainly been reported here (can't search; in a rush).

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The clocks were all correct so it wasn't that for sure. I tweeted ATW images of the departure screen time and also a screenshot of National rail enquiries app showing departed on time 2 minutes before it should have left!!

I think this will just be down to the guard getting his times muddled up. The 19.13 is a saturday only service, the week day one is 19.05 ( but goes to Blaenau Ffestiniog) so I thought he may have confused the time with this but it doesn't really fit either.

I will wait and see what ATW have to say. I was just wondering if there could be any genuine reason for it.
It appears not based on the train starting from Llandudno , it being on a branch line and paths not being an issue etc.

 

[dk1]

Sounds just like a human error annoying though it is. Must admit that as a driver I rarely check the time when the guard gives me the buzz-buzz. Only time I have legitimately left earlier is do to fire alarms sounding & they want you rid.

 

[Tracky]

I suspect it is human error here.

Sadly the standard pattern clockface hourly timetable is something Arriva started but lost within politics led train planning and the pressure on very limited resources. Lots of Junction shuttles depart at xx08...

 

[AM9]

So in such circumstances, would missing a train that left early be a claim for delay repay?

 

[TEW]

Sounds just like a human error annoying though it is. Must admit that as a driver I rarely check the time when the guard gives me the buzz-buzz. Only time I have legitimately left earlier is do to fire alarms sounding & they want you rid.

Interestingly I have been on two trains in the last week where the guard has signalled that the train is ready to start, but the driver has not started the train as it was early. Both times the doors were then re-released and the trains left on time.

 

[James268]

The early running was due to human error.

Going through realtimetrains, the previous 5 Junction shuttles leave at xx:08, and so does the one after, at 20:08.

The driver and guard assumed this service was the same. (it doesn't appear to be the same crew working the shuttles. The services seem to go LLD>LLJ>LLD>MAN)

 

[craigybagel]

The early running was due to human error.

Going through realtimetrains, the previous 5 Junction shuttles leave at xx:08, and so does the one after, at 20:08.

The driver and guard assumed this service was the same. (it doesn't appear to be the same crew working the shuttles. The services seem to go LLD>LLJ>LLD>MAN)

And you know this for certain how?

 

[gazthomas]

5 mins is a lot

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'd discount both of these. The distance from Llandudno to the junction is 3m27ch. At Llan Junction the train terminates and returns to Llandudno. Re: paths, there's two trains an hour at most in each direction.

I meant maybe there were delays on the main line, so maybe the train was permitted to leave early to avoid being delayed at the Junction?

Also, said service was from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction, not the other way around.

There are also four trains an hour (through the majority of the day).

At a two platform station if you already had a ticket?

Tons of time.

Neil

I agree entirely (it's also a 3 platform station, not 2), but I can imagine, and wouldn't be surprised, if ATW pick the OP up on this.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is there any reasons they could legitimately leave 5 minutes early?

When authorized by the Signaller/Control


Qs. If a train is booked to "set down only" is this listed in the timetable ? If said train sets down and all passengers alight can it then depart ahead of schedule ? What about if it was pick up only and no passengers were on the platform ?

Although I have a WTT schedule when calling at Waterloo East I am specifically instructed not to wait and to CD once station duties are complete. Are there any other stations with something similar ?

 

[greatkingrat]

Although I have a WTT schedule when calling at Waterloo East I am specifically instructed not to wait and to CD once station duties are complete. Are there any other stations with something similar ?

I believe I've read here before that up trains at Clapham Junction / Vauxhall to Waterloo can leave as soon as ready.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I meant maybe there were delays on the main line, so maybe the train was permitted to leave early to avoid being delayed at the Junction?

Also, said service was from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction, not the other way around.

There are also four trains an hour (through the majority of the day).



I agree entirely (it's also a 3 platform station, not 2), but I can imagine, and wouldn't be surprised, if ATW pick the OP up on this.

They can try if they like to pick me up on this, but the fact remains, a train departed 5 minutes before its allocated departure time, the train started at Llandudno it wasn't an intermediate station that it just continued on through early.

Llandudno is a small station with no barrier control and at that time of night you just use the a side entrance. I live less than 3 minute drive from the station there is no need to arrive any earlier than I did. there is nothing that could hold me up boarding the train and if something did, I would understand this was my fault and my problem and would not have mentioned it.
Even if there was delay to the service I understand these things happen and am normally pretty easy going with these things and would have just got the next train. But to depart 5 minutes early?

Not really any excuse in my view. I shall let you know in anything up to 10 days which ATW have given themselves to respond!

 

[James268]

And you know this for certain how?

I don't. But it doesn't take much effort to 'follow' the train on realtimetrains. See what platform it arrives on, and then the next departure from that platform within a reasonable layover period and it will almost certainly be the same train.

It's especially easy to track on a quiet line on a saturday evening.

 

[LAX54]

The TRUST lineup says that ALL the other departures all day are xx:08 and just that one is at xx:13 ! easy mistake to make, and easy to see why too !

 

[craigybagel]

I don't. But it doesn't take much effort to 'follow' the train on realtimetrains. See what platform it arrives on, and then the next departure from that platform within a reasonable layover period and it will almost certainly be the same train.

It's especially easy to track on a quiet line on a saturday evening.

I don't disagree with any of that. However, what I do disagree with is:

The early running was due to human error.


The driver and guard assumed this service was the same. (it doesn't appear to be the same crew working the shuttles. The services seem to go LLD>LLJ>LLD>MAN)
The driver and guard assumed this service was the same.

You don't know any of that for certain. You are making assumptions yourself, both about the train crews diagrams and that they are the ones who made the error.

There are diagrams where crews make repeated trips on the shuttles whilst a different crew works the train to and from Chester and beyond. There are also times when train crews are given incorrect diagrams (last week for example my diagram had me being relieved and starting my PNB whilst I was still 10 miles away from the station in question). Whilst it is a strong possibility that what you say is what happened here, you do not have anywhere near enough grounds to make an absolute declaration of fault.

 

[TEW]

I believe I've read here before that up trains at Clapham Junction / Vauxhall to Waterloo can leave as soon as ready.

Since SWT changed the PIS systems to a 'countdown' style in the Inner London area I believe trains are permitted to leave as soon as ready when heading towards London throughout. It certainly makes sense on busy sections of track where trains are frequent, and all have the same stopping pattern. An on time train waiting time at intermediate stations may further delay a late running train behind.

 

[James268]

The early running was due to human error.

Going through realtimetrains, the previous 5 Junction shuttles leave at xx:08, and so does the one after, at 20:08.

The driver and guard assumed this service was the same. (it doesn't appear to be the same crew working the shuttles. The services seem to go LLD>LLJ>LLD>MAN)

I don't disagree with any of that. However, what I do disagree with is:



You don't know any of that for certain. You are making assumptions yourself, both about the train crews diagrams and that they are the ones who made the error.

There are diagrams where crews make repeated trips on the shuttles whilst a different crew works the train to and from Chester and beyond. There are also times when train crews are given incorrect diagrams (last week for example my diagram had me being relieved and starting my PNB whilst I was still 10 miles away from the station in question). Whilst it is a strong possibility that what you say is what happened here, you do not have anywhere near enough grounds to make an absolute declaration of fault.

I know i'm assuming, I said so in the original post (key words are bolded). No-where did I say this was 100% accurate.

If it was the same crew working the shuttles, it makes more of an explanation of the early running being due to human error from doing the same journey back and forth, and then one timing being slightly later.

The word 'if' has been bolded, to avoid any confusion

 

[berneyarms]

I know i'm assuming, I said so in the original post (key words are bolded). No-where did I say this was 100% accurate.

If it was the same crew working the shuttles, it makes more of an explanation of the early running being due to human error from doing the same journey back and forth, and then one timing being slightly later.

The word 'if' has been bolded, to avoid any confusion

To be fair - the opening line of your post that you quoted above certainly comes across as a very definite statement that it was human error - it's only later in the post that you added the element of doubt, and even then it sounds like you know they made an error!

It might be worth editing it or just accepting that perhaps it could have been phrased better!

 

[craigybagel]

I know i'm assuming, I said so in the original post (key words are bolded). No-where did I say this was 100% accurate.

But as Berney Arms says, you did sound pretty certain. I shall use bold as well.

The early running was due to human error.
Going through realtimetrains, the previous 5 Junction shuttles leave at xx:08, and so does the one after, at 20:08.

The driver and guard assumed this service was the same. (it doesn't appear to be the same crew working the shuttles. The services seem to go LLD>LLJ>LLD>MAN)

I'll accept that there's always going to be speculation on this site but declaring definite guilt without proof is surely unfair?

 

[James268]

The first part of my post, explaining why the train ran early could've been made more of an educated guess, and less of a statement.

There could probably be many reasons as to why it ran early, but with the way the timetable is laid out (xx:08 for 5 hours, then 19:13 then 20:08), and the OPs service left at 19:08, the most probable cause was human error.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Mainline services calling at Clapham in the up direction depart when ready. I sometimes work the 0030 Eastleigh-Portsmouth which is set down only from Hedge End onwards and we depart when ready at all stations except Eastleigh.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Just a quick update on the reply from ATW on the reason for the early departure as I said I would report back.

"It was very disappointing to hear of the early departure of the 19:13 service from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction on March 7th and I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you. It appears this was an instance of human error and appropriate action is already being taken by the conductor management team for North Wales to ensure that this does not happen again.



So that I can look further in to this and assess what level of compensation you may be entitled to, please can you provide me with a copy of your tickets and a postal address? You can either email this information to me or, if you prefer, you can send this to our freepost address as follows"

I advised ATW that the ticket barrier at Liverpool had retained my ticket and was yesterday received a £11.40 (half the return cost) travel voucher as a gesture of good will. Which I'm informed wouldn't normally happen without a ticket as proof.

So a fair outcome and as expected just human error was the reason. Good to hear action is being taken to stop it happening again. Although I'm not sure what more they can do bar ensuring the conductor checks his timetable sheet and information sign with clock on the platform which I would assume they are meant to do anyway.

 

[Deepgreen]

My FGW North Downs line train this morning was approaching Redhill when the guard proudly announced that we were arriving 2 and a half minutes early. He should not have been proud, though, as this was partly because we left the previous two stations early!