Mid-Cheshire Line Post-December 2017 Timetable

[northwichcat]

The current mid-Cheshire service to Stockport is very useful for catching London and other connections; missing it out would cause more problems than it solves.

I think a lot of journeys are made via big cities which don't need to be. However, unless you build an interchange station between East Didsbury and Gatley then I can't see Altrincham-Sheffield having any viability.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think a lot of journeys are made via big cities which don't need to be. However, unless you build an interchange station between East Didsbury and Gatley then I can't see Altrincham-Sheffield having any viability.

Gets his large scale map out of the area covering East Didsbury and Gatley, noting the existing good-quality housing in both areas, the River Mersey (and the flood relief conditions appertaining to it), the two railway lines that pass under the Styal line in that area, the motorway splitting of M56 and M60 that runs under the Styal line, the railway embankments that already exist and wonders where exactly this interchange will be situated and how the existing road traffic plan to serve such an interchange will be affected by such a proposal.

 

[northwichcat]

Gets his large scale map out of the area covering East Didsbury and Gatley, noting the existing good-quality housing in both areas, the River Mersey (and the flood relief conditions appertaining to it), the two railway lines that pass under the Styal line in that area, the motorway splitting of M56 and M60 that runs under the Styal line, the railway embankments that already exist and wonders where exactly this interchange will be situated and how the existing road traffic plan to serve such an interchange will be affected by such a proposal.

I was saying that idea wouldn't be viable except maybe if an interchange station could be built, not that it would be possible to build an interchange station.

 

[Philip]

Not necessarily an hourly service between Sheffield and Chester, but perhaps a similar service to that of Manchester to Windermere and Barrow with some token services in the peak time. Possibly even extending to North Wales. Have to admit it's a shame seeing a former intercity route only being used by good trains.

 

[johnnychips]

Have to admit it's a shame seeing a former intercity route only being used by good trains.

...as opposed to bad trains?

 

[Philip C]

Even in the railway heyday of the early 20th century I don't think there were ever direct services between Chester and Sheffield. The only passenger trains that used the west to south chord at Cheadle Heath, which now forms part of the freight line, were Midland expresses from Liverpool Central to the South, via Warrington Central, Glazebrook, Millers Dale and Matlock.

My 1967/68 London Midland Timetable (Tables 115 & 75) shows an 0935 Sheffield Mid to Llandudno Summer Sats service calling at Cheadle Heath at 1046 and next at Prestatyn at 1238. There is a return working. I had always assumed that these would have run via the South to West chord at Cheadle Heath and then, presumably Warrington Arpley. When I previously posted a reference to this service, a couple of years ago, I think this routeing was confirmed by other members.

I'm not sure whether this quite establishes the existence of direct services between Sheffield and Chester or not, but I'd be very surprised if there had never been a train which stopped at Chester General en route to North Wales from Sheffield Midland.

Given that the Great Central was part owner of the Cheshire Lines Committee there is also the possibility of through services between Chester Northgate and Sheffield Victoria via Manchester Central or Stockport Tiviot Dale. However I have no recollection of ever having come across such a service in the literature. Unless someone comes up with a reference to such a service, I'll have a dig in the archives myself when time permits.

 

[Philip]

...as opposed to bad trains?

Ah oops... Well I guess anything pulled by a loco can be called a good train!

 

[Greybeard33]

My 1967/68 London Midland Timetable (Tables 115 & 75) shows an 0935 Sheffield Mid to Llandudno Summer Sats service calling at Cheadle Heath at 1046 and next at Prestatyn at 1238. There is a return working. I had always assumed that these would have run via the South to West chord at Cheadle Heath and then, presumably Warrington Arpley. When I previously posted a reference to this service, a couple of years ago, I think this routeing was confirmed by other members.

I'm not sure whether this quite establishes the existence of direct services between Sheffield and Chester or not, but I'd be very surprised if there had never been a train which stopped at Chester General en route to North Wales from Sheffield Midland.

Given that the Great Central was part owner of the Cheshire Lines Committee there is also the possibility of through services between Chester Northgate and Sheffield Victoria via Manchester Central or Stockport Tiviot Dale. However I have no recollection of ever having come across such a service in the literature. Unless someone comes up with a reference to such a service, I'll have a dig in the archives myself when time permits.

Yes, agreed it was feasible to run direct services, either between Midland and General via Cheadle Heath and Arpley or between Victoria and Northgate via Godley, Tiviot Dale and Northwich. But originally you were suggesting a regular service, not just an occasional seaside excursion that might have stopped at Chester en route. The issue is whether it is/was commercially viable to run a service between Sheffield (pop. 518000) and Chester (pop. only 84000) while missing out Manchester (pop. 510000).

I doubt that there have ever been regular Sheffield to Chester services through Manchester either. Central was a terminal station, and I believe the South Junction line between Oxford Road and London Road/Piccadilly was only used by local and freight trains prior to the construction of the Windsor Link, Metrolink and Airport station in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

 

[northwichcat]

From what I understand the Mid-Cheshire line did used to see regular services from Wrexham to Manchester Central. There was also an Altrincham to Marple service at one point (via the now closed Stockport-Marple line), as well as services on the closed line between Timperley and Glazebrook, the freight only line between Northwich and Sandbach as well as a closed line from Cuddington to Winsford Over.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Were there many services that passed through Helsby & Alvanley station ?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Were there many services that passed through Helsby & Alvanley station ?

None that I know of since 1875.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

None that I know of since 1875.

It did reopen for workmens trains in October 1936 and as late as October 1963, there was a 1720 departure from this station to Rock Ferry.

 

[Philip C]

But originally you were suggesting a regular service.......

I doubt that there have ever been regular Sheffield to Chester services through Manchester either. Central was a terminal station..........

I think you are confusing me (Philip C) with another poster (Philip). I was merely responding to your posting (#25) in the terms in which it was written.

As for Manchester Central being a terminal station - yes it was; but many trains reversed there en route between the Woodhead Line and Liverpool Central (on a regular basis and not just on Summer Saturdays either). The North Country Boat Train is a long-term and well known example. In my posting I posed the question as to whether there were also trains reversing there (or running via Tiviot Dale) giving a through service between Chester Northgate and Sheffield. This remains an open question.

I share your view that through trains via Oxford Road are unlikely, but will check the limited number of sources that I have relating to the period between the opening of the CLC Chester Line (1875) and that of Manchester Central (1880). Apart from MSJA services, the LNWR service from the South Junction Platforms at London Road/Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street via Lymm and Ditton Junction was the only service over this route to my recollection (prior to the closure of Central in 1969). To these may be added the limited service to Crewe via Middlewich which pre-dates my experience - but was still running in 1939.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think you are confusing me (Philip C) with another poster (Philip). I was merely responding to your posting (#25) in the terms in which it was written.

As for Manchester Central being a terminal station - yes it was; but many trains reversed there en route between the Woodhead Line and Liverpool Central (on a regular basis and not just on Summer Saturdays either). The North Country Boat Train is a long-term and well known example. In my posting I posed the question as to whether there were also trains reversing there (or running via Tiviot Dale) giving a through service between Chester Northgate and Sheffield. This remains an open question.

I share your view that through trains via Oxford Road are unlikely, but will check the limited number of sources that I have relating to the period between the opening of the CLC Chester Line (1875) and that of Manchester Central (1880). Apart from MSJA services, the LNWR service from the South Junction Platforms at London Road/Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street via Lymm and Ditton Junction was the only service over this route to my recollection (prior to the closure of Central in 1969). To these may be added the limited service to Crewe via Middlewich which pre-dates my experience - but was still running in 1939.

Philip C, my apologies for confusing you with Philip, and thanks for the interesting information. I guess trains from the Woodhead would have used the Fallowfield Loop to get from Guide Bridge to Central.

According to Wikipedia, the Altrincham Electrics were cut back to Oxford Road from 1958, and suburban services from the Styal and Stockport lines then began running through Piccadilly to Oxford Road. After conversion of the MSJA to AC electrification in 1971, some Altrincham services ran through Oxford Road to Alderley Edge/Crewe, and to Hazel Grove after that line was electrified in 1981. This continued until the Altrincham to Cornbrook section was converted to Metrolink in 1991.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Even in the railway heyday of the early 20th century I don't think there were ever direct services between Chester and Sheffield. The only passenger trains that used the west to south chord at Cheadle Heath, which now forms part of the freight line, were Midland expresses from Liverpool Central to the South, via Warrington Central, Glazebrook, Millers Dale and Matlock.

It might have been possible to get from Chester Northgate to Sheffield Victoria via Woodhead without going through Manchester, by changing twice, at Altrincham and then Godley. But very few of the passengers on these three trains would have been making the end-to end journey.

There used to be through trains from Sheffield to North Wales on summer Saturdays up to the 60s.
They ran from Sheffield Midland via the Hope Valley, Cheadle Heath, Northenden, Lymm, Warrington Arpley and Chester, but did not stop before Prestatyn.
There were stupidities like a 45 minute wait at Frodsham Junction in the loop!
There might also have been services from Sheffield Victoria via Woodhead, Godley and Northenden, but I've lost the 1964 working timetable I once had.
In those days there were no passenger services between Altrincham and Stockport (Edgeley or Tiviot Dale).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Philip C, my apologies for confusing you with Philip, and thanks for the interesting information. I guess trains from the Woodhead would have used the Fallowfield Loop to get from Guide Bridge to Central.

Was Reddish depot where the Class 76 were to be found situated upon the line of the Fallowfield Loop Line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There used to be through trains from Sheffield to North Wales on summer Saturdays up to the 60s.
They ran from Sheffield Midland via the Hope Valley, Cheadle Heath, Northenden, Lymm, Warrington Arpley and Chester, but did not stop before Prestatyn.
There were stupidities like a 45 minute wait at Frodsham Junction in the loop!
There might also have been services from Sheffield Victoria via Woodhead, Godley and Northenden, but I've lost the 1964 working timetable I once had.
In those days there were no passenger services between Altrincham and Stockport (Edgeley or Tiviot Dale).

Were there in the days of the pre-1923 grouping, trains running from Liverpool that stopped at West Timperley station and carried onwards via Godley and Sheffield to a London terminal?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Was Reddish depot where the Class 76 were to be found situated upon the line of the Fallowfield Loop Line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Correct, up until it's demise in I think 1983, also home to the larger class 77 until they went to the Netherlands, class 506 EMUs and Blue Pullman units.

 

[Greybeard33]

In those days there were no passenger services between Altrincham and Stockport (Edgeley or Tiviot Dale).

Yes, it depends how far back you go. The Wikipedia entry for Northenden station claims that:

The weekday westbound CLC local train service in July 1922 comprised four trains to Warrington or Liverpool and five to Altrincham. By August 1946, the service to Altrincham had ceased and just four passenger trains per weekday ran to Warrington Central and Liverpool Central. The January 1956 passenger service was at the same sparse level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenden_railway_station

The entry for Baguley station adds that:

For most of the station's existence, the passenger trains were hauled by steam locomotives, but for a period up to the beginning of the Second World War, the services from Stockport and Baguley to Altrincham were performed by the CLC's Sentinel steam railcars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguley_railway_station. So it seems that the service between Tiviot Dale and Altrincham was a casualty of the 1939-45 war.

The Disused Stations page for Cheadle (CLC) has a timetable of the July 1922 departures, with five trains to Altrincham and the return workings to Tiviot Dale. The Disused Stations page for Tiviot Dale has an image of a December 1906 ticket to Altrincham.

I suspect that the present day 2tph service between Chester and Sheffield, with alternate services requiring changes either at Crewe and Stockport or just at Stockport, is as good as or better than any in pre-privatisation days?

 

[Philip C]

I share your view that through trains via Oxford Road are unlikely, but will check the limited number of sources that I have relating to the period between the opening of the CLC Chester Line (1875) and that of Manchester Central (1880). Apart from MSJA services, the LNWR service from the South Junction Platforms at London Road/Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street via Lymm and Ditton Junction was the only service over this route to my recollection (prior to the closure of Central in 1969). To these may be added the limited service to Crewe via Middlewich which pre-dates my experience - but was still running in 1939.

On checking I've made an error.

The service to Crewe via Middlewich in 1922 comprised one Monday to Friday train conveying through carriage(s) between Oxford Road and Euston (though the timings suggest that the train continued in service to London Road northbound). Northbound this was attached to the 230pm 'Liverpool Express' from Euston which also conveyed through carriages to Southport and reached London Road at 712pm. The up working left Oxford Road at 1030am reaching Euston at 310pm having joined the 1105am from Liverpool which also conveyed through carriages from "Central Wales Spas and Aberystwyth". These appear to have originated at Llandovery 855am and Aberystwyth 800am; combined at Shrewsbury and with the Liverpool/Oxford Road portion at Stafford via Newport (Salop). This information from the Bradshaws for July 1922 (reprinted by D&C in 1985).

The LNWR Society had the good sense to reprint the LNWR Marshalling Circular for Summer 1910 (in 1978) and this provides more fascinating detail. At this time the down working left Euston at 2pm (there was also a connection at Crewe to Oxford Road via Middlewich off the 530pm ex Euston). The 2pm departure was the "Glasgow, Edinburgh & Aberdeen Corridor, Luncheon & Dining Car Express" and also conveyed a "Furness Line" portion. This left Euston with a four-coach portion for Glasgow behind the loco comprising a Brake Third (Brake compartment leading), a Compo. Dining Car, a Composite and a Break Third (Brake compartment trailing). Then came the three-coach Edinburgh portion led by a Compo. Dining Car, then a Composite and lastly a Brake Third (Brake compartment trailing). A Brake Composite with Brake compartment trailing comprised the Aberdeen through carriage. These eight coaches for Scotland were all down to be 65ft West Coast Joint Stock (dual-fitted) coaches. Next came a 57ft Brake Composite with a Brake Compartment at each end (have a look at the LNWR Society web-site if you haven't got a copy of Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages book to hand: Diagram 205 might be the one) for Whitehaven and, finally, our through coach (length unspecified) which was down to be a Brake Tri-Composite (with brake compartment in centre). Interestingly there is a footnote stating that when the Scotch train is too heavy (ie. has been strengthened to such an effect) then our through carriage will instead leave Euston at 206pm and be attached to the 220pm from Willesden (which conveys carriages from Bournemouth, Deal and Eastbourne to Manchester, also Eastbourne to Liverpool and Eastbourne to Birmingham - but a whole other story!) at Willesden. When this occurs our brake tri-composite will go at the head of the train (perhaps the 206pm would otherwise have been a Light Engine from Euston to take over at Willesden?) but with a 'leader' (presumably something like a parcels vehicle) between it and the loco. In either case it escapes from its companions at Crewe. An equally interesting arrangement applied to the up working.

Other trains between Northwich & Sandbach appear to be locals, often Rail Motors (Push & Pull?) with some through running to/from Acton Bridge. In the summer of 1939 there was even an 805am Summer Saturdays train from Sandbach to Blackpool North by this route.

My mistake was in saying that the through service to Oxford Road was still running in 1939. It appears to have been withdrawn in the Autumn of 1933 (see page 32 of the 1973 edition of the Oakwood book on the MSJA). This book also records an interesting service that I'd totally forgotten: From December 1st 1879 until withdrawal from March 20th 1880 there was a service from Manchester Central to London Road via Sale, Baguley and Tiviot Dale. This used the seriously long gone north to east curve south of Timperley and, if memory of another source is correct, the not quite so long gone curve from Tiviot Dale to Reddish North rather than the route through Woodley and Guide Bridge (but I could be wrong on that bit).

Also I now know that whilst Central opened in 1880 there was a temporary station there from July 9th 1877 and Chester Line services switched to it (vice Oxford Road) from July 1st 1878; the permanent station opening exactly two years later.

Finally in putting these snippets together I've consulted the April 1910 Bradshaws, a very big purchase for me from the old Sherratt & Hughes bookshop in Cross Street Manchester (did it also have an entrance in St Ann's Square or is memory failing?) in 1968 (84 shillings!). Alongside the times of the through coaches via Knutsford from Euston I noticed the other through service between Oxford Road and Euston (running in the opposite direction too) that is the one between Bolton Great Moor Street and Euston.

Anybody got a spare time machine?

 

[Altfish]

The entry for Baguley station adds that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguley_railway_station. So it seems that the service between Tiviot Dale and Altrincham was a casualty of the 1939-45 war.

My granddad used to always refer to this service as the "Baguley Bus"

 

[Greybeard33]

....

Anybody got a spare time machine?

Thanks for all the fascinating historic detail. Portion working in those days makes splitting a couple of multiple units seem like child's play!

 

[Philip]

This also begs the question would splitting trains at Altrincham be easy? If there is to be a Sheffield service from Chester then perhaps a better idea would be to run it as a potion train with the current and soon-to-be semi-fast service from Chester to Manchester, so as not to use extra paths. Northern could even throw it into the North West express brand and use 158s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it would be a good idea to go a bit further with my suggestion.

Chester-Manchester and Sheffield could be an express service calling at Northwich and Knutsford only to Altrincham. Then, in addition to the proposed Manchester-Northwich stopping service, an hourly all stops Chester to Northwich can run, with the service then continuing to Crewe via Middlewich, preferably calling at a reopened Middlewich station and Sandbach.

 

[Greybeard33]

This also begs the question would splitting trains at Altrincham be easy? If there is to be a Sheffield service from Chester then perhaps a better idea would be to run it as a potion train with the current and soon-to-be semi-fast service from Chester to Manchester, so as not to use extra paths. Northern could even throw it into the North West express brand and use 158s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it would be a good idea to go a bit further with my suggestion.

Chester-Manchester and Sheffield could be an express service calling at Northwich and Knutsford only to Altrincham. Then, in addition to the proposed Manchester-Northwich stopping service, an hourly all stops Chester to Northwich can run, with the service then continuing to Crewe via Middlewich, preferably calling at a reopened Middlewich station and Sandbach.

I think it is highly unlikely that your proposed Chester to Sheffield direct service would be granted one of the precious paths on the congested Hope Valley line between Chinley and Dore. But even if it was, how would you justify the subsidy required? The only new farebox revenue it would generate would be from any new passengers, who would not otherwise use the existing indirect services. Since currently there are good connections at Stockport to the fast TPE/EMT services to Sheffield, there would be little if any saving in journey time. How many new passengers do you estimate there would be on each direct train, on average?

 

[Philip]

I think it is highly unlikely that your proposed Chester to Sheffield direct service would be granted one of the precious paths on the congested Hope Valley line between Chinley and Dore. But even if it was, how would you justify the subsidy required? The only new farebox revenue it would generate would be from any new passengers, who would not otherwise use the existing indirect services. Since currently there are good connections at Stockport to the fast TPE/EMT services to Sheffield, there would be little if any saving in journey time. How many new passengers do you estimate there would be on each direct train, on average?

I can't give exact figures but we're talking about a major city in the North which is currently not directly connected to one of the biggest tourist centres in the North, albeit some 70 miles or so apart. Leeds is soon to get a direct service to Chester so why not Sheffield as well? Is there any more of a case for direct services between Sheffield and Bridlington for example than for Sheffield to Chester?

I also know from my job that a fair number of commuters travel from places around the Knutsford, Altrincham and Wilmslow areas to Sheffield so with regular fast services from Altrincham there's a market to appeal to there. Changing at Stockport currently isn't that good - people getting off the train from Chester have to wait 25 minutes before the Norwich service comes in and that's if it isn't diverted via Marple!

 

[edwin_m]

I can't give exact figures but we're talking about a major city in the North which is currently not directly connected to one of the biggest tourist centres in the North, albeit some 70 miles or so apart. Leeds is soon to get a direct service to Chester so why not Sheffield as well? Is there any more of a case for direct services between Sheffield and Bridlington for example than for Sheffield to Chester?

I also know from my job that a fair number of commuters travel from places around the Knutsford, Altrincham and Wilmslow areas to Sheffield so with regular fast services from Altrincham there's a market to appeal to there. Changing at Stockport currently isn't that good - people getting off the train from Chester have to wait 25 minutes before the Norwich service comes in and that's if it isn't diverted via Marple!

The Leeds-Chester service calls at Bradford, Manchester and various other places, so should carry a reasonable number of people even though not very many will be doing the full journey. A Sheffield-Chester service would not call at any major city in between.

I change between Sheffield and Chester services at Stockport every two or three weeks, though mainly off-peak, and I would say about five people do the same thing. Give them the benefit of the doubt and increase it to ten, then double it for a through service instead of a connection, and you're still way short of the sort of numbers that would justify running a train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then, in addition to the proposed Manchester-Northwich stopping service, an hourly all stops Chester to Northwich can run, with the service then continuing to Crewe via Middlewich, preferably calling at a reopened Middlewich station and Sandbach.

What speed restrictions currently apply on the Middlewich line?

 

[Philip]

What speed restrictions currently apply on the Middlewich line?

Last time I went on it in the late 2000s it was 20mph maximum IIRC. I'm sure this could be improved. Ideally there should be a North East-South West chord at Sandbach to allow services from Manchester to use the line without needing to reverse.

 

[Greybeard33]

I also know from my job that a fair number of commuters travel from places around the Knutsford, Altrincham and Wilmslow areas to Sheffield so with regular fast services from Altrincham there's a market to appeal to there. Changing at Stockport currently isn't that good - people getting off the train from Chester have to wait 25 minutes before the Norwich service comes in and that's if it isn't diverted via Marple!

What day of the week/time of day do you travel? The normal weekday service gives a 12 minute connection time at Stockport - arr. xx16 on Northern service from Chester, dep. xx28 on the TPE Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service, typical journey time about 2h10 from Chester to Sheffield. Or travelling by Virgin from Chester to Stockport, total journey time is under two hours - 17 min connection at Crewe from the Euston to the Piccadilly train, then 18 min at Stockport to the EMT Norwich service.

 

[Philip]

Sorry I'm getting the northbound train mixed up with the xx:29 Stockport to Chester. Yes it's a good connection. However to respond as well to the post above an improved direct service could persuade more people to stop driving and take the train instead. You could also argue that a lot of Sheffield passenger from the Mid-Cheshire points take the tram into Manchester and get the train from there. It would also give improved connections to Holyhead and Ireland which may be popular. I'm not saying it'd be a guaranteed success but I think there's more of a case for this than you're giving - it would open up better connections to various places not just between the two points.

 

[edwin_m]

What day of the week/time of day do you travel? The normal weekday service gives a 12 minute connection time at Stockport - arr. xx16 on Northern service from Chester, dep. xx28 on the TPE Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service, typical journey time about 2h10 from Chester to Sheffield. Or travelling by Virgin from Chester to Stockport, total journey time is under two hours - 17 min connection at Crewe from the Euston to the Piccadilly train, then 18 min at Stockport to the EMT Norwich service.

Last time I travelled to Chester there was a good connection at Manchester from the EMT from Sheffield into the ATW Llandudno service, which was more comfortable and I think also quicker than changing at Stockport. Unfortunately in the other direction it just misses the EMT service and has a wait of 25min or so for the TPE.