Trivia: Journeys that can only be made by using a combination of tickets?

[Flamingo]

I don't think so. Some journeys can only be made by 'splitting'.

For example?

 

[AM9]

For example?

Most journeys from LU-only stations to distant main-line stops well outside the TfL zones. Similarly from stations within many PTE areas.
That raises the possibility of a journey from a LU-only station to one of the northern PTE -only stops requiring three tickets.

 

[Flamingo]

Most journeys from LU-only stations to distant main-line stops well outside the TfL zones. Similarly from stations within many PTE areas.
That raises the possibility of a journey from a LU-only station to one of the northern PTE -only stops requiring three tickets.

Surely that's just a zone X to Y?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Wilmslow to Eccles/Patricroft.

 

[Flamingo]

I can hear the sound of routing guides being thumbed up and down the country as I type this to find examples.

Seriously, are there any day-to-day journeys that somebody might make on their trip to work or to visit their mum that require a split, and what is the route and splitting point? I'm genuinely interested to know how widespread this is, and how much of a problem it would be to passengers who are not trying to increase their track miles or travel on a particular numbered unit...

 

[Bletchleyite]

As noted above there indeed appear to be no fares from Wilmslow to Patricroft/Eccles. An odd omission!

Neil

 

[yorkie]

I hope you don't mind but I've moved this to a new thread as there are a lot of journey opportunities for which "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" (to use the exact wording used by NRE).

There are, perhaps, several categories.

Firstly, I'm not sure of the benefit of listing specific examples, but there are many journey opportunities which require more than one ticket if made at a time when the last trains via permitted routes have already departed, or when the permitted routes have infrequent services. This can occur almost anywhere.

Secondly, and similar to the above, again I'm not sure of the benefit of listing specific examples, but there are a not insignificant number of flows which require more than one ticket if made by the fastest route.

Thirdly, again specific examples may not be warranted but passengers wishing to book in advance are encouraged to use Advance fares, which are not available for some flows, particularly - but not exclusively - on flows involving more than one operator. Some Train Companies (notably First TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains) encourage the use of such ticket combinations. I'm sure this isn't what Flamingo meant but is an example of where the passenger wishes to travel in accordance with what a Train Company recommends and that's a fairly significant factor, I believe.

Fourthly, there are journeys for which no through fare exists for travel via the shortest route, examples include:

• Adwick (and other nearby stations) to Manchester
• Chinley (home of Chapeltom) to Blythe Bridge (home of Baxenden Bank) - the route you are required to take is around 30 miles longer!

There are more examples, but I don't have them to hand right now.

And finally, there are journeys for which there is no through fare whatsoever. Examples include:

• Poynton (home of 323235) to Hadfield
• (more to follow, and as I was typing this, I see some examples have been posted)

 

[nag67]

Another example is where there is a second class fare, but no first class fare, even where 1st accommodation is available.

One example is Liverpool to Derby, with 1st accommodation available on TPE via Manchester to Sheffield, then on XC to Derby. There is no 1st class fare other than a season. A split is required at Sheffield.

 

[bb21]

Most journeys from LU-only stations to distant main-line stops well outside the TfL zones. Similarly from stations within many PTE areas.
That raises the possibility of a journey from a LU-only station to one of the northern PTE -only stops requiring three tickets.

Through tickets should be available from all LU stations, if necessary by the use of U-zone fares.

I don't know what PTE station you have in mind but all National Rail stations should have through fares to other National Rail stations, especially London Terminals. If not, then that is a big error.

The "have to split" problem should not be one concerning origin-destination combinations, as there should always be through fares (but with some exceptions occasionally, usually erroneously). It is mainly a problem with certain reasonable/permitted routes not being permitted on the through fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another example is where there is a second class fare, but no first class fare, even where 1st accommodation is available.

One example is Liverpool to Derby, with 1st accommodation available on TPE via Manchester to Sheffield, then on XC to Derby. There is no 1st class fare other than a season. A split is required at Sheffield.

Has the ability to calculate a First Anytime from the Standard Anytime gone now? There used to be one, though I forget the multiplier, was it 1.8?

There are still similar concepts - if there's no "via London" season for a given journey within the former NSE area, it can be calculated as (outboundary 1-6 Travelcard from origin) + (outboundary 1-6 Travelcard from destination) - (1-6 Travelcard season), and then added to the system. I think I was responsible for this being added for Milton Keynes C-Slough.

Neil

 

[bb21]

The multiplier no longer applies, as different TOCs used different ones, some as high as 2.2, such as XC, but many 1.7.

The only case where it is still clearly defined is inboundary Travelcard seasons AFAIK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Whilst not really answering the trivia question, it is surprising the amount of people I have met who believe splits are actually required (ie a ticket from their small station to the nearest big station, and then a ticket from there to their destination).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

it is surprising the amount of people I have met who believe splits are actually required (ie a ticket from their small station to the nearest big station, and then a ticket from there to their destination).

I have a dim memory that back in the 1960s, it was one of British Rail's rationalisations that at stations served only by local trains, Branch lines and particularly on "pay trains", there was only a limited range of tickets, limited to perhaps the local area and direct destinations on the connecting main line.

If you are considering a leisure journey involving a change of train or two, then breaking the journey into one train = one ticket is one of the more obvious ways of looking for splits, at the very least it may flush out the availability of Advance fares for part of the journey.

 

[yorkie]

... particularly on "pay trains", there was only a limited range of tickets,.....

True, see the Paytrains thread.

And much more recently let's not forget Arriva wants to end national ticketing! So Arriva are clearly in favour of "split ticketing".

 

[thebigcheese]

Northfleet (NFL) to Ebbsfleet International (EBD) ? You'd have to split at Gravesend.

 

[bb21]

Northfleet (NFL) to Ebbsfleet International (EBD) ? You'd have to split at Gravesend.

Is it ever quicker than walking?

 

[yorkie]

Northfleet (NFL) to Ebbsfleet International (EBD) ? You'd have to split at Gravesend.

To be fair that's not a journey anyone is actually likely to make by rail. There are many better examples, I'm sure!

 

[thebigcheese]

No one said it had to be a realistic journey

Ok Falkirk High (FKK) to Boundary Zone 6 (0072)

 

[bb21]

How do you make a journey to Boundary Zone 6?

 

[Searle]

How do you make a journey to Boundary Zone 6?

Jump out the window as you pass under the M25?

 

[lyndhurst25]

I know it only has trains on Saturdays, but Brigg is missing through fares to Market Rasen, Lincoln and Rotherham, amongst other places.

 

[FenMan]

Andover to Blackwater

The fastest route via Woking and Guildford (saving up to 25 minutes compared with the permitted route via Basingstoke and Reading) is not permitted, so two tickets are needed.

 

[Haywain]

And much more recently let's not forget Arriva wants to end national ticketing! So Arriva are clearly in favour of "split ticketing".

I'm not sure that you can conclude that a wish to end national ticketing means they are in favour of split ticketing. I think it should be read as meaning that they also wish to end being bound by the National Conditions of Carriage, which would mean that separate (rather than split) ticketing would come into play without any associated rights from NRCoC.

 

[Flamingo]

No one said it had to be a realistic journey

Err.... I did...

 

[Clip]

I hope you don't mind but I've moved this to a new thread as there are a lot of journey opportunities for which "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" (to use the exact wording used by NRE).

There are, perhaps, several categories.

Firstly, I'm not sure of the benefit of listing specific examples,

no lets just find out because Im intrigued also by this. For some fares as already
demonstrated by other posts you just wouldnt take the train to do so so understandably they dont have a fare for them.

Not bad though in over 4 hours of Flamingo posting but many views this thread happens to be thin on the ground.

 

[crehld]

no lets just find out because Im intrigued also by this. For some fares as already
demonstrated by other posts you just wouldnt take the train to do so so understandably they dont have a fare for them.

Not bad though in over 4 hours of Flamingo posting but many views this thread happens to be thin on the ground.

Wilmslow to Eccles is certainly a journey one might decided to take by train - indeed for Flamingo's benefit, my mum lives in Eccles! I'm guessing the absense of fares for this journey must be some sort of massive error in the system? But in the mean time I guess one would have to split at Manchester.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The best example is for stations from Watford Junction to Park Street (inclusive) to stations on the Thameslink route.

 

[pne]

shortest [/B]route, examples include:

• Adwick (and other nearby stations) to Manchester
• Chinley (home of Chapeltom) to Blythe Bridge (home of Baxenden Bank) - the route you are required to take is around 30 miles longer!

There are more examples, but I don't have them to hand right now.

But you can use the tickets to travel on the shortest route, can't you?

For example, the Chinley to Blythe Bridge direct tickets are all routed VIA DERBY, but do tickets not always permit you to travel via the shortest route?

Or is that only a consideration for route ANY PERMITTED?

 

[cool110]

Or is that only a consideration for route ANY PERMITTED?

Yes, route restrictions override the direct train and shortest route rules

Another set would be from an LU station to a Metrolink stop which would require oyster/travelcard/LU single + London Terminals - destination or U Zone - Manchester Stations + City Zone - destination.

 

[bb21]

Yes, route restrictions override the direct train and shortest route rules

Another set would be from an LU station to a Metrolink stop which would require oyster/travelcard/LU single + London Terminals - destination or U Zone - Manchester Stations + City Zone - destination.

U zone fares and Metrolink fares are simply add-ons to the National Rail fare, so there is no reason why a ticket cannot be issued from ZONE U123* LONDN to ECCLES MTLK, for example.