Court Case for Train Fare

[michaelpjdaly]

Hello, so I received a court fine notice to my new address up in Liverpool from a train fare – apparently bunked – in Portsmouth and they’re taking me to court. I’ve never been to Portsmouth in my life and at the time of this alleged offence I was living in a shared house. I guess someone used my name. I need to write to the train company, PO BOX Southampton SO15 to ask what evidence they have.

Is the burden of proof on them? Can I ask they provide evidence of the person who committed the offence? The person I suspect probably gave my name from that house is a 6 foot man of a different ethnic origin to myself, and I am only 5 foot 8 ish. I know for a fact it wasn’t me but I can only think he would do such a thing as he knew my name etc. from the house.

What defence can I have if I can’t prove where I was? It was all the way back in January 2011 and I’m just hearing of this. I’ve entered a plea of not guilty but they want me in London for a trial and everything.

Any advice on what I should put in the letter I write to the train company?

Thanks.

 

[londonboi]

Is it possible on the day of the offence you made any withdrawals from your bank account is cash machine etc that would show your location etc. If so could you get a bank statement showing transactions for that day. Just a rough though. I am sure the much more knowledgeable people be along shortly with a possible better soloution

 

[Agent_c]

Is it a letter from the court, or the TOC? If it's from the court, does it say that you owe that fine?

If it is from the court and says you owe the fine, it looks like then the case has already been heard, and lost probably due to non appearance.

You need to speak to a solicitor and get them to apply to the court vacate the verdict.

If it's from the TOC then that's diffeeent.

Can you upload the letter?

 

[michaelpjdaly]

Is it a letter from the court, or the TOC? If it's from the court, does it say that you owe that fine?

If it is from the court and says you owe the fine, it looks like then the case has already been heard, and lost probably due to non appearance.

You need to speak to a solicitor and get them to apply to the court vacate the verdict.

If it's from the TOC then that's diffeeent.

Can you upload the letter?

Hi, thanks for replying. It's from the court. There is a hearing on 10th March and I've been advised to ask the court to excuse me from proceedings - in London - as I can't get there.

I will upload the letter later yes thank you.

I’m also writing to the TOC to ask what evidence they have, as I know it isn’t me.

I think it has been heard, but they are asking me to appear on the 10th – I know you may say I should go but I don’t have the money to get there, at all, and I can’t borrow it. I’m out of work at the moment and just waiting on my Universal Credit to come through – tough times, had a job not too long ago and currently volunteering.

It’s madness, from 2011!?

So is the BOP on them then? As it’s criminal isn’t it if it’s from the court? Not civil anymore?

 

[ainsworth74]

When you up load the letter please ensure your remove any personal details (address and so on) for you own safety as this is a publicly viewable forum

 

[Agent_c]

Whether or not a court is involved doesn't change an issue being civil or criminal. A criminal case is always a criminal case, even if resolved without a court. A civil case is always a civil case even a court is involved. Its possible for one situation to result in both a civil and criminal case, and for them both to end up in court.

If you are being prosecuted in a criminal case, then its up to the TOC that you are guilty of whatever crime they're accusing you of. There are two possible routes they can take, a lesser offence that just says you travelled without a ticket, and a more serious one that is you travelled without a ticket, and basically intended to defraud them.

In either of these cases it falls to the TOC to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you did whatever it is they're accusing you of.

If its a civil case (The TOC chasing you for an unpaid fare), then the TOC has to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that you owe the debt owed.

I'd really have to read the letter though to see the specifics about what is happening, and at what stage this is.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It would help to know exactly which court the letter was from. If you can't post up a redacted copy, please type in the content. You'll get much better advice.

 

[najaB]

I’ve entered a plea of not guilty but they want me in London for a trial and everything.

Any advice on what I should put in the letter I write to the train company?

If it wasn't you, then write to the train company explaining exactly that - it couldn't have been you on that train, in Portsmouth because on that date you were in another city. It is then up to the TOC to prove that defence invalid.

You do not need to prove anything, but it will help the TOC to realise their mistake if you can provide evidence that were not in Portsmouth on that date/time. It could be as simple as a receipt for a purchase you made that day, or an appointment/meeting that you attended.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If it wasn't you, then write to the train company explaining exactly that - it couldn't have been you on that train, in Portsmouth because on that date you were in another city. It is then up to the TOC to prove that defence invalid.

You do not need to prove anything, but it will help the TOC to realise their mistake if you can provide evidence that were not in Portsmouth on that date/time. It could be as simple as a receipt for a purchase you made that day, or an appointment/meeting that you attended.

NO. We need to see exactly where this in the court system before we give any more advice.

 

[najaB]

NO. We need to see exactly where this in the court system before we give any more advice.

Even if the case has already been heard, there is no harm in letting the TOC know that they have the wrong person.

 

[michaelpjdaly]

If it wasn't you, then write to the train company explaining exactly that - it couldn't have been you on that train, in Portsmouth because on that date you were in another city. It is then up to the TOC to prove that defence invalid.

You do not need to prove anything, but it will help the TOC to realise their mistake if you can provide evidence that were not in Portsmouth on that date/time. It could be as simple as a receipt for a purchase you made that day, or an appointment/meeting that you attended.

Thank you - I did not make any purchases that day or use my card unfortunately, I have looked into that. All I know is I was not in Portsmouth as I have never been there, but can't remember what I was doing.

 

[michaelpjdaly]

Even if the case has already been heard, there is no harm in letting the TOC know that they have the wrong person.

Thanks, I cannot find the letter, but I do have this information:

Statutory Declaration granted in Liverpool Magistrates Court on 25/02/2014 - I knew nothing of this - was staying with a friend at the time.

Hearing date 10/03/2015 - I cannot get to this and have written to the court to tell them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks, I cannot find the letter, but I do have this information:

Statutory Declaration granted in Liverpool Magistrates Court on 25/02/2014 - I knew nothing of this - was staying with a friend at the time.

Hearing date 10/03/2015 - I cannot get to this and have written to the court to tell them.

I was actually told over the phone to email guildfordmcadmin email - which I have done – so I’m assuming this is correct and they deal with Redhill also?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I seem to have lost the original fine letter.

 

[michaelpjdaly]

Thanks, I cannot find the letter, but I do have this information:

Statutory Declaration granted in Liverpool Magistrates Court on 25/02/2014 - I knew nothing of this - was staying with a friend at the time.

Hearing date 10/03/2015 - I cannot get to this and have written to the court to tell them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was actually told over the phone to email guildfordmcadmin email - which I have done – so I’m assuming this is correct and they deal with Redhill also?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I seem to have lost the original fine letter.

This is from HM Courts and Tribunals Service - Liverpool Magistrates.

 

[185]

6 foot man of a different ethnic origin to myself, and I am only 5 foot 8 ish. I know for a fact it wasn’t me but I can only think he would do such a thing as he knew my name etc. from the house.

That alone should have the case thrown straight out. Accurate person descriptions are key to correct reporting of a Travel Irregularity at most operators.

 

[Camden]

That alone should have the case thrown straight out. Accurate person descriptions are key to correct reporting of a Travel Irregularity at most operators.

Facts are only relevant if they are known. So this means 1) the TOC has as evidence and are being asked to produce as evidence the person's description, and 2) the court having the means to know that this does not match the person in question, and this fact being drawn to their attention.

None of which I can imagine happens automatically.

If the original poster does resolve this matter, if it does turn out to have been the person he suspects it to be I hope the OP subsequently ensures the toerag is reported.

 

[Haywain]

Thanks, I cannot find the letter, but I do have this information:

Statutory Declaration granted in Liverpool Magistrates Court on 25/02/2014 - I knew nothing of this - was staying with a friend at the time.

Hearing date 10/03/2015 - I cannot get to this and have written to the court to tell them.

This looks very strange. How can a statutory declaration have been made without you knowing anything about it? Is this other person living at the same place as you now and prone to opening your mail? And then going to the local court to say that you hadn't known anything about the original court case? This is starting to sound rather far fetched to me.

 

[Shempz]

This looks very strange. How can a statutory declaration have been made without you knowing anything about it? Is this other person living at the same place as you now and prone to opening your mail? And then going to the local court to say that you hadn't known anything about the original court case? This is starting to sound rather far fetched to me.

I've never had letter/envelope from the courts, but my guess is they are possibly easy to spot - picture of the crown on them, and maybe even the court name/address written on the envelope (just guessing here)? It would not be too difficult for someone living at the same address to intercept them would it? I know I've house shared with some absolute nutters in the past...and nothing would surprise me!

 

[island]

This looks very strange. How can a statutory declaration have been made without you knowing anything about it? Is this other person living at the same place as you now and prone to opening your mail? And then going to the local court to say that you hadn't known anything about the original court case? This is starting to sound rather far fetched to me.

The form is an appointment to make a statutory declaration, not a declaration in itself

I think the OP's situation is now complex enough that the only sensible recommendation we can make is to get professional legal advice.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If somebody is using the OP's identity, surely this is fraud and a police matter?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm really struggling to get a clear picture of what's going on here.

The letter you have posted is for an appointment for a Statutory Declaration, it is not a confirmation that the declaration has been made. Are you suggesting that someone else has applied for the hearing in February in your name?

What correspondence do you have for the March date and why are you going to court then?

If you have not already made a declaration you only have 21 days from the date you became aware of the court action - be careful about postponing as the clock is ticking.

 

[DelayRepay]

Thanks, I cannot find the letter, but I do have this information:

Statutory Declaration granted in Liverpool Magistrates Court on 25/02/2014 - I knew nothing of this - was staying with a friend at the time.

This is very confusing. Where did you obtain the information above from? Who told you a statutory decleration had been granted?

The letter you posted as an attachment - who sent you this letter and why? Were they replying to a letter you had sent, and if so what did you ask them to do?

It is unfortunate that you have lost the original letter - may I suggest you keep all the paperwork safe and secure until this is resolved?

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree with an above suggestion I would suggest it would be wise to seek specalist legal advice even if it is only a free 30 minute consultation (a solicitor with experience in defending against criminal prosecution would be suitable as solicitors which specialise in railway law are very expensive). Ensure you bring all relevant paperwork that you've received so far and if possible copies of any letters you've sent.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is from HM Courts and Tribunals Service - Liverpool Magistrates.

The letter you've scanned is NOT asking you to attend a Court hearing for any alleged offence and is NOT imposing any fine.

It IS simply confirmation of an appointment to go in and to make a sworn statement called a Statutory Declaration, which confirms to the court that you had no knowledge of the earlier proceedings against you. This must be a consequence of you having spoken to the Court office saying that was your position. But it is planning an appointment for you in February. So what is confusing us all is that this is March - did you make a Statutory Declaration in February, and had you spoken to the Court before then to try to explain things?

Whatever the answers, you now have two parties to deal with: the Court Office (who process any hearing dates and any orders for convictions and fines); and the Railway Company who brought the claim against you.
Both must be contacted.

Crucially, you need to find out what the Court's original judgement against you was, when it was, and what sentence was imposed, and most importantly, whch Court it was. Without that information, there's only limited advice anyone can give you.

If you want to follow the route of taking advice from a Solicitor, then any local law firm which handles Criminal Defence work will be able to help you.

 

[michaelpjdaly]

This looks very strange. How can a statutory declaration have been made without you knowing anything about it? Is this other person living at the same place as you now and prone to opening your mail? And then going to the local court to say that you hadn't known anything about the original court case? This is starting to sound rather far fetched to me.

It sounds far fetched to me too. I have been given all this information from the court. So would someone have had to turn up and say they were me then for this to happen? Another thing I need to speak to them about. They aren’t very forthcoming with information to be honest. I got most of this information from phoning the court up and someone was good enough to inform me of all this. But I was living around accommodations, the house was full of weirdos, and this one person actually ended up attacking me just before I left the property. Then I stayed with friends in London – no mail went there. Now I am in Liverpool and have a fixed address, so all my mail is catching up with me. This was one of those things, and the first I heard about this was a couple of weeks ago, and was told the ticket was in Portsmouth.

If somebody is using the OP's identity, surely this is fraud and a police matter?

Thank you I will ask about this as well. I cannot solicit legal advice, I have no job and literally cannot pay for that, but you have all been very helpful in letting me know some things I need to speak to them about, I will be calling them back up.

This is very confusing. Where did you obtain the information above from? Who told you a statutory decleration had been granted?

The letter you posted as an attachment - who sent you this letter and why? Were they replying to a letter you had sent, and if so what did you ask them to do?

It is unfortunate that you have lost the original letter - may I suggest you keep all the paperwork safe and secure until this is resolved?

Tell me about it. I’m an idiot for losing it.

Honestly I don’t know how this has happened, but it has.

 

[michaelpjdaly]

Right, I heard about this via letter from the courts about the fine. I went to my local magistrates’ court in Liverpool and I put in the statutory declaration on 25th February.

They asked me to plead – declare it wasn’t me on the train – I did, not guilty.

Sorry I am being an idiot here, my head is somewhat up my bum and I’m confused and I know I’m not being too clear, but that’s because it isn’t clear in my own head.

You have all given me some very helpful advice here, and I would appreciate any further advice if you have it based on what I’ve said.

Thank you.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think if you cannot afford a solicitor, then you ought to see if the local Citizans Advice can help. It is very difficult for us to help on here as we only seem to have half the story and can't see the paperwork etc.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/engla...g_legal_action_e/do_you_need_legal_advice.htm

If they cannot help themselves maybe they can refer you to someone who can help by going through the paperwork and at least working out exactly what has happened.

 

[reb0118]

I went to my local magistrates’ court in Liverpool and I put in the statutory declaration on 25th February.

They asked me to plead – declare it wasn't me on the train – I did, not guilty.

You have not been tried in court (yet?) but you have merely made a Statutory Declaration that you are not the person named in the proceedings. Your guilt or innocence is moot as you are legally stating that you are not the person concerned in this matter.

AFAIAA The ball has now been placed back into the railway's court. They will have to decide if they have enough evidence to prove that it was in fact you involved and if so to reopen proceedings against you.

You do not have to prove anything but crucially if you do have any supporting evidence that you are not the person concerned then it is in your best interests to provide this to the railway company concerned and also to any court that you have had dealings with regarding this matter.

If you know, believe, or merely suspect, any other person may be using your personal details then you must supply this information to the Police. You should also copy in, once again, the railway company and any court that you have had dealings with regarding this matter.

In my opinion you should contact a lawyer (initial interview usually free) or at the very least the CAB (Citizens' Advice Bureau) for help in this matter.

Good luck.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Do you have a new summons to attend the court in March?

 

[455driver]

If you make a statutory declaration that it isnt you and it subsequently turns out it is you then you will probably be held in contempt of Court and a small railway fine will be the least if your worries!

 

[Puffing Devil]

If you make a statutory declaration that it isnt you and it subsequently turns out it is you then you will probably be held in contempt of Court and a small railway fine will be the least if your worries!

Given the initial assertion by the OP, I think that's a pretty defamatory statement in the absence of any other evidence to the contrary.

I’ve never been to Portsmouth in my life and at the time of this alleged offence I was living in a shared house. I guess someone used my name.