They will have taken control of the old page along with everything else I would have imagined that's what's happened with other (non-railway) takeovers that I've seen.
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Virgin Trains East Coast launch day
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They will have taken control of the old page along with everything else I would have imagined that's what's happened with other (non-railway) takeovers that I've seen.
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Bear in mind that, unlike other franchise changes, Virgin East Coast has effectively bought the existing East Coast company and so it is reasonable for them to take ownership of the Facebook page and its likes.
johnnychips
Established Member
Perhaps I'm getting old but I do not automatically think that because a lot of people 'like' something I will like it too. Funny cats or somebody nearly killing themselves in an ice bucket challenge maybe, but not a train company!
Yes, it's not VTEC's fault they won the franchise, and anger about the reprivatisation should be directed at the Government. But because of this, what VTEC now do will be heavily scrutinised.
I was quite delighted that the guard on the 2200 KGX to NCL last night said, "This is the East Coast service..." a couple of times before remembering whom he now worked for by Peterborough.
bramling
Veteran Member
Just saw the new set decked out in Beardy branding on the news.
Just as minging as everything else Virgin touches!
I saw it at King's Cross just now.
My personal view is mixed. On the one hand it's good to see these trains get a genuine livery that reflects their status as one of the premier lines in the country. The National Express and East Coast liveries looked a little too much like undercoat, as did the GNER once it got debranded. The last really good livery these trains had was GNER.
However, I do feel the swirls look a bit messy, especially the way the colours have been made to fade out. Perhaps with sharper lines this would have been a decent livery, but as it is I felt it looks a little tacky. Which is a shame, as the Pretendolino looks good, as do the Pendolinos and Voyagers. At least it's not white or grey -- too many 'undercoat' liveries springing up at the moment.
On a different note (apologies if this has been answered elsewhere), but why is this operation being known as "Virgin Trains East Coast", compared to just "Virgin Trains". Will the west coast operation be renamed VTWC?
SaveECRewards
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I had that today, but in the end East Coast could still be considered correct. It's not like "GNE... sorry National Express" which happened a lot after NXEC took over.
The livery on the class 91's did make me think Coke can, but I quite like the Coca Cola brand, and I think it looks good overall.
Still it's not my favourite livery revealed today, and this one was also on a Stagecoach vehlcle: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/tfl-unveils-rainbow-bus-london020315
I wonder what Brian Souter thinks of that one.
mirodo
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Temple Meads
Established Member
That hasn't half cheered me up.
dcsprior
Member
That's normal for "extended period" bookings (i.e. over 13 weeks in the future)
BurtonM
Member
Livery opinions: not great.
-The bright white between the red and off-white looks wrong, and the faded edge swirly bit on the power car and DVT is awful. I agree with the photoshop above - get rid of everything but the black and the large white section.
-I'd have expected silver like on WC.
-as mentioned it looks a lot like Nederlandse Spoorwegen Hispeed livery.
-the purple bits on 1st class are out of place; look like a leftover from EC.
-it's far too dull, for something so bright. It's missing something, but what?
-looks a bit like Greater Anglia too???
-doesn't do the units justice.
I prefer, and actually quite like the interim red stripe on the silver power car. A basic livery, but it'd work. Straight lines suit the 91/DVT design.
-The bright white between the red and off-white looks wrong, and the faded edge swirly bit on the power car and DVT is awful. I agree with the photoshop above - get rid of everything but the black and the large white section.
-I'd have expected silver like on WC.
-as mentioned it looks a lot like Nederlandse Spoorwegen Hispeed livery.
-the purple bits on 1st class are out of place; look like a leftover from EC.
-it's far too dull, for something so bright. It's missing something, but what?
-looks a bit like Greater Anglia too???
-doesn't do the units justice.
I prefer, and actually quite like the interim red stripe on the silver power car. A basic livery, but it'd work. Straight lines suit the 91/DVT design.
Unlike other London buses, the Borismasters are owned by TfL, Stagecoach just operate them.
Searle
Established Member
On Sunday, I heard the guard say "thank you for travelling with East Coast today"...."VirginEastCoast!" Made quite a few people laugh.
SaveECRewards
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That was my first thought when I seen it posted on Twitter. That it was a TFL decision and not Stagecoach, but the article says "The initiative has been sponsored by Stagecoach"
On to my favourite topic East Coast Rewards. I did a FoI request last month asking a few questions on the rewards scheme. I got the reply towards the end of the week but have only just gotten round to posting online.
That request combined with other publicly available data shows that Rewards did increase sales and the commission earned on sales more than covers the cost of the rewards.
No, it covers the cost of non-EC rewards there is nothing there that even begins to mention the costs of travelling on EC 'Free' tickets at all.
fairysdad
Member
You won't, unless somebody Photoshops one, given that Voyagers and Pendos don't run on the East Coast...
It was mentioned breifly upthread somewhere; the artist's impression of the IEP on VTEC's homepage does show a differing livery, kind of a mix between the two I think.
lincolnshire
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Back in the days of B.R. the East Coast line made money then and this was used to subsidise the rest of the railway, so it making a profit is not something that has happened under privatisation.
Also didn,t the government say that East Coast livery had to be a neutral or undercoat colour ready for who ever won the franchise after been put out to tender.
East Coast was run to keep it going and not improving things, did they hand it over in the same state as they received it and if not better? as per franchise agreement i wonder? Often trains was running round with faults on which in B.R. days would have not been allowed in service, but when you want to run a service that needs nearly everything out there earning its keep you don,t have much choice do you.
May be somebody was missing on first day because Mr. Souter didn,t want him there acting like he owned it and making promises that can,t be kept, remembering that his outfit is only a very minority shareholding in the operation.
Wonder what the bookies odds are for returning 2.8 million quid to the treasury
in 5 years if not may be more ? if they do so well? What will happen to them if they don,t do as well as they stated in there tender for the franchise then, will we see another National Express sudden end of franchise or will we wheel out the not fair play the franchise document was wrongly drawn up like the West Coast ?
Only time will tell the truth regardless of all the critics and know it all on here.
Also didn,t the government say that East Coast livery had to be a neutral or undercoat colour ready for who ever won the franchise after been put out to tender.
East Coast was run to keep it going and not improving things, did they hand it over in the same state as they received it and if not better? as per franchise agreement i wonder? Often trains was running round with faults on which in B.R. days would have not been allowed in service, but when you want to run a service that needs nearly everything out there earning its keep you don,t have much choice do you.
May be somebody was missing on first day because Mr. Souter didn,t want him there acting like he owned it and making promises that can,t be kept, remembering that his outfit is only a very minority shareholding in the operation.
Wonder what the bookies odds are for returning 2.8 million quid to the treasury
in 5 years if not may be more ? if they do so well? What will happen to them if they don,t do as well as they stated in there tender for the franchise then, will we see another National Express sudden end of franchise or will we wheel out the not fair play the franchise document was wrongly drawn up like the West Coast ?
Only time will tell the truth regardless of all the critics and know it all on here.
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dk1
Veteran Member
It's all good fun. Maybe it will be a success maybe it won't, only time will tell. One thing for sure is that it's going to be a bit of a rollercoaster but should be quite exciting. Will keep us all posting for the indefinite future no doubt.
Robertj21a
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Why so pessimistic - has Stagecoach failed with any other rail operation ?
From what I've read on here, seen with my own eyes, and heard from others who work in the industry, DOR did really do very little and just kept things ticking along.
We certainly heard about more issues with rolling stock (we can see the figures for ourselves), and they didn't seem to be too proactive on catching fare evaders. The first class offering was/is a bit of a gamble at times, and so on. No need to repeat everything here.
It's a route that anyone should be able to make money on. A pretty simple route map, two types of train, not so many stations to operate/man, and no real shortage of customers.
The loyalty scheme was perhaps the best thing EC did, possibly too good.
If it helped generate extra profits by getting people to travel more, and book tickets through EC's site, surely Virgin would have seen that data and kept it going?
It would seem likely that Virgin has concluded that it can get loyal custom from passengers without having to give much back, and it could well be correct.
Ultimately, I don't see the 'success' of EC run by DOR as any sort of guide to how DOR could run other routes, or how re-nationalisation would turn every operation into the same success.
We certainly heard about more issues with rolling stock (we can see the figures for ourselves), and they didn't seem to be too proactive on catching fare evaders. The first class offering was/is a bit of a gamble at times, and so on. No need to repeat everything here.
It's a route that anyone should be able to make money on. A pretty simple route map, two types of train, not so many stations to operate/man, and no real shortage of customers.
The loyalty scheme was perhaps the best thing EC did, possibly too good.
If it helped generate extra profits by getting people to travel more, and book tickets through EC's site, surely Virgin would have seen that data and kept it going?
It would seem likely that Virgin has concluded that it can get loyal custom from passengers without having to give much back, and it could well be correct.
Ultimately, I don't see the 'success' of EC run by DOR as any sort of guide to how DOR could run other routes, or how re-nationalisation would turn every operation into the same success.
ash39
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Looking even closer into the future, the HST livery will have to be quite different on the power cars at least. There's no way the swallow-esque lines that run off the windows and front lights will work on a HST. Likewise the swoosh that sits behind the Virgin logo towards the rear cab of the 91 won't work on a HST power car as that's where the whopping great grill sits!
the only rail operation where Stagecoach hasn't succeeded in this country was their very early dabble into hanging a couple of carriages onto a British Rail Intercity sleeper train some time in 80s. They've been successful on SWT and EMT and in partnership on Virgin WC. I suppose Virgin XC did have problems but it was no "failure".
lincolnshire
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Stagecoach has not failed in any of its other rail operations, but these were all let at a time when pay back was not as critical part of the operation as it seems to be these days.
Will the other ones that they presently operate when they come up for renewal be different to the present set up for pay back time to the treasury only time will tell.
Not everything in life is guaranteed to work and keep working ok to the model of previous plan was done too, who would have thought that Woolworths and Comet would disappear off the high streets, both had worked to a previously successful model of operation, time will tell.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
That was actually during 1992.
dk1
Veteran Member
Remember it well. Felt so superior in my berth. Things may be very different today if it wasn't for that little early days venture.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The livery looks good without being great. Fairly functional (quite simple with a couple of additional swooshes that feel like they are trying too hard). But then we all know that its more of a holding livery so that Virgin can give us something flashier when they generously buy all of these new Super Express trains (removes tongue from cheek) its probably better to compare this to the 1990s Virgin livery which filled a similar role (of branding the trains they inherited at the start of the West Coast/ Cross Country franchises whilst not being brilliant).
Theres something quite 90s about it, the big patches of a primary colour (not purple, lime, orange, silver, lilac, turquoise... just plain red and white). At least it fits the criteria of looking good in either direction and making it easy to work out where First Class starts I suppose.
As for the responses on this thread...well, those whove always been critical of Branson/ Souter/ Virgin/ Stagecoach dont like it very much, those whove been fans do like it hard to tell very much from this!
The same goes for the responses to the new franchise: East Coast were great because they returned a premium to the Treasury each year (and it should have been kept in public hands because of this etc etc), whilst Stagecoach/Virgin are bad despite the fact that theyve promised to pay more money?
As Ive said before, if the winning bidder for the franchise promised to pay the Treasury a penny a year less than East Coast did then enthusiasts would say this is proof that we need a publically run railway because its clearly more efficient and better value for money for taxpayers...
...yet if the winning bidder for the franchise promised to pay the Treasury a penny a year more than East Coast did then enthusiasts would say theyll only do this by ramping fares up, cutting back on all costs, sacking staff and anyway theyll default so that they dont have to repay that money. The private sector cant win when it comes to this mindset...
DOR's reputation will be a bit like their plain livery - something that anyone can project their opinion onto - to some they were caretakers who didn't honour the improvements that NXEC were planning (e.g. the 180s hired to provide bi-hourly Lincoln services), they weren't very interested in revenue collection (due to not being a profit motivated company) and they didn't make many improvements...
...but to those who used them regularly enough to get the benefit from free train tickets, nice food in First Class and other perks then going back to a "normal" TOC is going to be quite a bump back down to earth. The glass is either half full or half empty.
More interesting would be to see how DOR got on with a "common or garden" franchise (London Midland?), where there's a lot less online booking and the catering isn't more than a trolley.
Theres something quite 90s about it, the big patches of a primary colour (not purple, lime, orange, silver, lilac, turquoise... just plain red and white). At least it fits the criteria of looking good in either direction and making it easy to work out where First Class starts I suppose.
As for the responses on this thread...well, those whove always been critical of Branson/ Souter/ Virgin/ Stagecoach dont like it very much, those whove been fans do like it hard to tell very much from this!
The same goes for the responses to the new franchise: East Coast were great because they returned a premium to the Treasury each year (and it should have been kept in public hands because of this etc etc), whilst Stagecoach/Virgin are bad despite the fact that theyve promised to pay more money?
As Ive said before, if the winning bidder for the franchise promised to pay the Treasury a penny a year less than East Coast did then enthusiasts would say this is proof that we need a publically run railway because its clearly more efficient and better value for money for taxpayers...
...yet if the winning bidder for the franchise promised to pay the Treasury a penny a year more than East Coast did then enthusiasts would say theyll only do this by ramping fares up, cutting back on all costs, sacking staff and anyway theyll default so that they dont have to repay that money. The private sector cant win when it comes to this mindset...
DOR's reputation will be a bit like their plain livery - something that anyone can project their opinion onto - to some they were caretakers who didn't honour the improvements that NXEC were planning (e.g. the 180s hired to provide bi-hourly Lincoln services), they weren't very interested in revenue collection (due to not being a profit motivated company) and they didn't make many improvements...
...but to those who used them regularly enough to get the benefit from free train tickets, nice food in First Class and other perks then going back to a "normal" TOC is going to be quite a bump back down to earth. The glass is either half full or half empty.
More interesting would be to see how DOR got on with a "common or garden" franchise (London Midland?), where there's a lot less online booking and the catering isn't more than a trolley.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though that was originally intended to go on the Pendolinos/Voyagers - the silver came later. Originally I think they intended to keep InterCity livery on old trains, they later decided to repaint (one XC set was repainted in unbranded InterCity livery).
TBH the bulk of LM doesn't need innovation, and while it uses brash colours and has the odd promotion like the Great Escape and the very low long-distance fares (mostly the doing of David Whitley, I believe, even though he's moved on to being a regional operations manager of some kind) LM is very conservative in the way it runs - which is precisely what it needs to be as primarily a commuter and local operation. What most LM passengers want is punctuality, reliability and a seat, nothing more.
I wouldn't, to be honest, expect it to be much different under DOR, or indeed BR.
Neil
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CallySleeper
Established Member
There is at least a second DVT set in full new livery.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Probably off-topic, but that depends on how you define failure.
They failed to pay the promised dividends, and actually sued DfT for more subsidy, at East Midlands Trains (that cost the taxpayer £46m) and South West Trains (that one cost £60m). We saw similar agreements for Virgin Trains in the mid-2000s.
Call me an old cynic, but I can't help but wonder when East Coast's revenues will miraculously plummet, meaning Souter will get to hoover up yet more taxpayer cash in "revenue support".
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