An extraordinary conundrum regarding fare evasion....Advice needed

[stimpy]

So here it goes,

I received through the post about a couple of months ago a second reminder to pay the sum of 100 or so pounds or face my details getting passed onto a collection agency. This is something I was not expecting, as I haven't evaded any fares...

Suspicious. Someone posing as me, surely. This person clearly knows me, as they boarded the station where my family home is. This is my parents home- i have spent last three years away at uni. I was not living at home when the journey took place.

Well, the evidence is there: The letter has my name and street name correct, but the town is cited as the neighbouring village, which shares the name as my street (its a main road leading to said village). On top of this the postcode is incorrect. Well, the postman has, i suppose, put his area knowledge to good use and rectified the senders mistake by sending it the address clearly intended. Mine.

I often let my mail stack up, as it usually either bank statements or junk- I wasn't expecting anything special. Once every couple of months i'll sift through and open and discard. Hence why this letter was dated a couple of months ago but bought to my attention now.

Now, I'm at a loss as to what to do. Right off the bat, around 2007, when i was a juvenile, I had been prosecuted for this before. I was out of the country at the time and my poor old dad had to fork out around 400 pounds to bailiffs and courts.

So with this in mind, im worried. I haven't had any more letters since- perhaps they haven't got through this time, due to the garbled address. I want to be able to plead not guilty to this, though something tells me that , due to them viewing it as "my" second offence, they're basically gonna prosecute.

This is a real spanner in the works. Having just completed my teacher training, i'm off, in about 6 months, very far abroad to teach. I don't want my parents being inundated with bailiffs in my absence. Now, if i were able to go to court and plead not guilty, then i'd happily go through the motions if i had a chance of winning. Im sceptical that i could win... (* previous offence).


With this previous conviction as a juvenile now wiped, another one in adulthood is not exactly going to bode with said teaching career. I'm exasperated, worried; so much so, i would rather cough up the bucks myself in an out of court settlement. If that's even possible (given previous offence)

Now, I've scratched around for info and concluded that CCTV isn't going to help as the journey occurred early October. CCTV images aren't stored that long. So they won't be able to identify this cretin, will they?

I've tried emailing the place that deals with such grievances, only to say that this has been passed on to a debt collection agency. I haven't called them yet, as reasoning with those brutes isn't going to yield much, surely.

Ideally, id like to go to court and fight it. But is this going to work? What if i never receive the summons due to the address, and it all happens in my absence? Then come the bailiffs?

It seems to me, that in the absence of CCTV evidence, and my word (a train-'convict') up against Abellio/The Bailiffs (who want their money and don't care who coughs it up) means That I'm effectively guilty whether they can prove it beyond reasonable doubt or not. Does the concept of 'beyond reasonable doubt' hold up in these kind of petty cases? I mean, if they can't prove it was me, nor prove who it was? Shouldn't this be thrown out?

If its a matter of who's a credible wins, then rather pay the money in an out of court settlement and avoid the criminal record. But, won't they desire to take it as far as possible so they can win the costs, and use my previous offence to ensure that they do win?

It seems mad: Hypothetically, Why would I provide all my details correctly to the authorised person, and then provide the 'town' line of my address as the neighbouring village. If i was intending to evade a fare, surely i would have just given them totally false details! This is an imposter, who either has no morals, or has it in for me.

Who do I call? I can;t call the collection agency, the consumer, appeals people wont help as they've washed their hands of it. I don't know if i could call the court? (Ipswich is nearest town)

So thats the situation. A horrid one, thats going to cause a lot of hell for me, and possibly my parents. When i'm innocent.

Help/Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks
Stimpy

 

[Agent_c]

So here it goes,

I received through the post about a couple of months ago a second reminder to pay the sum of 100 or so pounds or face my details getting passed onto a collection agency. This is something I was not expecting, as I haven't evaded any fares...

Suspicious. Someone posing as me, surely. This person clearly knows me, as they boarded the station where my family home is. This is my parents home- i have spent last three years away at uni. I was not living at home when the journey took place.

Well, the evidence is there: The letter has my name and street name correct, but the town is cited as the neighbouring village, which shares the name as my street (its a main road leading to said village). On top of this the postcode is incorrect. Well, the postman has, i suppose, put his area knowledge to good use and rectified the senders mistake by sending it the address clearly intended. Mine.

I often let my mail stack up, as it usually either bank statements or junk- I wasn't expecting anything special. Once every couple of months i'll sift through and open and discard. Hence why this letter was dated a couple of months ago but bought to my attention now.

Now, I'm at a loss as to what to do. Right off the bat, around 2007, when i was a juvenile, I had been prosecuted for this before. I was out of the country at the time and my poor old dad had to fork out around 400 pounds to bailiffs and courts.

So with this in mind, im worried. I haven't had any more letters since- perhaps they haven't got through this time, due to the garbled address. I want to be able to plead not guilty to this, though something tells me that , due to them viewing it as "my" second offence, they're basically gonna prosecute.

This is a real spanner in the works. Having just completed my teacher training, i'm off, in about 6 months, very far abroad to teach. I don't want my parents being inundated with bailiffs in my absence. Now, if i were able to go to court and plead not guilty, then i'd happily go through the motions if i had a chance of winning. Im sceptical that i could win... (* previous offence).


With this previous conviction as a juvenile now wiped, another one in adulthood is not exactly going to bode with said teaching career. I'm exasperated, worried; so much so, i would rather cough up the bucks myself in an out of court settlement. If that's even possible (given previous offence)

Now, I've scratched around for info and concluded that CCTV isn't going to help as the journey occurred early October. CCTV images aren't stored that long. So they won't be able to identify this cretin, will they?

I've tried emailing the place that deals with such grievances, only to say that this has been passed on to a debt collection agency. I haven't called them yet, as reasoning with those brutes isn't going to yield much, surely.

Ideally, id like to go to court and fight it. But is this going to work? What if i never receive the summons due to the address, and it all happens in my absence? Then come the bailiffs?

It seems to me, that in the absence of CCTV evidence, and my word (a train-'convict') up against Abellio/The Bailiffs (who want their money and don't care who coughs it up) means That I'm effectively guilty whether they can prove it beyond reasonable doubt or not. Does the concept of 'beyond reasonable doubt' hold up in these kind of petty cases? I mean, if they can't prove it was me, nor prove who it was? Shouldn't this be thrown out?

If its a matter of who's a credible wins, then rather pay the money in an out of court settlement and avoid the criminal record. But, won't they desire to take it as far as possible so they can win the costs, and use my previous offence to ensure that they do win?

It seems mad: Hypothetically, Why would I provide all my details correctly to the authorised person, and then provide the 'town' line of my address as the neighbouring village. If i was intending to evade a fare, surely i would have just given them totally false details! This is an imposter, who either has no morals, or has it in for me.

Who do I call? I can;t call the collection agency, the consumer, appeals people wont help as they've washed their hands of it. I don't know if i could call the court? (Ipswich is nearest town)

So thats the situation. A horrid one, thats going to cause a lot of hell for me, and possibly my parents. When i'm innocent.

Help/Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks
Stimpy

Send them a strongly worded letter stating clearly its not you they're after, and any further demands for money will be treated as harrasment.

 

[stimpy]

Hi, thanks for replying. Send who a strongly worded letter?

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm confused!

Lets ignore what happened when you were a "minor";that has no relevance now.

Does the second case apply to you?
Have you in the last 2(??) years done anything that could have resulted in this case?

If not, then write to the ORIGINAL issuing body saying that this does NOT apply to you and tell them to "back off"

 

[Agent_c]

Hi, thanks for replying. Send who a strongly worded letter?

I'd send it to everyone relevant - the debt collection agency, and the ticketing company, and anyone else who's stuck their nose in.

In any case, its for them to prove that you owe the debt, and not for you to prove its not you.

 

[stimpy]

SO AM I!!! haha, oh dear. No, offence two is clearly the work of am imposter. Original issuing body was IRCAS, but they've passed it to a debt collection agency claiming its out of their hands

 

[stimpy]

Just to clarify- This is an imposter using my details. Sorry about the tirade, my brain hurts worrying over it

So a strongly worded letter


Do you think that will work?
If so, couldn't everyone do that regardless of their guilt?

 

[Fare-Cop]

Just to clarify- This is an imposter using my details. Sorry about the tirade, my brain hurts worrying over it

So a strongly worded letter

Do you think that will work?

Possibly, but unfortunately there's no guarantee

If so, couldn't everyone do that regardless of their guilt?

Yes.

The outcome of this will depend on what, if any, corroborating evidence they think they have. If they are convinced that they have the correct personal details they could refer the unpaid fare for issue of a summons.


Could you just clarify this a bit further please

around 2007, when i was a juvenile, I had been prosecuted for this before. I was out of the country at the time and my poor old dad had to fork out around 400 pounds to bailiffs and courts.

I'm a bit confused by your reference to Courts & Bailiffs in this instance as it is extremely rare for a 'juvenile' to be prosecuted for fares matters and even more unusual that this should be whilst the juvenile was 'out of the country'.

 

[stimpy]

Possibly, but unfortunately there's no guarantee




Yes.

The outcome of this will depend on what, if any, corroborating evidence they think they have. If they are convinced that they have the correct personal details they could refer the unpaid fare for issue of a summons.


Could you just clarify this a bit further please



I'm a bit confused by your reference to Courts & Bailiffs in this instance as it is extremely rare for a 'juvenile' to be prosecuted for fares matters and even more unusual that this should be whilst the juvenile was 'out of the country'.

the offence had occurred when I was 17, but by the time the pleading letter had arrived, I was out of the country. It was not submitted, and all I know is that by the time I got back, my father said that he had paid some 400 pounds in relettion to it. We have the initials, so he opened the letter. I suppose that makes me a second time offender no? This was back in 2008. It should be spent, I think

 

[Timster83]

You have spent the last three years at university and away from your parent's home. Do you have bank or credit card statements which cover any transactions made on the day in question? If the case goes to court then these may help to establish your whereabouts on the day the fare evasion took place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you are being told that you are being chased for an unpaid fare and you know you've paid all your fares, then you need to write to the TOC in question telling them this. They may ask for more information from you, but it should be enough. IRCAS should be able to tell you what the alleged unpaid fare is, even if they're not prepared to help you further, and you will be able to find out which TOC it is from them.

Your worry appears disproportionate to your certainty that you've done no wrong...

 

[stimpy]

If you are being told that you are being chased for an unpaid fare and you know you've paid all your fares, then you need to write to the TOC in question telling them this. They may ask for more information from you, but it should be enough. IRCAS should be able to tell you what the alleged unpaid fare is, even if they're not prepared to help you further, and you will be able to find out which TOC it is from them.

Your worry appears disproportionate to your certainty that you've done no wrong...

Because I know how unreasonable and tacit these organisations can be, that coupled with the fact the only number I've been given is that of a debt collection agency, compounded with the fact that I probably won't be In the country long enough to go to court due to career commitments... Surely you can understand my worry/ exasperation ?

 

[Agent_c]

If so, couldn't everyone do that regardless of their guilt?

It is not your job to prove your innocence. Its their job to prove the debt exists, and that you owe it.

Otherwise, everyone could demand money from you, regardless of your innocence.

 

[DelayRepay]

Maybe one of the more experienced members can help but to me, it sounds like they are chasing this as a civil debt at the moment. They could of course decide to prosecute instead.

Is it possible for you to post a copy of the letter, with any personal or identifying details blanked out so we can be sure what they are threatening you with?

I assume the letter gives the date/time/location of the alledged offence. Whilst it is not for you to prove that you are innocent, it might help to resolve this if you do have some proof you couldn't have been the person involved. Can you think back to what you were doing on that day and is there any evidence you can provide? E.g. if you were in college or at work are there attendence records that would help.

Before anyone jumps on me, I know the OP doesn't have to prove anything - but it might make his life easier if he can.

 

[Clip]

Before anyone jumps on me, I know the OP doesn't have to prove anything - but it might make his life easier if he can.

I agree with you - better to be proactive about this situation now rather than trying to sort out later if it goes to court and as the OP says they will be going away.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Does the letter state when the alleged offence took place? Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt where you were on that date/time?

If so, then you can confidently write a letter to the TOC concerned stating your side of the story and that the debt is nothing to do with you.

 

[Agent_c]

Does the letter state when the alleged offence took place? Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt where you were on that date/time?

He doesn't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the accuser's job.

 

[Dennis]

but they've passed it to a debt collection agency claiming its out of their hands

I had a problem with a DCA a couple of years back claiming that they had taken on a debt from a credit card provider that I never had any dealings with.

Advice I received at the time was not to give the DCA **any** information (not even a signature) and certainly do not acknowledge the debt, but get them to provide all relevant facts regarding the alleged debt.

Put a time limit on this (there is a legal requirement that they provide it within a set period of time although I cannot remember what it is - please check) and send the letter by recorded delivery so you know when they receive it.

If they are unable to provide the details in the required time, write again and state that you consider the matter closed as they have failed to provide the necessary details and that no further correspondence will be entered into.


If they do provide necessary details (date, location, etc etc), you will then probably need to be able to find evidence to back-up your side of the story....

 

[Islineclear3_1]

He doesn't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the accuser's job.

May I suggest that if you wish to fight this in court, then you may wish to provide proof where you were at the date and time of said offence.

If you "know" it wasn't you, then you have nothing to worry about and you'd be able to provide supporting evidence in court with absolute confidence

May I also advise that "if" this goes to court and you are found guilty and prosecuted a second time, you will have to declare this on any DBS checks. As a teacher, you will be subject to enhanced disclosure (well at least in this country) and the fact you would have two separate convictions have to be declared whether one is spent or not.

just a couple of thoughts....

 

[DelayRepay]

I had a problem with a DCA a couple of years back claiming that they had taken on a debt from a credit card provider that I never had any dealings with.

Advice I received at the time was not to give the DCA **any** information (not even a signature) and certainly do not acknowledge the debt, but get them to provide all relevant facts regarding the alleged debt.

Put a time limit on this (there is a legal requirement that they provide it within a set period of time although I cannot remember what it is - please check) and send the letter by recorded delivery so you know when they receive it.

If they are unable to provide the details in the required time, write again and state that you consider the matter closed as they have failed to provide the necessary details and that no further correspondence will be entered into.


If they do provide necessary details (date, location, etc etc), you will then probably need to be able to find evidence to back-up your side of the story....

I'm afraid the bit I've put in bold is not a lot of help. I believe you are referring to a consumer credit debt regulated by the Consumer Credit Act. The difference is that lenders under the CCA are regulated and can't prosecute you. TOCs are not regulated as tightly in their debt collection practices and have the option to prosecute.

I think it is unwise for the OP to try to treat this as a credit card debt when it is something completely different.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm afraid the bit I've put in bold is not a lot of help. I believe you are referring to a consumer credit debt regulated by the Consumer Credit Act. The difference is that lenders under the CCA are regulated and can't prosecute you. TOCs are not regulated as tightly in their debt collection practices and have the option to prosecute.

I think it is unwise for the OP to try to treat this as a credit card debt when it is something completely different.

We already know that the offence took place last October (in the OP). So if a prosecution was to be issued, then there is roughly one month to issue a summons.

It's a reasonable assumption that this isn't going to happen as the DCA needs time to pursue the civil debt first.

However there is a small chance that the TOC will call the debt back in within the month.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Please disregard this advice:

I had a problem with a DCA a couple of years back claiming that they had taken on a debt from a credit card provider that I never had any dealings with.

It is not relevant to your request for assistance.

He doesn't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the accuser's job.

Indeed!
But it is unwise to assume that the accuser's evidence may not be persuasive if all we know of the accused's position is that they claim innocence and has no more to say.
Some evidential grounds for refuting a claim is always a good place to start in any adversarial relationship.

 

[matt_world2004]

If it goes to court.couldn't the RPI who issued the penalty testify they didn't issue it to you.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Please disregard this advice:It is not relevant to your request for assistance.

Indeed!
But it is unwise to assume that the accuser's evidence may not be persuasive if all we know of the accused's position is that they claim innocence and has no more to say.
Some evidential grounds for refuting a claim is always a good place to start in any adversarial relationship.

This reminds me of the countless times that I have seen letters regarding allegations of fare evasion returned to the issuing office marked 'Not Known At This Address' when there is good evidence of identity at the processing office, where staff will check the original report and do a little further research before issuing a summons.

It's quite interesting to see how the Court often react to the apparent earlier attempt to pervert the course of justice that is evidenced by the prosecutor who might well produce that returned envelope when a subsequent 'guilty' plea is made by a defendant.

 

[EssexGonzo]

If it goes to court.couldn't the RPI who issued the penalty testify they didn't issue it to you.

And wouldn't there be the alleged offenders signature on a document completed and kept by the RPI?

 

[DarloRich]

Has this matter been before the courts? Are the bailiffs seeking to enforce a court order?

 

[Tibbs]

Also never, ever talk to Debt collectors on the phone. Do everything in writing. If they do call, tell them to contact you in writing and to never call you again.

Either send things recorded or send things first class, making sure you get proof of posting.

If you do get a letter from the collection agency a simple "This debt is denied refer back to xxx (IPFAS or IRCAS or whoever) and don't contact me again" is usually enough to get them off your case.

 

[Greenback]

Good advice, Tibbs, it certainly worked for me!

 

[higthomas]

Also never, ever talk to Debt collectors on the phone. Do everything in writing. If they do call, tell them to contact you in writing and to never call you again.

.

Why?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

.

Why?

Because you have no proof of what was, or wasn't said. Unless both sides advise of and agree to recording of the conversation before it commences.

Because you then have an audit (or evidence) trail of all communications.

Because putting something in writing gives you time to think about your response rather than blurting out whatever comes into your head at the time. You can, for example, look at your diary to see where you were that day, rather than saying 'I think I was out shopping' and then later saying 'I was at the football'. The contradiction makes it look like you have changed your story rather than simply not knowing when asked about something a long time ago.

Because the person at the other end (in this case the person chasing the alleged debt) will think about what they have written and will have to take responsibility for it in future - which is proving very useful for my current dispute with BT!