Split Ticketing Notice of Intention to Prosecute.

[455driver]

Why do I get the feeling that somebody tried to be clever and failed miserably, there is quite a lot of inaccurate info in the OP (train arrival time etc) so what else is wrong?

 

[tony6499]

Why do I get the feeling that somebody tried to be clever and failed miserably, there is quite a lot of inaccurate info in the OP (train arrival time etc) so what else is wrong?

We even got the inspector was aggressive and he felt intimidated

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sure the OP will be back at some stage to clarify the inconsistencies in their story...

 

[najaB]

Under section 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, you are permitted to buy a ticket covering only part of your journey if (and only if) tickets you want are not available for purchase at the origin station, as long as you purchase the rest of of the tickets or part-exchange to the correct ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

An honest question - would Section 3 even apply? It says "If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket..." - in this case the OP could buy an appropriate ticket for a journey to Luton Parkway, they just chose not to.

Where does the line fall between an 'appropriate ticket' and 'the ticket you want'? It's clear in the case of things like evening Rovers that aren't sold from TVMs, but surely if there's a standard ticket available to your destination you're obliged to purchase it?

 

[island]

An honest question - would Section 3 even apply? It says "If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket..." - in this case the OP could buy an appropriate ticket for a journey to Luton Parkway, they just chose not to.

Where does the line fall between an 'appropriate ticket' and 'the ticket you want'? It's clear in the case of things like evening Rovers that aren't sold from TVMs, but surely if there's a standard ticket available to your destination you're obliged to purchase it?

This is an interesting and not at all straightforward point for discussion. If the TVM sold a ticket which would have entitled the OP to make his full journey, is he at fault for choosing not to purchase it in favour of a lower price combination? In the general case I think he would have an argument – it is more or less accepted that where a TVM isn't selling cheap evening returns (RIP), Rangers, or off-peak tickets which would be valid, the passenger is entitled to buy a part-way ticket and exchange. Is this such a case? I don't think we need to decide it in this instance, as the passenger appears to have had ample opportunity to buy at a connecting station but chose not to.

 

[Flamingo]

I had somebody recently who handed me an Anytime ticket from Paddington to Reading on an evening train about thirty minutes after we passed Reading (and after I had walked past him at leadt three times) saying "I bought this from a TVM as a permit to travel. I want to buy an off-peak from Reading to X and a Super-off-Peak from X to Y". Y, by coincidence, is unbarriered.

When asked why they had not bought them all at Paddington they said the queues were too long (the ticket was timed 20 minutes before departure) and they are not oblidged to queue an unreasonable time, and when asked why they hadn't found me on board or stopped me when I walked past them, they said they were under no obligation to stop me, I had to aproach them.

Basically, they sounded like they had been reading this forum, but only taking out the bits they liked.

It didn't end well for them, I informed them of their requirement to purchase an extension before the first ticket ran out, that they were now in breach or the RoRA, and that at the time they are travelling, off-peak tickets are not valid from Reading. I then charged them an Anytime Single (as they did not have a ticket) from Reading to Y, £60, not the approx £18 they wanted to pay, plus they are now on my radar...

 

[gnik1]

Why didn't you buy your St Albans-Luton Airport Parkway ticket the same time as you bought your first ticket?

Any station can sell a ticket to or from any destination. Alternatively you may wish to purchase on-line and collect them from the ticket vending machine. You can collect tickets from any TVM linked to the network (which is virtually all of them).

The station was close and there was only a machine, which only sold tickets from Bearsted

 

[Clip]

The station was close and there was only a machine, which only sold tickets from Bearsted

And did the machine there have the option to purchase a ticket to your final destination?

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps you need to buy the more expensive ticket and then claim a refund after, on the basis the TVM didn't offer the full range of tickets.

 

[gnik1]

The machine did sell tickets to Luton Parkway. I was just trying to save money but I wanted to pay for the whole of the journey. I really and honestly did not want to defraud the operator but pay the best fare offered.

 

[Clip]

The best fare offered was that which the machine at Bearstead would sell you. Or an extension to be bought at Blackfriars where you changed trains.

You chose to ignore both of these yet feel hard done by the aggressive and intimidating RPI who was doing their job correctly.

 

[gnik1]

Thanks for the response.

I did not see any guards on either train and at Blackfriers sometime the train from Bearsted is delayed and or an earlier train is delayed going to Luton Parkway so they arrive and depart at similar times. I cannot remember that day but I believe that there was not much gap in the arrival and departure.

I sought to buy a ticket at Luton I did not go to the barriers but to a window that appeared to be an access fare point.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is easy to say in hindsight, but why didn't you get off at St Albans? The service is frequent anyway so the time lost is a lot shorter than what you have gone through. I could understand when you have 1 hour to wait for you next service but on a 6tph route?

 

[Clip]

AFAIK Thameslink do not have guards and the only guards on SET are on the Chatham mainline so to me and also to the TOC concerned it looks like you had no intention of paying the fare in full as you passed another opportunity to pay at Blackfriars where theres about 8tph to Luton Parkway.

Just because a train may be delayed sometimes does not absolve you of the need to have the correct ticket(s) for your journey. You did not.

 

[gnik1]

Thank you to all who have made a post. I wish I knew all of that at the time but ignorance is no excuse.

I was just trying to get the best fare for my employer I did not intend to defraud at all.

With the very long platforms at Blackfriers and the close arrival and departure of trains due to lateness going either way, I did not think that there was opportunity to buy at Blackfriers without fear of delay.

Previously the guards have been brilliant and on the train from Bearsted a lot of tickets are sold on the train. The previous week I bought a ticket on the train from Blackfriers because I was late getting to the station and did not see anyone on the train from Bearsted, so I thought that it was perfectly acceptable to do that.

I really do think that I took the first opportunity to buy a split ticket but could have easily bought a ticket at Beatsted for the whole journey.

What should I do, do I just admit guilt? I do not think that I am actually guilty but what to cause the minimum damage to myself that I can. Do I have a sound defense, from what I have read it is weak. What should I do to mitigate the impact of all this?

 

[crehld]

And did the machine there have the option to purchase a ticket to your final destination?

Irrelevant. The passenger wanted to split their journey in accordance with the NRCoC. The TVM was unable to sell the appropriate tickets and it has already been established the ticket office was closed, so no opportunity to buy the appropriate fare was presented at Bearsted. What about those TVMs that won't sell a full range of tickets limiting passengers to the most expensive options when cheaper tickets are available? By your logic these passengers have no right to the cheaper tickets.

The sticking point is why the OP failed to purchase the second half en route. The OP claims they had no intention to defraud, so we wait to hear why the OP did not actively approach a guard on route or why they didn't use facilities at interchange stations.

 

[jon0844]

The machine did sell tickets to Luton Parkway. I was just trying to save money but I wanted to pay for the whole of the journey. I really and honestly did not want to defraud the operator but pay the best fare offered.

What I meant is buy the through ticket (i.e. to cover the whole journey) and then write in to claim the money back on the basis that you couldn't buy the tickets you wanted. Maybe a faff, but one where you're not going to get into any trouble.

It might even get the TVM software updated to offer tickets originating from another station as many now do.

Or else, you get off where the ticket validity ends and buy the new one and then complain and ask when the TVM will be able to sell the tickets you need.

 

[Clip]

Irrelevant. The passenger wanted to split their journey in accordance with the NRCoC. The TVM was unable to sell the appropriate tickets and it has already been established the ticket office was closed, so no opportunity to buy the appropriate fare was presented at Bearsted. What about those TVMs that won't sell a full range of tickets limiting passengers to the most expensive options when cheaper tickets are available? By your logic these passengers have no right to the cheaper tickets.

The sticking point is why the OP failed to purchase the second half en route. The OP claims they had no intention to defraud, so we wait to hear why the OP did not actively approach a guard on route or why they didn't use facilities at interchange stations.

Its not irrelevant its just a question I asked. I have offered no logic I just asked a question. One thinks you are reading into my question for your own purposes and you have expanded on that somewhat when there really was no need to, was there?

 

[crehld]

The reason I said it was irrelevant was because it has already been established that the Bearsted TVM was unable to offer a full range of tickets the OP wanted. I obviously misinterpreted what you said as it appeared as if you were suggesting that passengers are only entitled to the tickets offered by TVMs, even when TVMs do not offer the full range of available tickets. I'm sorry if I read top much into it - the inherent danger of online communication!

 

[Flamingo]

The reason I said it was irrelevant was because it has already been established that the Bearsted TVM was unable to offer a full range of tickets the OP wanted. I obviously misinterpreted what you said as it appeared as if you were suggesting that passengers are only entitled to the tickets offered by TVMs, even when TVMs do not offer the full range of available tickets. I'm sorry if I read top much into it - the inherent danger of online communication!

The TVM offered the OP a ticket to their destination, or to a point where they could purchase further tickets if they wished to get creative.

The arguement has been had ad nauseum on this site, but the obligation is on the passenger to purchase a ticket for their journey. If they wish to do so in a creative manner, then the onus is on them to find a method of doing so.

This is not a case where the TVM would not accept a method of payment, was broken, or the passenger could not use it due to some disability or infirmity.

 

[Andrew1395]

I think the OP should put all of us barrack room lawyers out of our misery by going to court to see if the railway has to sell you a split ticket before boarding a train. A split ticket is two purchases and two contracts. I think the OP should be honoured to risk a large fine and criminal record to clear up the point that the railway must at all times at a railway station offer every possible split ticket. The mere fact that he could have bought his ticket the day before or when he interchanged at Blackfriars clearly are counter points that need testing. I suspect when we get tickets on mobiles the railway will need to provide charging points at all stations and on all trains to allow people with flat batteries to buy their splits just before encountering any ticket check. The fact that you do not buy a ticket (they belong to the railway) only an opportunity to travel is also potentially relevant. What would be the courts judgement if the OP bought the Bearsted to Luton ticket and sued the railway for the excess amount he paid when really he wanted to buy two tickets which he was unable to do at the TVM.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think this would be a very bad test case in court as the opportunity to buy at Blackfriars would allow a conclusion to be reached without testing the real ambiguity

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the response.

I did not see any guards on either train and at Blackfriers sometime the train from Bearsted is delayed and or an earlier train is delayed going to Luton Parkway so they arrive and depart at similar times. I cannot remember that day but I believe that there was not much gap in the arrival and departure.

I sought to buy a ticket at Luton I did not go to the barriers but to a window that appeared to be an access fare point.

With the very long platforms at Blackfriers and the close arrival and departure of trains due to lateness going either way, I did not think that there was opportunity to buy at Blackfriers without fear of delay.

I think it has already been established that your 0558 train from Bearsted arrived at Blackfriars early at 0703 (due 0707).

That gave you over 20 minutes if you intended to catch the 0726. You cannot seriously claim that it was not enough time to go to the ticket office and investigate the possibility of buying your ticket from St Albans.

 

[Barn]

Very sorry, I think you may be correct: legislation.gov.uk states that the sections mandating fraudulent intent were repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act 1892. Said site does not contain the Statute Law Revision Act 1892, but irishstatutebook.ie says that the SLRA 1892 repealed s. 103 up 'to “thereof, or” where those words last occur.'. The SLRA 1892 was repealed in its entirety by the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1998 here. I was confused because legislation.gov.uk has updated the RCCA for the 1892 repeal, but not again for the 1998 repeal of the repeal.

For info, a repeal of a repealing provision does not revive the original wording - see s15 Interpretation Act 1978.

Plus be careful with Irish sources - they inherited Victorian legislation but are free to do what they like with it, which may differ from the position in the UK.

 

[Haywain]

For the record, Luton Airport Parkway does not have an excess fare window. The booking office, which is at the far end of the gateline for those arriving by train, has a window to the paid area but this is where the gateline staff keep their bags with Avantix gear, Penalty Fare pads etc.

 

[jon0844]

Out of interest, how do they treat people who arrive with an Oyster card at Luton Airport Parkway? I've seen RPIs being very fair to people on the train to Gatwick and just charging the fare from East Croydon (and also pointing out that the user will be charged a maximum cash fare).

I wonder if they do that at Luton too? I know this is a bit off topic btw.

 

[rdwarr]

I use Blackfriars every day. In order to buy a ticket there the OP would have had to:
1) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge
2) Descend 82 steps
3) Explain to the gateline staff that he was breaking his journey to buy a ticket
4) Go to the ticket office and join the queue
5) Buy a ticket
6) Explain to the gateline staff that he had broken his journey to buy a ticket
7) Ascend 82 steps
8) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge

That isn't a five minute task list.

 

[bb21]

I use Blackfriars every day. In order to buy a ticket there the OP would have had to:
1) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge
2) Descend 82 steps
3) Explain to the gateline staff that he was breaking his journey to buy a ticket
4) Go to the ticket office and join the queue
5) Buy a ticket
6) Explain to the gateline staff that he had broken his journey to buy a ticket
7) Ascend 82 steps
8) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge

That isn't a five minute task list.

... and no one claimed that it is a five minute job to do all that.

Also if the OP arrived on SouthEastern and heading northbound, there would not be half the length of the bridge to walk if he positions himself at the front of the train, and there certainly would not have been any need to walk that distance to catch a train afterwards. There are also escalators available.

 

[Deerfold]

I use Blackfriars every day. In order to buy a ticket there the OP would have had to:
1) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge
2) Descend 82 steps
3) Explain to the gateline staff that he was breaking his journey to buy a ticket
4) Go to the ticket office and join the queue
5) Buy a ticket
6) Explain to the gateline staff that he had broken his journey to buy a ticket
7) Ascend 82 steps
8) Walk half the lenght of Blackfriard Bridge

That isn't a five minute task list.

No. But the records appear to show 20 minutes between the trains they said they arrived and left on.

 

[rdwarr]

No. But the records appear to show 20 minutes between the trains they said they arrived and left on.

Ah, I see. You could do it in 20 minutes! (If you knew you were supposed to).

Also my post was based on using the Southern side as it's the only one I use. It may well be different at the Northern end.