Split Ticketing Notice of Intention to Prosecute.

[gnik1]

I live near Maidstone and have recently started some work in Luton Parkway. On the 28th Jan I purchased a ticket at the machine at Bearsted and boarded the 5.58 AM bound for Luton Parkway changing at Blackfriers. I had been told by a conductor the previous day that it was cheaper to buy a ticket for St Albans and a ticket from St Albans for Luton Parkway. Indeed it is as advertised.

It is £45.30 direct and £40.40 if you split the journey at St Albans. The train arrived at Blackfriers at 7.07 and where you change for Luton Parkway on the 7.26, but it practice there were delays and they arrived and departed at similar times.

I did not see any conductor or have any opportunity to buy the ticket from St Albans to Luton Parkway so did arrive at Luton without a valid ticket for that part of the journey. I was my intention to pay for the journey and I went to the access ticket booth and tried to attract attention but someone came over from the barriers and said he would deal it.

I explained what I wanted a ticket. He mentioned a penalty fare. I said I would not pay that and it was my intention to buy a ticket. I used my dictaphone to record his number as I did not have a pen on me and for my own protection as I thought he was becoming aggressive. That seemed to make him worse. I was a little upset at the time as my train was delayed by 2 hours the previous evening, and I was tired.

He filled out some paperwork and did not give me a copy. Today I received a 'Notice of Intention to Prosecute'. Today I wrote back explaining the situation and that it was always my wish and intention to pay. I explained that my train fares are paid as expenses by by employer and that I have no personal gain if I avoid fares. I wrote to Thameslink to complain that evening.

I just want the best fares possible and do not understand the silly pricing structure.

The notice that I received says that I was stopped which is not correct, I approached them to buy a ticket at the excess ticket booth, or what appear to be one.

Please can someone advise me on what I should do.

 

[Class377]

Being caught without a valid ticket is a strict liability matter. You did not hold a ticket between St Albans and Luton Airport Parkway and so you are bang to rights.

Best practice when buying split tickets is to buy BOTH portions before boarding - you're never sure whether someone will come round to sell the second part and I'm sure there's something to be said for starting a journey from A to B without a full ticket to B even when you pass a ticket office at A!

A penalty fare is not a punishment, it's a higher-priced-than-usual ticket between two stations, and is the alternative to prosecution for genuine mistakes (such as yours - if you DIDN'T want to buy a ticket you wouldn't have been dealt with by way of a penalty fare!). By turning it down, you effectively opened the door for them to prosecute.

 

[Flamingo]

If you want to use split tickets, you need to have purchased the second ticket before the validity of the first ticket runs out - otherwise it's simply a case of short-fareing, and may be treated as such (especially by me).

That, along with the requirement for the train to actually stop at the station(s) involved (depending on ticket types) are the two pitfalls of split ticketing that may negate the savings...

 

[Hadders]

Why didn't you buy your St Albans-Luton Airport Parkway ticket the same time as you bought your first ticket?

Any station can sell a ticket to or from any destination. Alternatively you may wish to purchase on-line and collect them from the ticket vending machine. You can collect tickets from any TVM linked to the network (which is virtually all of them).

 

[Starmill]

You began your journey at Bearstead at 0558 on a weekday morning? Was the ticket office open at the time of your journey starting?

According to National Rail Enquiries, the ticket office at Bearstead opens at 0610 on weekdays. Therefore you presumably purchased a ticket you could at the first opportunity, the ticket machine, and wished to buy the subsequent one (s) at the first opportunity (this was not the machine, as I assume Southeastern machines can't sell tickets from other stations - confirmation of this, anyone?)

 

[bb21]

If you did not have a ticket beyond St Albans, you must detrain at St Albans and purchase a ticket for onward travel there. If you do not, you are simply over-riding, which is an offence.

It is irrelevant what you wanted to do, you did not have a valid ticket beyond St Albans. Should this go down to a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, what you think matters little. Your actions would be interpreted for a decision on whether there was sufficient "intent". If you had simply bought a through ticket to Luton Airport Parkway none of this would have happened. If you want to play the system you must find out how to beforehand, otherwise you can find yourself in a sticky situation as you have now found out.

I don't see how you have any ground for complaint. You were offered a Penalty Fare as a recognition that you made a mistake with no suspicion of foul-play. You refused, so this matter has now escalated.

According to National Rail Enquiries, the ticket office at Bearstead opens at 0610 on weekdays. Therefore you presumably purchased a ticket you could at the first opportunity, the ticket machine, and wished to buy the subsequent one (s) at the first opportunity (this was not the machine, as I assume Southeastern machines can't sell tickets from other stations - confirmation of this, anyone?)

Blackfriars would have been a good opportunity for a start if there were no opportunity at Bearsted, with the ticket office open at 0715.

 

[jkdd77]

If you did not have a ticket beyond St Albans, you must detrain at St Albans and purchase a ticket for onward travel there. If you do not, you are simply over-riding, which is an offence.

It is irrelevant what you wanted to do, you did not have a valid ticket beyond St Albans. Should this go down to a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, what you think matters little. Your actions would be interpreted for a decision on whether there was sufficient "intent". If you had simply bought a through ticket to Luton Airport Parkway none of this would have happened. If you want to play the system you must find out how to beforehand, otherwise you can find yourself in a sticky situation as you have now found out.

I don't see how you have any ground for complaint. You were offered a Penalty Fare as a recognition that you made a mistake with no suspicion of foul-play. You refused, so this matter has now escalated.



Blackfriars would have been a good opportunity for a start if there were no opportunity at Bearsted, with the ticket office open at 0715.

I will bow to your superior knowledge, but I was previously told by ticket office staff in a similar situation that, given that the relevant TVMs only sold tickets from that station, NRCoC Condition 3 would apply if the ticket office was closed, and I wished to buy split tickets, such that I could buy the second ticket on board the train. I was also told that, whilst I would be obliged to buy the second ticket at the first opportunity after boarding, there would be no requirement to delay myself by leaving the train at the next station, being the destination station printed on my first split ticket, if I had no such opportunity to buy before then.

In the event, I arrived at the station shortly before the ticket office closed for the evening, so the question did not arise, as I was after all able to buy my preferred split tickets from the ticket office.

If the OP genuinely had no opportunity onboard either train, and could not have purchased a ticket at Blackfriars without delaying him or herself, it seems arguable to me that his/her action were permitted by, and in accordance with, the NRCoC.

The question of whether a passenger is obliged to delay himself or herself at an intermediate station in order to buy a ticket which he/ she could not have purchased at his/ her departure station has been discussed before on this forum, but I don't believe that any definitive conclusion was reached.

 

[tony6499]

I will bow to your superior knowledge, but I was previously told by ticket office staff in a similar situation that, given that the relevant TVMs only sold tickets from that station, NRCoC Condition 3 would apply if the ticket office was closed, and I wished to buy split tickets, such that I could buy the second ticket on board the train. I was also told that, whilst I would be obliged to buy the second ticket at the first opportunity after boarding, there would be no requirement to delay myself by leaving the train at the next station, being the destination station printed on my first split ticket, if I had no such opportunity to buy before then.

In the event, I arrived at the station shortly before the ticket office closed for the evening, so the question did not arise, as I was after all able to buy my preferred split tickets from the ticket office.

If the OP genuinely had no opportunity onboard either train, and could not have purchased a ticket at Blackfriars without delaying him or herself, it seems arguable to me that his/her action were permitted by, and in accordance with, the NRCoC.

The question of whether a passenger is obliged to delay himself or herself at an intermediate station in order to buy a ticket which he/ she could not have purchased at his/ her departure station has been discussed before on this forum, but I don't believe that any definitive conclusion was reached.

The OP had every chance to buy his ticket through to his destination but he didn't so your argument doesn't make sense

 

[Starmill]

I think jkdd has covered relevant points. What happened at Blackfiriars, OP? Some dissapointing assertions from bb21. The wording of condition 3 is quite clear.

The OP must be clear about where they were able to pay. Are the trains without guards or other revenue staff? Were any other facilities available at your origin to issue the tickets you need, other than the machine you used? Specifically what happened when you changed?

 

[bb21]

I cannot advise the OP to challenge the case without further grounds for mitigation. Had the OP investigated the situation at Blackfriars and found that there was no opportunity to pay then there may be some form of mitigation on the grounds of no opportunity to purchase the second ticket, but if the OP did not investigate, then I think all bets are off. Five minutes (even assuming that the OP needs to start proceeding towards the platform at 0720 to be in position for his train when it arrives) should be more than sufficient to purchase a simple point-to-point ticket.

That is without getting into any discussion as to whether the OP had an opportunity to purchase a valid ticket for his journey at the origin station.

Without any reason to believe the contrary, the fact that Blackfriars has a ticket office open at 0715, and that the train the OP requires is not due to leave until 0724 (which I believe is the train the OP was referring to given that there was no 0726 from Blackfriars), it would be difficult to argue that there was no opportunity to pay. The OP's train arrived at 0707, so he would have also had ample time to make it to the ticket office, which is directly at the bottom of the escalators leading to the platforms.

Unless there is further mitigation that I am not aware of, I am unable to recommend challenging the prosecution, if it were to come to that.

I think jkdd has covered relevant points. What happened at Blackfiriars, OP? Some dissapointing assertions from bb21. The wording of condition 3 is quite clear.

The OP must be clear about where they were able to pay. Are the trains without guards or other revenue staff? Were any other facilities available at your origin to issue the tickets you need, other than the machine you used? Specifically what happened when you changed?

The wording of Condition 3 is clear, but so are the opening hours of Blackfriars station ticket office.

It is for the OP to put forward any mitigation he might have, not for me to put it in his mouth. If he does not offer any in relation to that point, then I can only assume that he did not investigate the situation at Blackfriars, which is a major issue.

 

[najaB]

The question of whether a passenger is obliged to delay himself or herself at an intermediate station in order to buy a ticket which he/ she could not have purchased at his/ her departure station has been discussed before on this forum, but I don't believe that any definitive conclusion was reached.

As I understand it, there were ticket vending facilities available at the start of the OP's journey. They chose not to buy a ticket that covered the journey they intended to take.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There is a separate offence here that overrides condition 3 in this particular circumstance:

Penalty on passengers practising frauds on the company.

if any person knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage, every such person shall for every such offence forfeit a sum not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not quite sure what happened at St Pancras. According to the recent train times website neither of your trains was more than a couple of minutes late at St Pancras.

Is this website wrong?

If not you should have had at least 15 minutes to get a ticket there before getting the 0726.

(I think bb21's suggestion that 5 minutes is enough is a bit tight, but 15 should certainly be plenty).

 

[bb21]

(I think bb21's suggestion that 5 minutes is enough is a bit tight, but 15 should certainly be plenty).

The "5 minutes" was simply for buying the ticket, excluding the time taken to get to and from the ticket office, and any waiting time in queues (since we don't know whether there was one).

If all else is included then it could indeed be pretty tight.

 

[Rich McLean]

Best advice I can give for the future is if you wish to spli, buy your tickets before hand online and leave ample time to collect. If you rock up and only a TVM is available then you have to buy a through ticket unless you detrain at the split point and buy the next ticket

 

[crehld]

I will bow to your superior knowledge, but I was previously told by ticket office staff in a similar situation that, given that the relevant TVMs only sold tickets from that station, NRCoC Condition 3 would apply if the ticket office was closed, and I wished to buy split tickets, such that I could buy the second ticket on board the train. I was also told that, whilst I would be obliged to buy the second ticket at the first opportunity after boarding, there would be no requirement to delay myself by leaving the train at the next station, being the destination station printed on my first split ticket, if I had no such opportunity to buy before then.

In the event, I arrived at the station shortly before the ticket office closed for the evening, so the question did not arise, as I was after all able to buy my preferred split tickets from the ticket office.

If the OP genuinely had no opportunity onboard either train, and could not have purchased a ticket at Blackfriars without delaying him or herself, it seems arguable to me that his/her action were permitted by, and in accordance with, the NRCoC.

The question of whether a passenger is obliged to delay himself or herself at an intermediate station in order to buy a ticket which he/ she could not have purchased at his/ her departure station has been discussed before on this forum, but I don't believe that any definitive conclusion was reached.

This happened to me. I wanted to split a journey but having waited in the ticket office queue for over 15 minutes I gave up and picked up the first portion from a TVM so not to miss the train I allowed plenty of time for. The guard never came round (not a busy train) and by the time we made it to the splitting point I actively sought out a member of staff to sell me a ticket. This turned out to be an RPI who issued a penalty fare instead as apparently I should have alighted at the splitting point. I appealed, and won on the grounds that the long wait at the ticket office constituted a lack of opportunity to buy an appropriate ticket for my journey and that alighting the train is unnecessary when the passenger intends to combine tickets in line with the NRCoC. I also received a separate letter of apology from South West Trains which confirmed I was incorrectly issued the penalty fare, that I should have been sold a ticket on board to complete my journey without having to disembark and the reason I wasn't was because the guard failed to walk through the train, and a commitment that staff would be trained appropriately.

This said the OP isn't helping their cause by refusing the PF - from the TOC perspective it doesn't give the impression of a passenger willing to pay!

Edit: my experience of course doesn't involve a change of trains as the OP's situation did.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The circumstances regarding the absence of facilities may exempt one from penalty fares (I can't remember). They do not exempt one from the RCCA offence

 

[bb21]

That is good to hear and I believe it is the correct decision as a passenger who spent 15 minutes in the queue has demonstrated clear intention to pay. Tickets available from the ticket office should not be withdrawn from a passenger who made every effort to pay but couldn't in my opinion, and said passenger should not be unduly inconvenienced because of a failure on the train company's part.

Nevertheless as you pointed out, this case has little bearing on the OP's because he did have an opportunity to pay en route, without anything pointing to the contrary.

 

[crehld]

The circumstances regarding the absence of facilities may exempt one from penalty fares (I can't remember). They do not exempt one from the RCCA offence

The key phrase is "knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect". Given the OP claims they intended to purchase another ticket and actively sought one at their destination, there appears to be no willful attempt to defraud the TOC, thus there is no RCCA offence - or at least there would not be if a court believed the OP's version of events. The OP may have been foolish, but this doesn't necessarily mean an attempt to defraud. Of course, the OP's refusal of a penalty fare really isn't helping them make this argument!

 

[PermitToTravel]

The key phrase is "knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect". Given the OP claims they intended to purchase another ticket and actively sought one at their destination, there appears to be no willful attempt to defraud the TOC, thus there is no RCCA offence - or at least there would not be if a court believed the OP's version of events. The OP may have been foolish, but this doesn't necessarily mean an attempt to defraud. Of course, the OP's refusal of a penalty fare really isn't helping them make this argument!

You've snipped the key part in half! "knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage". There is no defence in intending to later purchase more tickets.

 

[crehld]

You've snipped the key part in half! "knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage". There is no defence in intending to later purchase more tickets.

But this only applies to "passengers practising frauds on the company", so proof of a willlful attempt to defraud is a necessary prerequisite. This article of the Act merely sets out the penalty for this particular type of fraud and only applies if such fraud has been proved.

 

[Crossover]

Without any reason to believe the contrary, the fact that Blackfriars has a ticket office open at 0715, and that the train the OP requires is not due to leave until 0724 (which I believe is the train the OP was referring to given that there was no 0726 from Blackfriars), it would be difficult to argue that there was no opportunity to pay. The OP's train arrived at 0707, so he would have also had ample time to make it to the ticket office, which is directly at the bottom of the escalators leading to the platforms.

Unless there is further mitigation that I am not aware of, I am unable to recommend challenging the prosecution, if it were to come to that.

I do feel this could be a slight sticking point, especially given the PF nature of the area

As I understand it, there were ticket vending facilities available at the start of the OP's journey. They chose not to buy a ticket that covered the journey they intended to take.

They bought the first but may not have been able to buy the second. The issue mentioned above may be a sticking point though, otherwise I feel the OP was in the fight, if the story being told is accurate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Today I wrote back explaining the situation and that it was always my wish and intention to pay. I explained that my train fares are paid as expenses by by employer and that I have no personal gain if I avoid fares. I wrote to Thameslink to complain that evening.

I just want the best fares possible and do not understand the silly pricing structure.

Whilst I can understand trying to save your employer some money (I'm sure many others have and I have before now too), I would possibly suggest that this may not be the way to do it if it's going to land you personally in hot water and cause you extra complication in buying multiple tickets so early in a morning with no direct gain for yourself.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But this only applies to "passengers practising frauds on the company", so proof of a willlful attempt to defraud is a necessary prerequisite. This article of the Act merely sets out the penalty for this particular type of fraud and only applies if such fraud has been proved.

It can be clearly seen in the original print copy of the Act (page 34, part CIII) that that is just the title describing the section, and not a rule or qualification.

 

[bb21]

Whilst I can understand trying to save your employer some money (I'm sure many others have and I have before now too), I would possibly suggest that this may not be the way to do it if it's going to land you personally in hot water and cause you extra complication in buying multiple tickets so early in a morning with no direct gain for yourself.

I concur with that. The employer probably won't be overly fussed over £4, but may not be very impressed if you turned a straight-forward claim into something more complex.

 

[crehld]

It can be clearly seen in the original print copy of the Act (page 34, part CIII) that that is just the title describing the section, and not a rule or qualification.

Reading the whole paragraph in context merely confirms intent to avoid payment (ie fraud) is a necessary precondition for an offence to be committed!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Very sorry, I think you may be correct: legislation.gov.uk states that the sections mandating fraudulent intent were repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act 1892. Said site does not contain the Statute Law Revision Act 1892, but irishstatutebook.ie says that the SLRA 1892 repealed s. 103 up 'to “thereof, or” where those words last occur.'. The SLRA 1892 was repealed in its entirety by the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1998 here. I was confused because legislation.gov.uk has updated the RCCA for the 1892 repeal, but not again for the 1998 repeal of the repeal.

If the original RCCA still applies then I do not know of any offences that the OP has committed, and accordingly I believe that condition 3 of the NRCoC applies. I apologise for the misinformation

Lastly I'd state that my blood alcohol content is a few times higher than that of someone one'd ought be happy to take advice from, and that it's probably wise to disregard anything I've said tonight

 

[Andrew1395]

If the OP was prosecuted the case resolves around a simple fact. At the Origin Station was it possible to buy a ticket to the destination. Answer yes. The second point is why did OP travel to Luton but only paid to St Albans? Awnser I think I could save money by not buying a ticket to my intended destination.

 

[najaB]

If the OP was prosecuted the case resolves around a simple fact. At the Origin Station was it possible to buy a ticket to the destination. Answer yes. The second point is why did OP travel to Luton but only paid to St Albans? Awnser I think I could save money by not buying a ticket to my intended destination.

I think most prosecutors would see it that way as well. How do they know that the OP's intention wasn't to buy a short fare when they arrived at Luton Parkway?

 

[island]

Reading the whole paragraph in context merely confirms intent to avoid payment (ie fraud) is a necessary precondition for an offence to be committed!

No it does not. The Interpretation Act states that titles and subtitles within legislation are for reading convenience only and not to be read as limiting (or extending) the scope of the law itself.

 

[maniacmartin]

Under section 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, you are permitted to buy a ticket covering only part of your journey if (and only if) tickets you want are not available for purchase at the origin station, as long as you purchase the rest of of the tickets or part-exchange to the correct ticket at the first reasonable opportunity. As Bearsted ticket office opened at 06:10, you were fine boarding the train with the only part of the split you could get from the TVM.

Here is the running information for the first train, which shows it actually arriving at Blackfriars at 07:03. I know that you claim the train actually arrived later, but these are the records that the Train Operating Company will use and bring up in court, and unless you have any evidence to the contrary, it will be taken as fact that the train arrived on time.

Blackfriars ticket office is scheduled to open at 07:15 on weekdays, so I would say that would give you plenty of time to buy the tickets for the second half of your split. The only mitigation I can see here would be that the ticket office opened late (the TOC can check the login times to disprove this if untrue), or there was a massive queue at that time in the morning, which is somewhat unlikely.