Anomoly?

[momentum]

Without putting more fuel on the fire perhaps, the cheapest way from say Sheffield to Carlisle, would be to buy a CDR SHF-LDS and then use a CDR NCL-CAR as this would be valid to and from Leeds via Settle or even Newcastle?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, lets do a test then, I have taken a section of TOCs of which some have a vested interest in this ticket, if you are right, the journey planner of the train companies will say yes to Leeds. If I am right, they will all say NOT Leeds.

NORTHERN RAIL: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
FTPE: NOT Leeds
VIRGIN: NOT Leeds
NEEC: Leeds
FScR: NOT Leeds
CROSS COUNTRY: Leeds
SOUTHEASTERN: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
SOUTHERN: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
SOUTH WEST TRAINS: NOT Leeds
LONDON MIDLAND: NOT Leeds
ATW: NOT Leeds

So not exactly convincing is it?
I also note that some of these are powered by trainline yet imply "NOT Leeds"

Perhaps there is a lame excuse coming?..........Oh yes, they are interpretations. Would that be the case if you were right?

We could go on about this for years but we will never agree, so lets agree to disagree until everything agrees, which it never will.

 

[Ascot]

From http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/images/section_c_w.gif

Now take a picture of your version and do not come with all the not for public use cobblers.

Ring them up, ATOC, "YOUR OWN EMPLOYER" (Northern Rail), National Rail and ask.

 

[me123]

I have, like many others on the forum, a copy of Avantix Traveller NFM95. It's showing the "any permitted" tickets as being the only ones available. OK, it's a bit out of date (2006) but most of what it says is still pretty vaild. So I would imagine that the only reason some of these sites are refusing to sell the tickets is because they know how fliexable they are and hence they are potentially losing income* (note: this is a hypothesis).

I imagine that selling certain tickets or for certain routes is at the TOC's own discretion.

*(Presuming all revenue goes to Northern for this ticket, FTPE would be transporting passengers and getting a 0 return on it).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The cost of the ticket is split between all companies offering a service that is valid for the route in question, or part of it, except 7% which goes to the company selling the ticket.

Under the 'Electronic Routeing Guide' the recipients of the remainder would be:

- Northern (obviously)
- FTPE
- Virgin
- Crosscountry
- NEEC
- FScR
- ATW

However under the '96' paper copy they would be:

- Northern

Therefore the planners on FTPE, Virgin, Crosscountry, NEEC, FScR, ATW website should have no problem offering it, as in reality it will be bought somewhere that does do it, yet only two do.

Ticket offices are required to be 100% impartial on atleast 51% of the sales points open for business, regardless of location. This means any change to the routeing guide needs to be passed to ALL ticket offices, it means that ALL ticket machines MUST follow it to the letter, which clearly doesn't happen if ERG is to be believed.

This means any changes to the Routeing Guide, no matter how small, should be passed on to ALL ticket offices, no matter how small or insignificant, in paper form (as not all offices have internet access) and clearly that hasn't happened if the ERG is to be believed.

PS. I can't see map WY on the ERG, could you post it as I'd like to know where it is and what it covers?

 

[me123]

Here's WY:

Apologies for the width.

 

[yorkie]

Okay, lets do a test then, I have taken a section of TOCs of which some have a vested interest in this ticket, if you are right, the journey planner of the train companies will say yes to Leeds. If I am right, they will all say NOT Leeds.

Well, they don't, so you are not right. But it is irrelevant what they say anyway because it is the RG that is the only authoratitive source.

NORTHERN RAIL: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
FTPE: NOT Leeds
VIRGIN: NOT Leeds
NEEC: Leeds
FScR: NOT Leeds
CROSS COUNTRY: Leeds
SOUTHEASTERN: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
SOUTHERN: NOT Leeds (uses national rail)
SOUTH WEST TRAINS: NOT Leeds
LONDON MIDLAND: NOT Leeds
ATW: NOT Leeds

There are only 3 systems so your duplication is pointless.

The 3 systems are:
1) Nationalrail
2) Thetrainline (Used by most TOCs)
3) Atos Origin (NXEC)

Nationalrail doesn't actually sell tickets, so it's pointless using it as all it does is transfer you to another site when you want to make a purchase.

Thetrainline and Atos Origin's sites both accept that the ticket is valid via Leeds.

So not exactly convincing is it?

It is utterly convincing.

I also note that some of these are powered by trainline yet imply "NOT Leeds"

No they don't.

Perhaps there is a lame excuse coming?..........Oh yes, they are interpretations. Would that be the case if you were right?

they are interpretations.

We could go on about this for years but we will never agree, so lets agree to disagree until everything agrees, which it never will.

We won't agree to disagree because you are completely wrong and have totally misunderstood the RG.

From http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/images/section_c_w.gif

Now take a picture of your version and do not come with all the not for public use cobblers.

Ring them up, ATOC, "YOUR OWN EMPLOYER" (Northern Rail), National Rail and ask.

The troll will quietly ignore that request.

The cost of the ticket is split between all companies offering a service that is valid for the route in question, or part of it, except 7% which goes to the company selling the ticket.

Wrong. While the formulas that ORCATS uses are kept secret, we do know that only TOCs providing the fastest services get any revenue. If a service is overtaken it gets no revenue. So FCC only get London-Peterborough revenue for the services that are not overtaken by NXEC, so - in other words - a tiny proportion of the revenue. Back in the days of FGW/FGW Link, FGW Link would have got no revenue for London-Reading (unless there were some night trains that did not get overtaken in which case they'd get a tiny amount).

See http://www.competition-commission.o...5/firstinter/third_party_submission_orr_2.pdf for proof of this.

"
Revenue allocation does not correspond to loadings, and is purely timetable driven. Under ORCATS, revenue is always allocated to the fastest train, so even if a train is the second to leave the station, if it overtakes another, it receives the full allocation of revenue. ORCATS cannot take qualitative factors into account, for example, where passengers choose to take a slower train because it is perceived as better.
"

The fact a TOC gets no revenue through ORCATS for a ticket is irrelevant.

Under the 'Electronic Routeing Guide' the recipients of the remainder would be:

- Northern (obviously)
- FTPE
- Virgin
- Crosscountry
- NEEC
- FScR
- ATW

Wrong - only Northern would get the revenue because the others are slower, see above.

However under the '96' paper copy they would be:

- Northern

It is Northern under all circumstances regardless of the RG.

ORCATS IGNORES THE RG. ORCATS IS "PURELY TIMETABLE DRIVEN". See above.

Therefore the planners on FTPE, Virgin, Crosscountry, NEEC, FScR, ATW website should have no problem offering it, as in reality it will be bought somewhere that does do it, yet only two do.

Waffle.

Ticket offices are required to be 100% impartial on atleast 51% of the sales points open for business, regardless of location.

Wrong. Ticket offices are required to be 100% impartial at all times.

This means any change to the routeing guide needs to be passed to ALL ticket offices, it means that ALL ticket machines MUST follow it to the letter, which clearly doesn't happen if ERG is to be believed.

Are you incapable of downloading a PDF? The fact is there is no excuse for using a 12 year old copy.

This means any changes to the Routeing Guide, no matter how small, should be passed on to ALL ticket offices, no matter how small or insignificant, in paper form (as not all offices have internet access) and clearly that hasn't happened if the ERG is to be believed.

I agree it should.

 

[Ascot]

However under the '96' paper copy they would be:

- Northern

Are you stating that Northern would be listed in the 96 paper?

 

[yorkie]

Are you stating that Northern would be listed in the 96 paper?

<hairyhandedfool mode>Why, yes, Northern existed in 1996. Didn't you know that the railways have not changed in 1996? Well I've been in the industry since then and I can verify for the fact that the Mk1 EMUs are still going strong, I have never seen a Pendolino, the SRA never existed, the DfT has always been in charge of railways, Railtrack never existed and we've always had Network Rail, and everything is exactly as it was, and we never had that period of growth in the late 1990s. Yes, everything is just identical. I know all the sources of reference say otherwise, but what I say must be true, it doesn't matter how many people say it isn't. It's true if I say it and keep repeating it."</hairyhandedfool mode>

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are you stating that Northern would be listed in the 96 paper?

omg, seriously, take a chill pill.

oh incidentally.......

.....Ring them up, ........National Rail and ask.

"Thank you for your eMail.

Having looked into the point you make, we believe that the information in 'Journey Planner' is correct.

However, to enable us to answer your query fully, we have contacted our Technical Support Team, who are currently investigating the issues you have raised.

As soon as the investigation results are returned, we will contact you with a more specific response.

I would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused and would like to thank you for your patience and co-operation whilst we resolve this issue.

Regards,

Chris Tabb
Customer Services
www.nationalrail.co.uk"

Very clarified then? cos everyone follows the RG! When there is a further response to this I will post it. I am still awaiting a response from Northern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nationalrail doesn't actually sell tickets, so it's pointless using it as all it does is transfer you to another site when you want to make a purchase....

so they have no reason not to quote the fare then?

....It is utterly convincing....

In what way is 2 out of 7 agreeing with you convincing?

....Wrong. Ticket offices are required to be 100% impartial at all times....

ON 51% OF THE AVAILABLE SALES WINDOWS. EG. if there are 3 sales windows 2 MUST be 100% impartial, the third can have restricted selling power. If one of the first 2 close the third MUST sell all tickets untill a third one opens. Hence how some stations have restricted selling from some sales windows in the same office for the same company. Or perhaps this is another rule that was changed without telling anyone!

....Are you incapable of downloading a PDF? The fact is there is no excuse for using a 12 year old copy.

Not all ticket offices have had internet access and not everyone who works in ticket offices has a computer at home, internet access or the inclination to find documents that should be provided for them. Logically therefore, there will be places where there is no access to the web to or to any 'real'* information. As there is a requirement to have this document, they must provide a paper copy untill all offices have this access and should inform the staff of any change to it.

So if you think that it is okay for train companies to pile out information via email to staff without email adresses, or just let staff sort themselves out at home, without any access, then fine, go to a ticket office and let them give you the wrong ticket.

Oh wait a minute, I was completely forgetting that ATOC themselves send out information to stations, but wait, they wouldn't forget something as simple as the routeing guide, would they?

Lets also not forget that ATOC advise people to use nationalrail.co.uk for journey planning and you say they are wrong.

(*the term "'real' information" is used to define information found on the internet and bears no relation to the fact of it being right or wrong.)

Thanks for the map me123.

 

[Ascot]

omg, seriously, take a chill pill.

Thanks for the offer but if i start taking them i'll be horizontal than i already am. So you are saying they are in the 96 paper.

oh incidentally.......

So you have to contact the public side of things and NOT the staff side?

Very clarified then? cos everyone follows the RG! When there is a further response to this I will post it. I am still awaiting a response from Northern.

You could just turn up at work and send a picture of your magical routeing guide like i asked before but you ignore it. It's as clear as mud trying to compare a Journey Planner with the Routeing guide, next you'll be saying you cannot go to Kyle via Mallaig.

• Tickets issued between Glasgow/Edinburgh/Stirling or Falkirk and Kyle of Lochalsh may be used in one direction to travel on
the ’West Highland Line’ to/from Mallaig.

<All the below>

You are contradicting yourself now. Why don't you take a picture of your STATION Routeing Guide with the bits that say everyone is wrong on here apart from you. Do not say it is not for public use and do not say you are on holiday for the next week. And yes Station's do not get sent out all the Fares and retail manuals they get made up ones from Jo Blogs down the road.

Edit: Oh no hang on, in NFM98 Section R they even acknowledge the Routeing Guides purpose:

The National Routeing Guide came into effect in September 1996 and had the purpose of clarifying the “permitted routes” for
specific longer distance journeys. This was achieved through a networking of the mainlines (West Coast and East Coast). It was
acknowledged at the time that local instructions would be needed to fill the gap between the National Routeing Guide (Longer
Journeys) and the local journey variations peculiar to local operators.

So where you digging this from?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So you are saying they are in the 96 paper....

At no time did I say Northern were mentioned in the NRG.

....So you have to contact the public side of things and NOT the staff side?....

I didn't realise I worked for nationalrail.co.uk. Learn something new everyday.

....You could just turn up at work and send a picture of your magical routeing guide like i asked before but you ignore it. It's as clear as mud trying to compare a Journey Planner with the Routeing guide, next you'll be saying you cannot go to Kyle via Mallaig....

....Why don't you take a picture of your STATION Routeing Guide with the bits that say everyone is wrong on here apart from you.

Believe it or not, TOCs don't provide scanners to ticket offices and I don't own a scanner myself, or for that matter a digital camera, but why don't you 'just' visit a ticket office? Or is that too much leg work?

Do not say it is not for public use and do not say you are on holiday for the next week.

Why would I say that? I'm not as childish as you appear to be.

And yes Station's do not get sent out all the Fares and retail manuals they get made up ones from Jo Blogs down the road.

Does that even deserve comment?

Edit: Oh no hang on, in NFM98 Section R they even acknowledge the Routeing Guides purpose:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOC's National Fares Manual
The National Routeing Guide came into effect in September 1996 and had the purpose of clarifying the “permitted routes” for
specific longer distance journeys. This was achieved through a networking of the mainlines (West Coast and East Coast). It was
acknowledged at the time that local instructions would be needed to fill the gap between the National Routeing Guide (Longer
Journeys) and the local journey variations peculiar to local operators.

Hmmm......Section R.......Oh yes......SCOTLAND ROUTEING GUIDE, convenient that you should fail to mention that bit.

How relevant is that quote? Especially given that it doesn't appear in every one of the 8 manuals (NW, NTH, STH, etc) of the NFM that are sent to stations. I imagine it would only appear in the Scotland manual, as it is specific to Scotland.

PS. No-one has questioned the 'purpose' of the NRG.

 

[Ascot]

At no time did I say Northern were mentioned in the NRG.

See above

I didn't realise I worked for nationalrail.co.uk. Learn something new everyday.

Same with Northern

Believe it or not, TOCs don't provide scanners to ticket offices and I don't own a scanner myself, or for that matter a digital camera, but why don't you 'just' visit a ticket office? Or is that too much leg work?

Have done, Marston Green (yet again see above), just because you cannot provide evidence does not mean you have to cover it up. Maybe you could carry on and create your own little one at home and claim for it to be a Station Guide?

Why would I say that? I'm not as childish as you appear to be.

Well you have failed to provide evidence for the above and every time you make something up or change subject ever so quickly.

Does that even deserve comment?

Rate your going then i'm sure you got an excuse.

Hmmm......Section R.......Oh yes......SCOTLAND ROUTEING GUIDE, convenient that you should fail to mention that bit.

Doesn't matter if it is England Ireland Scotland or Wales you are failing to see it is part of the National Fares Manual and ATOC, sorry if you didn't understand but the point i was making was "ATOC recognise the Routeing guide as such now don't start with Scotland has different rules to the Rest of the network.

How relevant is that quote? Especially given that it doesn't appear in every one of the 8 manuals (NW, NTH, STH, etc) of the NFM that are sent to stations. I imagine it would only appear in the Scotland manual, as it is specific to Scotland.

Again i don't think you are quite understanding in ATOC say the routeing guide IS the de facto definition of Any Permitted.

PS. No-one has questioned the 'purpose' of the NRG.

You have still not proven evidence to show how we are all wrong and you are right. Maybe you need to start quoting facts?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

See above....

....Same with Northern....

I have already said that I have contacted the powers that be at Northern with, as yet, no response, How can I make that clearer?

....Have done, Marston Green....

They should have one, never mind, better luck next time.

Doesn't matter if it is England Ireland Scotland or Wales you are failing to see it is part of the National Fares Manual and ATOC, sorry if you didn't understand but the point i was making was "ATOC recognise the Routeing guide as such now don't start with Scotland has different rules to the Rest of the network.

No-one has said Scotland have different rules. Although technically, the exceptions do form a rule, which would not apply to the rest of us by virtue of the areas concerned, just a technicality though.

Not every Station has access to the Scotland book or the internet (as above). All that quote does is say there is a routeing guide and you should use it, but exceptions may exist for journeys in Scotland, which neither proves, nor disproves, anything.

No-one has questioned the 'purpose' of the NRG.

 

[Ascot]

I have already said that I have contacted the powers that be at Northern with, as yet, no response, How can I make that clearer?

You mean customer relations? Of course you was a driver and now you are the God of the routeing guide so you are the powers. Or as you say a professional. Why should you contact someone else when you SHOULD be able to provide the evidence to back you up, that is your job after all as a claimed professional.

They should have one, never mind, better luck next time.

It's called the National Routeing Guide they have and so do Moor St, Birmingham International (that's 3 TOC's there).

No-one has said Scotland have different rules. Although technically, the exceptions do form a rule, which would not apply to the rest of us by virtue of the areas concerned, just a technicality though.

So what is with all this gas?

Not every Station has access to the Scotland book or the internet (as above). All that quote does is say there is a routeing guide and you should use it, but exceptions may exist for journeys in Scotland, which neither proves, nor disproves, anything.

No-one has questioned the 'purpose' of the NRG.

Here you go from the ATOC site:

PURPOSE OF THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE

The National Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

Now can we have your evidence? You obviously have the Internet currently as to see this Forum.

Can we see your reference for Kemble is not valid?

Can we see your reference for Newcastle to Carlisle?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You mean customer relations? Of course you was a driver and now you are the God of the routeing guide so you are the powers. Or as you say a professional. Why should you contact someone else when you SHOULD be able to provide the evidence to back you up, that is your job after all as a claimed professional.

Firstly, I didn't say Customer Relations, I said the powers that be, and I do believe you said to contact them, so you could try to prove me wrong. I got an answer from national rail, the opposite answer to what you said I would, but have not received one from Northern yet. Do keep up.

Secondly, at no point did I say, specifically, that I was a professional, although it may have been implied, but it is nice that you think of me that way.

Thirdly, no matter how many references you pick from the various manuals, none have actually confirmed if you are right or wrong, but mearly state that there is a NRG and that it has a purpose.

So, incase you missed it the previous TWO TIMES:

NO-ONE IS QUESTIONING THE 'PURPOSE' OF THE NRG.

 

[Ascot]

Firstly, I didn't say Customer Relations, I said the powers that be, and I do believe you said to contact them, so you could try to prove me wrong. I got an answer from national rail, the opposite answer to what you said I would, but have not received one from Northern yet. Do keep up.

Then you should try ATOC or at least show some evidence instead of magically bringing conclusions out of thin air.

Secondly, at no point did I say, specifically, that I was a professional, although it may have been implied, but it is nice that you think of me that way.

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=208054&postcount=6 Are you not being big headed?

Thirdly, no matter how many references you pick from the various manuals, none have actually confirmed if you are right or wrong, but mearly state that there is a NRG and that it has a purpose.

And your reference to anything is? Where does it say the rule of Any Permitted apart from the NRG?

So, incase you missed it the previous TWO TIMES:

NO-ONE IS QUESTIONING THE 'PURPOSE' OF THE NRG.

Then why ask twice or are you trying to hide something as you are the only one to say/question purpose?

Again please provide evidence to back up everything you are trying to prove us wrong as we have the NATIONAL Routeing Guide and quoted it as to say this works and there is nothing else that says otherwise. As also said it is the one and only source for Any Permitted.

 

[Max]

Ok guys, let's calm this down please - it's turning into a bit of a flame war really!

If I take my moderating cap off for a minute, personally, I would 100% agree with Yorkie and Ascot (though that doesn't mean I endorse all of the latter's comments). The routeing guide clearly states that all of the routes previously stated are valid.

'hairyhandedfool', I'm not sure where you are getting all your information from. If you're a driver, why are you making such a massive fuss about a simple routeing issue? Personally, I'm a little disappointed, because if you do work for Northern, I generally find their staff to be very friendly, and tend to use common sense when applying the routeing guide instead of being penickity jobsworths like some other TOCs. Also, if you did work for the railways, I'm confused as to why you have to go through public lines of enquiry. Surely you have access to internal numbers and such like? And additionally, you can't trust those journey planners at all. For example, for months, 'thetrainline' refused to give railcard discounts on the Doncaster-Peterborough CDR (weekend only), despite a number of complaints to them. Obviously this isn't routeing, but I'm just using it as an example to show that they're not always right.

Finally, 'hairyhandedfool', STOP being so argumentative and provocative. The only thing you have seemed to do in your 29 posts is argue with or have a go at another member. As far as I can see, this was your only reason to come onto the forum.

 

[yorkie]

Hmmm......Section R.......Oh yes......SCOTLAND ROUTEING GUIDE, convenient that you should fail to mention that bit.

It does not replace the Routeing Guide, it supplements it. It does not define the rules for determining mapped permitted routes.

Do you accept that the current version of the RG is online yet? I can't be bothered to continue this discussion until you accept that basic fact.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Also, if you did work for the railways, I'm confused as to why you have to go through public lines of enquiry. Surely you have access to internal numbers and such like? And additionally, you can't trust those journey planners at all. For example, for months, 'thetrainline' refused to give railcard discounts on the Doncaster-Peterborough CDR (weekend only), despite a number of complaints to them. Obviously this isn't routeing, but I'm just using it as an example to show that they're not always right.

Since the split up of the railways in 1996 railway companies have kept the majority of internal numbers to themselves leaving staff just their own companies numbers, making enquiries to other companies harder. Frontline staff most commonly use Customer Services for contact to other companies as it is easier than spending 2 hours looking for a specific person or department. Hence it was easier to go through public channels for national rail. My inquiry to Northern has used an internal line of enquiry, but there is still no response to it.

I agree I cannot always be right, and maybe I am wrong, but bear in mind that until a couple of months ago I didn't have internet access, even at work, and even after that, there was no reason to believe the NRG could have changed as there were no internal documents to support that. I still believe the ERG is a tool for joe public, rather than a definitive guide, as the tools I have at my disposal contradict it, but do not contradict the guide I have seen in paper. That is not to say that the ERG is totally wrong. I cannot question the purpose of the NRG, which I believe was some peoples interpretation of my posts, but that the ERG was different to the NRG I have at my disposal.

My purpose for using the Journey Planners was to illustrate that there are others that agree with the NRG I have, rather than support the ERG. The first mention of that particular site was not by me and was used to illustrate the opposite, my later post involving that site was in contradiction, based on the same site, used by train companies for a journey planner.

Finally, 'hairyhandedfool', STOP being so argumentative and provocative. The only thing you have seemed to do in your 29 posts is argue with or have a go at another member. As far as I can see, this was your only reason to come onto the forum.

I have not entered this forum with the intention of causing an arguement and if that is how it seems then I can only apologise. Indeed, if that were the case, it would not be confined to 2 threads on routeing. I also believe the it takes 2 to argue and that the provocation was not just on my side. I had, at one point, tried to stop one of the threads spiralling into a slanging match by simply saying that we cannot agree, only to be met by 'you are wrong and you must admit it now'.

There was also a post of another member that was out of hand and childish at best. I do not wish to cause more arguements and so I will not post on this subject until it has been made clear, by my company, which guide I should refer to, unless both guides agree.

It is my hope that we can draw a line under this and move on.

 

[yorkie]

Oh, come on. This is just plain daft. It is very clear from the ATOC site that the Routeing Guide is online and up-to-date.

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp

"The National Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route"."

It does not say "This is just a tool for passengers to have a rough idea however it can be overruled by some document from 1996 and the RG has not changed in 12 years but we update this website for the fun of it and for no reason" (!!!)

Saying that a 1996 copy is still valid is like saying that the current Rail staff travel pages on the ATOC site are not valid because they are "some internet page" and that some photocopy in 1996 takes precedence. Or that a leaflet about a family railcard in 1996 with the £2 flat fare for kids takes priority over the current family railcard website because it's "just some web page".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Right, I have just said that I not going to post on this subject, in the above post, until I have confirmation of which guide I should use. Your post is an attempt to carry on the discussion, and is therefore provocative and arguementative, but apparently I am the only one guilty of that.

 

[Ascot]

Right, I have just said that I not going to post on this subject, in the above post, until I have confirmation of which guide I should use. Your post is an attempt to carry on the discussion, and is therefore provocative and arguementative, but apparently I am the only one guilty of that.

Any clear evidence to show what you are reading and quoting to us will be great as this is the first time anyone has said the complete opposite. Maybe any other TOC to have this would be better however I have only checked 4 and they all have what is on the National Routeing Guide.

 

[Tom C]

Any clear evidence to show what you are reading and quoting to us will be great as this is the first time anyone has said the complete opposite. Maybe any other TOC to have this would be better however I have only checked 4 and they all have what is on the National Routeing Guide.

Before I make my comment I want to make it clear that I am not trying to take sides or make an arguement and its simply an observation.

I have been a booking office clerk and a booking office manager. Despite being in Revenue I am still fully booking office trained.

The hard copies of the Routing Guide in every booking office that I have worked in (and its plenty!) during my time have all been the rail settlement plan version which was introduced back in 1996. At no point in nearly 8 years has this been updated in ANY office, nor has there been any communication from ATOC that booking offices should refer to the online version which in the case of my TOC would be impossible as no booking offices have access to the internet.

Most TOC's seem to use RJIS or varients of it to do reservations and journey plans and this is based on the NRG so I would suggest that this is updated regularly.

The thing that is very important is although the journey planners are based on the NRG there has never been any communication from ATOC to withdraw the hard copy of the NRG so should a routing query come in (never had one, I might add!) I would think that ATOC would expect a clerk to use the hard copy. I should also note that I was never trained to use the routing guide even back in the days of APTIS and SPORTIS and I only know how to use it because I take an interest in the railway and taught myself on a quiet day.

 

[Ascot]

Now that clears things up better

 

[yorkie]

Tom C - your post clarifies just how incompetent ATOC are, by not giving the latest edition of the RG to stations.

The fact that stations have an ancient copy is a disgrace.

Nevertheless, these old copies are no longer valid, in the same way that an NRT from 1996 or a NFM from 1996 are no longer valid.

The fact they have not been updated is an internal railway matter and does not affect the contract that customers have with the Railway.

The OP's employers have stated their intention to "get the RG changed" therefore they accept that the RG can be changed, therefore they do not share the view of the OP that the RG is, and always shall be, the same as it was since 1996.

 

[Tom C]

Tom C - your post clarifies just how incompetent ATOC are, by not giving the latest edition of the RG to stations.

The fact that stations have an ancient copy is a disgrace.

Nevertheless, these old copies are no longer valid, in the same way that an NRT from 1996 or a NFM from 1996 are no longer valid.

The fact they have not been updated is an internal railway matter and does not affect the contract that customers have with the Railway.

The retail manuals at many booking offices are also woefully out of date. For those who don't the retail manual is an information guide for booking offices incase of queries on TOC's that they may not be familier with and also gives issuing instructions for tickets which may be requested but clerks would not be familier with (i.e Rovers) and also used to include barcodes for APTIS machines for ticket types not held on the WPC. One I looked through recently still has First North Western, Arriva Trains Northern, Arriva Merseyrail, Anglia, LTS and even Connex South Eastern which are all long passed into history. Its also not been updated with new TOC's like FCC!!!!!!.

My point is that clerks can only work with the materials they have infront of them and its the fault of ATOC for not reissuing the Routing Guide or even to issue instructions to use the internet which is quite possible seeing as most new ticket issuing systems are PC based.

 

[me123]

To be fair, the vast majority of updates are probably trivial and could be added manually to the routeing guide by way of correspondance; ie ATOC tell the TOCs who subsequently tell ticket staff that map XZ should no longer carry such and such a route or the addition of an easement. The manuals can then be edited by hand with the route scored out or the easement stapled in.

Judging by the vast changes since 96, however, I am surprised that new guides haven't been issued. OK, many stations sell mostly local tickets: Blairhill sells mostly Glasgow tickets with most of the rest being for elsewhere on the same route and hence doesn't need a routeing guide as often as, say Glasgow Central would. But still, when 12yo and clearly out of date copies are out there, well it's just not fair to the traveller really.

 

[Ascot]

However has the Newcastle to Carlisle and Birmingham to Swindon always been the same today as the 96 one or was they once a straight route only?

 

[Tom C]

To be fair, the vast majority of updates are probably trivial and could be added manually to the routeing guide by way of correspondance; ie ATOC tell the TOCs who subsequently tell ticket staff that map XZ should no longer carry such and such a route or the addition of an easement. The manuals can then be edited by hand with the route scored out or the easement stapled in.

Point is ATOC have never sent any updates on the routing guide so that we can adjust our copies with a pen!. As far as the common clerk is concerned the routing guide is current and correct and unless they are told otherwise how are they expected to know no matter how trivial.