XC enforcing invisible reservations

[embers25]

A friend of mine was on XC the other day and the guard was announcing that despite the reservation system not working that reservations still applied and if a person came to your seat with a reservation you would be required ot vacate it which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[yorkie]

A friend of mine was on XC the other day and the guard was announcing that despite the reservation system not working that reservations still applied and if a person came to your seat with a reservation you would be required ot vacate it which is absolutely ridiculous.

Please ask your friend to complain, as this is a problem apparently unique to XC.

I agree it is ridiculous and most people I know who have expressed an opinion seem to be of the same view, though one member in particular disagrees with us and does want invisible reservations to be enforced (see Voyager reservations - failing again!!)

If there are no reservations, then there are no reservations, and that should be the end of that. That's how other operators work!

I've only ever known XC enforce invisible reservations. A passenger travelling on a long distance journey could potentially be asked to move numerous times throughout their journey. Even on a short journey e.g. York-Sheffield you could be asked to move 3 times (once shortly after York, again at Leeds and again at Wakefield)

 

[221129]

Please ask your friend to complain, as this is a problem apparently unique to XC.

I agree it is ridiculous and most people I know who have expressed an opinion seem to be of the same view, though one member in particular disagrees with us and does want invisible reservations to be enforced (see Voyager reservations - failing again!!)

If there are no reservations, then there are no reservations, and that should be the end of that. That's how other operators work!

I've only ever known XC enforce invisible reservations. A passenger travelling on a long distance journey could potentially be asked to move numerous times throughout their journey. Even on a short journey e.g. York-Sheffield you could be asked to move 3 times (once shortly after York, again at Leeds and again at Wakefield)

If the TM says there are Reservations then surely that is what passengers will believe?

 

[najaB]

If there are no reservations, then there are no reservations, and that should be the end of that. That's how other operators work!

Looking at it from the other side - the failure of the reservations to display doesn't negate the fact that people have reserved tickets. Nor does it invalidate the printed reservation coupon held by passengers who have reserved seats.

More than once travelling with XC and VT reservations have failed to display at the start of the journey, but the system has been rebooted along the way. Would you still say that reservations should be ignored - even for passengers who join the train after the displays start working?

 

[thealexweb]

If the TM says there are Reservations then there are reservations. No complaint will change that as the TM is in charge of their own train.

There is no by-law that requires a passenger to move though. The TM can huff and puff but what can they really do other than ask politely?

 

[greatkingrat]

In that case you can refer the TM to Bylaw 19

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

If there are no notices indicating a particular seat is reserved, then I am not sure under what basis you could be removed from that seat.

 

[221129]

The TM must adhere to the policies of the relevant Train Company. I've never known any other Company have this policy, other than XC.

It's impossible to enforce invisible reservations, The TM cannot force people to move as XC themselves admit:



A Guard I know has confirmed they have no power of removal, so if a Guard makes the decision to apply invisible reservations, they can't actually enforce it.

I didn't say I agree with it, however the TM is in charge of the train at the end of the day.

 

[yorkie]

If the TM says there are Reservations then there are reservations. No complaint will change that as the TM is in charge of their own train.

The TM must adhere to the policies of the relevant Train Company. I've never known any other Company have this policy, other than XC.

It's impossible to enforce invisible reservations, The TM cannot force people to move as XC themselves admit:

we always tell our staff to not get drawn into conflict so if said person refuses we have no power to physically remove them from that seat.

A Guard I know has confirmed they have no power of removal, so if a Guard makes the decision to apply invisible reservations, they can't actually enforce it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no by-law that requires a passenger to move though. The TM can huff and puff but what can they really do other than ask politely?

Nothing.

If there are no notices indicating a particular seat is reserved, then I am not sure under what basis you could be removed from that seat.

They cannot remove them.

But they can make the person feel awkward and create an unpleasant atmosphere.

 

[47802]

Looking at it from the other side - the failure of the reservations to display doesn't negate the fact that people have reserved tickets. Nor does it invalidate the printed reservation coupon held by passengers who have reserved seats.

More than once travelling with XC and VT reservations have failed to display at the start of the journey, but the system has been rebooted along the way. Would you still say that reservations should be ignored - even for passengers who join the train after the displays start working?

Well lets put this way I wouldn't willing to move for XC incompetence. If there's no reservation displayed for that seat at the start of my journey then as far as i'm concerned it has no reservation end of.

 

[221129]

Well lets put this way I wouldn't willing to move for XC incompetence.

And again what if the screens come on further along the journey?

 

[47802]

And again what if the screens come on further along the journey?

I think my comment is quite clear I would not be moving, even in the days of manual reservations when they have been incorrectly done I have been very reluctant to move, its a case of why should I move for the railways incompetence, obviously if an elderly person or a women with children that has the reservation then I might make an exception, and if the train manager want to argue the toss about it or call the police then that's fine by me.

 

[221129]

but by this point wouldn't Bylaw 19 then apply? Not trying to argue more trying to understand.

 

[najaB]

but by this point wouldn't Bylaw 19 then apply? Not trying to argue more trying to understand.

Yes, it would.

 

[yorkie]

but by this point wouldn't Bylaw 19 then apply? Not trying to argue more trying to understand.

If the reservation system subsequently becomes active, that is a grey area. It is unclear if Condition 19 means a passenger is required to regularly check a display, but I would suggest not. I would suggest some reasonableness would have to be applied by people affected in this case.

But if the system remains down, then it is clear to me the train does not have reservations, and that's what applies with East Coast and TransPennine always every time I'm on one of their affected trains. Compensation may be available if passengers who reserved a seat have to stand. The Train Manager may, at their discretion, upgrade such a passenger to 1st class if it's viable to avoid any need for compensation and to keep the passenger happy (I've known that happen).

XC seem quite unique in their application of invisible reservations, where TMs appear to be encouraged to ask people vacate apparently unreserved seats, but can't actually make them move and are also required to avoid conflict, despite being asked to apply a policy that clearly causes conflict by imposing unreasonable requests on unsuspecting passengers.

 

[47802]

but by this point wouldn't Bylaw 19 then apply? Not trying to argue more trying to understand.

Possibly I had a heated argument with a guard over a seat reservation that wasn't labelled years ago and the guard backed down eventually, perhaps just as well I don't travel on XC much these days.

 

[221129]

If the reservation system subsequently becomes active, that is a grey area. It is unclear if Condition 19 means a passenger is required to regularly check a display, but I would suggest not. I would suggest some reasonableness would have to be applied by people affected in this case.

But if the system remains down, then it is clear to me the train does not have reservations, and that's what East Coast and TransPennine always do every time I'm on one of their affected trains. Compensation may be available if passengers who reserved a seat have to stand. The Train Manager may, at their discretion, upgrade such a passenger to 1st class if it's viable to avoid that problem (I've known that happen).

XC seem quite unique in their application of invisible reservations, where TMs appear to be encouraged to ask people vacate apparently unreserved seats, but can't actually make them move and are also required to avoid conflict, despite being asked to apply a policy that clearly causes conflict by imposing unreasonable requests on unsuspecting passengers.

Yeah that does seem rather ridiculous.

 

[najaB]

If the reservation system subsequently becomes active, that is a grey area. It is unclear if Condition 19 means a passenger is required to regularly check a display, but I would suggest not. I would suggest some reasonableness would have to be applied by people affected in this case.

I don't see it as a legal grey area - the wording of the Byelaw says that "...no person shall remain in any seat..." which to me means that once the reservation system is working and this is pointed out, the passenger would be in violation if they continued to occupy the seat. I agree that reasonableness should apply and wouldn't expect the passenger to be in trouble if no announcement was made to check the displays.

 

[unlevel42]

Travelling XC from Bournemouth to Sheffield.
Carriage empty at Bournemouth apart from 4 people- and yes two are occupying our reserved seats but there are none shown on display.

Do I ask them to move? -no it would be silly.

At Leamington Spa my surname appeared with destination on display I suppose because I had had to re book the reservation post landslide.

PS Because of football fans was only just able to get on the train let alone find a seat on the return trip between Sheffield and Derby (non-stop). Compensation?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Compensation may be available if passengers who reserved a seat have to stand. The Train Manager may, at their discretion, upgrade such a passenger to 1st class if it's viable to avoid any need for compensation and to keep the passenger happy (I've known that happen).

And herein lies the crux of the problem, I suggest.

Money.

I am well aware of the penny pinching of TOCS at the moment, especially ones that find themselves in these situations often - rolling stock resources vastly inadequate for the job at hand, constant pressure to cut costs and save money, lots of delays and other things all meaning that compensation needs to be paid regularly.

As NRCoC clearly states that compensation must be paid if your reservation is not honoured and there is no alternative seat for you. I can see this being quite costly on XC, hence why TM's will be under pressure to reduce compensation payments and sort it out on the day.

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the journey.

Travelling XC from Bournemouth to Sheffield.
Carriage empty at Bournemouth apart from 4 people- and yes two are occupying our reserved seats but there are none shown on display.

Do I ask them to move? -no it would be silly.

At Leamington Spa my surname appeared with destination on display I suppose because I had had to re book the reservation post landslide.

PS Because of football fans was only just able to get on the train let alone find a seat on the return trip between Sheffield and Derby (non-stop). Compensation?

If the reservation was shown on the display, and the train was too full or people wouldn't move, then I would say no compensation. XC has done their bit and advertised your reservation.

If the reservation was not shown, then yes, compensation would be payable under NRCOC.

 

[LowLevel]

I make specific announcements when there's no labels (for crowd control reasons I cancel the lot if a heavily reserved train is short formed or if there's another reason for no labels ) advising that they're cancelled and how to claim if you can't sit down.

I can't see any other sensible way to comply with the conditions of carriage myself. Luckily I don't work with traction with naff computer systems.

 

[Starmill]

If the reservation was shown on the display, and the train was too full or people wouldn't move, then I would say no compensation. XC has done their bit and advertised your reservation.

I don't know. They have not honoured it. TPE have had to compensate me many a time because of a train I had a reserved seat on was regularly formed of 1*170 instead of 2 as booked (I think it was 1735 LDS - MAN). This inevitably resulted in my being unable to board it due to overcrowding, and having to stand on the following train because of course, I held no reservation for the train I actually travelled on.

What can also happen, as I recall from a recent Leeds to Hull journey on a single 185 that was at complete crush load between Leeds and Selby, you cannot physically get down the aisle to your seat so you think well I know a good proportion of these people are getting off at Selby and I can't fight through them so you just wait. When people do get off at Selby, someone else who was just stood up gets to your reserved seat first and then refuses to move because they saw that that seat was reserved from Leeds - not from Selby - and had gone unclaimed.

Of course if the TOC doesn't want to be liable to compensation, reservation systems that actually work are of benefit, as is organising capacity to provide for the number of people who want to travel.

 

[drbdrb]

If the reservation was shown on the display, and the train was too full or people wouldn't move, then I would say no compensation. XC has done their bit and advertised your reservation.

XC hasn't done its bit, as it will have chosen not to delay the train whilst BTP are called to deal with the person who would not move.

 

[BestWestern]

I make specific announcements when there's no labels (for crowd control reasons I cancel the lot if a heavily reserved train is short formed or if there's another reason for no labels ) advising that they're cancelled and how to claim if you can't sit down.

I can't see any other sensible way to comply with the conditions of carriage myself. Luckily I don't work with traction with naff computer systems.

I agree entirely. Same course of action here, no labels means no reservations. I make regular apologetic announcements and I make sure it gets put on the CIS (which of course everybody reads before they board....!!)

 

[embers25]

I've now also heard there is an XC Voyager with printed signs in all coaches saying seat reservations apply even when the reservation system isn't working. I hope the person just misread but that is worrying and not exactly unlikely knowing XC. This was at Leamington where I'm guessing right now with the bustitution there are lots of people turning up with reservations for wrong trains and expecting people to still move!

I also don't understand why XC are still selling advances for March on this route that don't include the bus. This is a big issue on Sunday 15th March for example where I assume eventually XC will update it but given trains only continue every 2 hours to Soton via Guildford I would assume there are going to be a lot of people who travel normal time as far as Leamington and find that from Banbury their train will only go to Reading thereby causing a 2 hour delay.

 

[strowger]

In that case you can refer the TM to Bylaw 19

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

If there are no notices indicating a particular seat is reserved, then I am not sure under what basis you could be removed from that seat.

Agreed.

I'm extremely doubtful about the whole system of "seats which appear unreserved when you take them, but are later reserved out from under you". It's poorly thought-out and doesn't work in practice because the IT is too flakey.

I would like to see someone challenge this under the bylaws.

 

[misterredmist]

I suppose these problems are inevitable on XC due to their ridiculously short trains, totally unsuitable for the long distance journeys they carry out....... Cattle Class......

 

[Starmill]

Curious one today, booked train cancelled, but the previous one arrived 55 minutes late - wedgealicious and of course I had no seat reservation.

Muchas gracias TPE. You literally cannot get it right, no matter what, seemingly.

 

[leedstraindude]

The only signs I've seen on XC lately are in coach C.

As this is the only coach where 10 minute reservations apply it says something along the lines of seats showing available in this coach can be reserved en route and you maybe asked to vacate your seat if travelling without a reservation.

 

[Busaholic]

Agreed.

I'm extremely doubtful about the whole system of "seats which appear unreserved when you take them, but are later reserved out from under you". It's poorly thought-out and doesn't work in practice because the IT is too flakey.

I would like to see someone challenge this under the bylaws.

If you receive a summons for driving at 50 mph in a 40 mph area and you can show that there were no signs to indicate the latter restriction then the case will get thrown out, with costs awarded. The whole system can only work if it is visible to everyone, and I am sure that would be the legal position.

 

[Fred Swanson]

Interesting discussion ongoing in Ireland on this very subject.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057376347