• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Astrology to solve the NHS crisis

Status
Not open for further replies.

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
And he sits on the Health Select Committee and the Committee for Science and Technology. It's not just UKIP who are utterly bonkers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ce-crisis-taking-pressure-doctors-nurses.html

Tory MP claims ASTROLOGY can solve health service crisis by taking pressure off doctors and nurses

  • David Tredinnick suggests astrology has a 'role to play' in healthcare
  • Suggests medics look to the stars to ease pressure on hospitals
  • MP for Bosworth says people who oppose astrology were 'racist'
  • He argues that 90 per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy
David Tredinnick claimed medics should look to the stars to take the 'pressure' off struggling hospitals.

The MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire argued that astrology should 'have a role to play' in healthcare.

Mr Tredinnick is a member of the influential health select committee, as well as the committee for science and technology....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,560
Location
Isle of Man
The NHS already provides funding to homeopathic hospitals in London and Bristol, so it's not that bonkers...
 

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,588
Location
Leeds
The NHS already provides funding to homeopathic hospitals in London and Bristol, so it's not that bonkers...
I've always found that amusing considering how scathing the NHS webpage on homoeopathy is. "There is no good-quality evidence that homeopathy is effective as a treatment for any health condition" indeed!
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Homeopathy serves a very useful purpose - it gives GP's an option to off-load their "worried well" with psychosomatic symptoms, rather than have them filling up GP and Hospital appointments that might be used by somebody who actually needs them. If you ever see "TEETH" in a set of notes, it means "Tried everything else, try homeopathy"!

As I once heard asked about a homeopathic remedy for headaches "Why is is one tablet for mild, two for severe? Shouldn't it be the other way around?"
 
Last edited:

Wyvern

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
1,573
I understand that Homeopathic practitioners have welcomed the dilution in funding for the speciality as it should improve its efficacy.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
It is an absolute farce that homeopathy is funded in any way in the NHS (in Glasgow as well as London and Bristol). It is based in three scientific fallacies:
1) like cures like
2) dilution makes any solution stronger
3) water has memory

The fact is that the "strongest" homeopathic medicines are in fact so dilute that you're more likely to win the lottery than to ever encounter a single molecule of the compound they claim to be treating you with! I have yet to we any good quality trials demonstrating any benefit in homeopathic medication, with all benefits in homeopathy explained either by placebo effect or other conpounding factors (for example, homeopathic practitioners spend more time within their patients, and many also use therapeutic medicines alongside their "remedies").

The vast majority of practitioners practice evidence based medicine, that is to say the treatments are supported by evidence at various levels, and healthcare practitioners furthermore contribute data to a constantly expanding knowledge base.

Astrology and homeopathy have no evidence base. If anyone can ever demonstrate the evidence that either is of any benefit, please do so to the scientific community. We are not closed-minded, racists, bullies and whatever else this MP claims of us. On the contrary, if you present a strong case with a solid evidence base, we would likely incorporate it into practice. The reason that we haven't done so is because there is simply no evidence.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
It is an absolute farce that homeopathy is funded in any way in the NHS (in Glasgow as well as London and Bristol). It is based in three scientific fallacies:
1) like cures like
2) dilution makes any solution stronger
3) water has memory

The fact is that the "strongest" homeopathic medicines are in fact so dilute that you're more likely to win the lottery than to ever encounter a single molecule of the compound they claim to be treating you with! I have yet to we any good quality trials demonstrating any benefit in homeopathic medication, with all benefits in homeopathy explained either by placebo effect or other conpounding factors (for example, homeopathic practitioners spend more time within their patients, and many also use therapeutic medicines alongside their "remedies").

The vast majority of practitioners practice evidence based medicine, that is to say the treatments are supported by evidence at various levels, and healthcare practitioners furthermore contribute data to a constantly expanding knowledge base.

Astrology and homeopathy have no evidence base. If anyone can ever demonstrate the evidence that either is of any benefit, please do so to the scientific community. We are not closed-minded, racists, bullies and whatever else this MP claims of us. On the contrary, if you present a strong case with a solid evidence base, we would likely incorporate it into practice. The reason that we haven't done so is because there is simply no evidence.

I refer the honourable member to my previous answer... :lol:

Homeopathy serves a very useful purpose - it gives GP's an option to off-load their "worried well" with psychosomatic symptoms, rather than have them filling up GP and Hospital appointments that might be used by somebody who actually needs them. If you ever see "TEETH" in a set of notes, it means "Tried everything else, try homeopathy"!

Around 50% of illnesses are self-limiting, so if the person treating it has a white coat and did 9 years plus in training, has a bone through their nose and a straw jockstrap, or is wearing a tie-died skirt and takes the Guardian, half of the time the patient will get better regardless...
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Didn't Hitler set store by Astrology?

I believe so. He also understood the dangers of smoking if I recall correctly.

Like Flamingo said homeopathy is only really useful for getting rid of the worry cases. If the NHS (in England at least) can make some money with prescriptions then more power to them - a fool and his money are soon parted as they say
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
This MP is well-known as an obsessive on this subject. At a recent hearing of the Health Select Committee, he gave his usual speech and then had to leave, at which the Chair apologised to the assembled NHSE bigwigs and stated, on the record, that the views just expressed were in no way accepted as fact by the committee. Off this particular topic, though, he is sound.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
It's a Daily Mail story, so it's either fake or out of all proportion.

Here's an article about it in the Telegraph then: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...uld-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html

You can read some of his more worrying statements here: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2014-11-21a.539.0&s=speaker:10602#g571.3
I remember when some of his friends went to Boots in Kensington high street and consumed the entire stock of homeopathic medicine. They saw that as a huge triumph, as they felt it illustrated the fact that homeopathic medicine was not effective. Of course it did nothing of the sort; it proved that it was absolutely safe to take these preparations under any circumstances, and that the only time they work is if they are in the right preparation and are taken in the right amount, as prescribed by a professional.
I hope he will tune in to what I am saying—that we must move away from this insistence on evidence-based medicine and look at evidence-based practitioners.
He's off his rocker.
 
Last edited:

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,800
It's a Daily Mail story, so it's either fake or out of all proportion.

If as you say it was fake but it was on the tv and radio and in all the major newspapers yesterday then they must have all made it up on the same day then.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,560
Location
Isle of Man
It's a Daily Mail story, so it's either fake or out of all proportion.

It's not fake- it's something he genuinely believes in.

However it probably is out of proportion- although he sits on the committee, it doesn't mean they're going to take all his proposals and put them into law next week.

Things like homeopathy or astrology have a place as a placebo.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
I don't think placebos have any other place than a double blind controlled trial. At best they are misleading and at worst unethical.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,235
Location
UK
I don't think placebos have any other place than a double blind controlled trial. At best they are misleading and at worst unethical.

But, the placebo effect works, even if you know it is a placebo.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
Do you think it is acceptable to routinely lie to patients about what medication they are getting, and whether it is working?
Yes, as the treatment (really all treatments) contains a physical element - the medication - and a psychological element, which cannot actually be administered without the placebo.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,560
Location
Isle of Man
Do you think it is acceptable to routinely lie to patients about what medication they are getting, and whether it is working?

I don't think you should tell a patient that they're getting super-powerful drugs when it is actually just a sugar pill.

But if they're told they're getting homeopathic "medicine", and they choose to believe it is a super-powerful drug rather than a cup of water, then that's not lying.

Homeopathy is a load of rubbish that shouldn't be given credence by the NHS. But, on the other hand, sending the worried well off to the homeopath is better than having them clogging up the outpatients waiting room.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
A far better-known advocate of homeopathy than Mr Tredinnick is waiting his crack at being both our ruler and head of the C of E. I'm not sure which of those propositions worries me the most. Whomever is PM will certainly get their ear bent on homeopathy and will probably enact some suitably woolly policies just to shut him up.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
Do you think it is acceptable to routinely lie to patients about what medication they are getting, and whether it is working?

I would disagree with some others who have answered this question, and I believe that it is not acceptable to deceive patients with placebo medications, regardless of your motives.

I think it is useful to refer to the four basic ethical principles here[1], which are:
  • Principle of respect for autonomy
  • Principle of nonmaleficence,
  • Principle of beneficence, and.
  • Principle of justice.

Respect for a patient's autonomy dictates that a patient has the right to be involved in decisions regarding their healthcare, and that their wishes should be respected. A key part of ensuring patient autonomy is to obtain their informed consent on the matter. Informed consent does not, of course, simply mean blindly accepting the decisions of the medical team, rather means understanding the benefits and risks, and agreeing to proceed. (Of course, consent can be withheld for any reason whatsoever (or indeed, no reason whatsoever) in consenting adults).

In order to give patients this information, we need to give them evidence. It is therefore not ethically acceptable to simply give patients placebos or homeopathic remedies on the premise that they work and have an evidence base. They do not, at least not beyond the placebo effect. The British Homeopathic Association does claim that homeopathy has an evidence base [2], however they do not address the many meta-analyses of homeopathic trials that are freely available online, demonstrating little to no overall benefit in homeopathic remedies. Some such studies point out that in higher quality trials, the benefits of homeopathy become less significant. [3] Others point out that the quality of trial data is so poor that generating decisive conclusions is simply not possible. [4]

With the principle of autonomy in mind, one should not simply prescribe homeopathic medication without explaining the rationale behind the treatment and the evidence base - which for homeopathy could be most simply described as "there is no evidence that this works, but some people feel that it helps their condition".

Non-Maleficence is the principle of not doing harm. It is hard to argue that homeopathic medications in themselves do any harm, considering that even the British Homeopathic Association is quite open that the tablets consist of natural substances in extremely dilute forms (in many cases, so dilute that the compound is no longer likely to even be present in the resulting medication) added to lactose tablets. [5] It is hard to argue that simple sugar pills can cause any harm. I would argue, however, that homeopathy in general does tend to cause patients to distrust traditional medicine, and I would be very disturbed if patients were not seeking genuine medical attention and receiving proven, evidence based treatments based on their belief that medicine "failed" them and homeopathy "saved" them. (Although I hasten to add that many homeopathic practitioners do work alongside conventional medicine, and do in fact recognise that importance of scientifically proven therapies).

Beneficence is the principle of doing good. Whilst I have no doubt in my mind that most if not all homeopathic practitioners do genuinely believe that they are helping their patients, the evidence that the homeopathic remedies provide any benefit to their patients is poor. Homeopaths generally specialise in treating chronic conditions, and relapsing-remitting conditions, which by their very nature often change without medical intervention. Examples given on the British Homeopathic Association's website include mostly (but not exclusively) examples of chronic, relapsing-remitting conditions where traditional medicine has made relatively little progress; including chronic headaches, dysmenorrhoea, chronic back pain, psoriasis, chronic sinusitis, seasonal allergic rhinitis and vertigo. [6]

Justice is the principle of fairness. I do not think it just that homeopathic remedies receive public funding whilst patients continue to wait for genuine, evidence based treatments. The NHS has only got limited funds, and I would strongly argue that these need to be used wisely to provide access to scientifically sound, evidence based treatments that provide positive outcomes for patients.

I would hope it goes without saying that all patients, including those who choose to take homeopathic remedies, should be treated with equal respect by their healthcare practitioners.

Looking through the arguments for homeopathy, I cannot support the existence of homeopathy as part of the NHS, nor can I argue that prescribing homeopathic remedies (or indeed any other placebo) can be morally justified. Whilst I would agree that some people do benefit from the placebo effect, and that the physical side effects from the medications are at worst minimal, I would suggest that prescribing homeopathic medications as potentially scientifically proven therapies cannot be ethically justified. It impedes on the patient's right to autonomy by removing the possibility for them to make a truly informed decision about their healthcare. Even if homeopathic remedies were explained to the patient as being a placebo, I do not think it just to waste valuable NHS resources on an unproven treatment when access to scientifically sound treatment on the NHS is, frankly, not as easy as it should be (although this is a whole other story that I won't go any further into).

If consenting adults wish to waste their own money on homeopathic remedies, then that is their decision. I nevertheless believe that they should be aware of the lack of evidence base in homeopathy before doing so, and believe that the many fallacious claims made by the homeopathic industry regarding evidence should be vociferously and publicly challenged by the scientific community.

References
[1] R Gillon, "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2540719/pdf/bmj00449-0050.pdf", BMJ 1994 309: pp184-8
[2] British Homeopathic Association: The Evidence Base, accessed 28/2/15
[3] A Shang et al, "Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy", Lancet 2005 366: pp726-32
[4] RT Mathie et al, "Randomised placebo-controlled trials of individualised homeopathic treatment: systematic review and meta-analysis", Systematic Reviews 2014, 3:142
[5] The Medicines; British Association of Homeopathy, accessed 28/2/15
[6] The Evidence for Homeopathy, British Association of Homeopathy, accessed 28/2/15
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Impressive post, me123! Thanks for taking the time to write it and reference it.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,754
Location
Essex
I agree me123 (impressive post as well). I think using the placebo effect with patients is broadly similar to encouraging homeopathy. I'm sure there's a few on here who are familiar with pain reducing when a cannula is flushed, however that doesn't mean that appropriate analgesia shouldn't be given as well.

I think the biggest risk with homeopathy is that a section of its patients and practitioners actively discourage evidence based medicine - anti-vaccines weirdos being the most prevalent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top